There were a lot of posts in the High E thread about how people use autoblocking belay devices to bring up a second but do not know how to release the device in order to lower the second, so I thought I would share something interesting I found the other day.

In the tech notes for the new Petzl Reverso3 (available here ) they show how to release the device by wedging the nose of a carabiner through the little loop and using the carabiner as a lever arm. They go on to specifically mention not to "use a different release method,for example with a cord, a sling, etc."

I haven't had a chance to try it (I imagine it would work similarly with an ATC-Guide) but I know these devices can be difficult to release. I was taught to girth hitch a runner through the little hole, redirect it through a carabiner on the anchor, attach it to my harness, and very slowly weight the sling.

Thoughts?

The new Reverso has a new clip point on which you can attach a carabiner which you can pull on to release the autolock friction on the device without the hassle of rigging a simple pully system.

The BD ATC-Guide has the same clip point, and can be used in the same manner.

The new Reverso, the ATC-Guide and the original Reverso can all have their autolock friction points "unlocked" when weighted by rigging a simple pully system as hinted to in the post above. When done correctly this is a safe, effective and reliable technique. The system can be backed up with prussik knots and even be used to haul a troubled partner through a tough move (provided you have the strenght to parter-weight ratio).

I will not describe the technique here however to avoid a misunderstanding that could result in improper use of the technique which can be dangerous.

I learned the technique from a Petzel rep about 5 years ago when the Reverso debuted on the market. Contact your local rep or guide for instructions on the proper use of the devices mentioned above.

In my opinion both of these devices have made climbing safer insofar that I no longer see leaders belaying "from the hip" (not a good technique). If you are a leader and do not own one of these I recommend them wholeheartedly. You are provided the ease of the grigri and the functionality of a munter without the weight or rope kinking.

A munter will not kink the rope if set up and used correctly...

It has to do with the orientation of the strand coming off of the knot. And I can't describe it without confusing myself...

If you consistantly use a munter it will twist the rope over time, causing it to "kink" up. When you reverse a munter to lower you must shift the knot to the other side of the carabiner it is tied to in order to reverse the direction of pull. This will not make a strand of the rope come off or the knot to become untied, however it will facilitate twisting of the rope's core.

Sorry I was not specific about my use of the word "kink". I did not mean that the rope would get knotted while using the munter and kink up thus complicating your belay. I ment that consistant use of a munter can twist the core of your rope and shorten its life or make it less supple to use over time.

The munter, however, is an invaluable knot, and is an excellent belay alternative if you have dropped your device, or find yourself needing to belay a second climber below and you don't have a grigri, reverso or a ATC-guide or similarly designed device.

This type of minor misunderstanding is exactly why I decline to describe techniques over these forums that I would be otherwise more than willing to share.

ala ATC-Guide



Plesse explain.



I assume you intended these to apply respectively.

double post

I suppose I should have been clearer when referring to the "little loop." I meant the new clip in point. What I am most curious about is why Petzl would specifically say _not_ to use cord or webbing through the new clip in point (I assume they are implicitly referring to the redirect/pulley method or releasing the device, explained above).

Tripp,

Just use a hip belay. Wuss.

Ped,

I actually use a device I made myself, custom made from old rusty razorblades.

It makes toproping exciting.

What are the advantages of the Reverso?

Compared to... what?

Standard Tube Style (ATC), Hip-Belay, Figure-8, Auto-Locking Mechanical Device (Gri-gri)...?

(Just feeling a bit punchy today...)

Not true either – even after accounting for your logic reversal! If I wanted to use an auto locking device (and I might in case of a significant risk of rock-fall, seizure or heart attack) I could easily lower using a Grigri without other hassles including the need to be at anchor which is not always the best place to be.




Perhaps your are being facetious. I don't even know.

Is anyone else a bit bothered by the fact that Petzl, after producing one of the worst modern belay devices ever, decided to recover by ripping off the BD design? I'd say show a little loyalty to the original designers and buy an ATC guide.

(Full disclosure: I have purchased and retired a Reverso and own neither an ATC guide nor Petzl's copy of it.)

Absolutely - that was (just) one of the things that set me off about this advertisment/post.



Agreed!

Mark,

Why would I be facetious to someone who fails to see the disadvantages of belaying a second from the hip without redirection? Hell, I don't even know what that fancy word means, I'm just a caveman.

Maybe I am just taking my crazy pills. I have cherry flavored this week!

Eaaaasy, Tripp. Red pill is the CRAZY pill. BLUE pill is the happy pill. Jeez. Get it straight.

Both you semanticists need to chill. The original Reverso still blows goats. It sucks for regular belaying, it sucks for autoblock belaying, it just plain sucks. And it's especially deadly for belaying the second from the harness. With a better device, belaying the second from the harness is downright easy when necessary, but still not something you want to do when you've got a convenient and secure top anchor.

If your name is Simon Yates, you learn how to belay without an anchor.

I belay with my teeth and my massive e-johnson, I just don't recommend it.

mmm...

This image seems appropriate...

you better watch out, I always roll with my replica. i'll knock you out with my 115lb python sportin bod.

seriously though, that picture is entirely appropriate for these discussion forums.

It's awful shiny and cute and light. Does anyone remember if the old reverso, or the BD ATC-Guide, came with the same warning that when one second is weighting the unit and making it auto-lock, if the other second falls, the unit may not lock them off?

I've been using a reverso since they came out, and honestly, I didn't know that. I feel like a jerk now, like one of those totally uninformed gumbies who didn't get proper professional instruction and would be crucified had an accident ever happene - but I honestly don't remember that warning in any directions.

I'm pretty sure that for the "old" reverso (which I own, and like for the most part), IF you were bringing up 2 2nd's on autoblock, that EACH needed to have their strand of rope with it's own separate locking biner.
(so you'd need 3 lockers all-in: one to attach Reverso to anchor, one each for each follower)

I'd imagine to avoid just such an incident as you describe.

Of course, it's been so long since I've climbed anything that I could very well just be talking outta my ass.
YMMV.