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#39448 - 09/03/08 06:27 PM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: d-elvis]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2470
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
God, I hate lawyers sometimes.

The authors, perhaps in a moment of self-awareness, have included the most comprehensive legal notice I've seen about assumption of risk. (Too bad the notice refers to climbing in the Black Hills rather than the Gunks though.) In any case, since their grades all tend to the high side, it is hard to imagine how someone relying on them could succeed in claiming to be hurt because the climb turned out to be easier than advertised.

Frankly, if anyone anywhere managed to get to court with a lawsuit against a guidebook publisher for erroneous information, I and, I imagine, horde of other climbers would volunteer our services as witness for the defense.

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#39452 - 09/03/08 07:21 PM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: rg@ofmc]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
 Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
...since their grades all tend to the high side, it is hard to imagine how someone relying on them could succeed in claiming to be hurt because the climb turned out to be easier than advertised.

As I alluded to up-thread a-ways... what happens when a climber who, using the new book, does Bunny, Laurel, and Shockleys and, thinking they are now a fairly solid 5.8 leader, gets on one of the 5.8s that hasn't been incorrectly upgraded? Something like Son of Easy O, with hard moves close to the ground,that may be tricky for some to protect, and they deck? The problem isn't finding a route easier than graded, it's finding a route a lot harder than other routes of supposedly the same grade.
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#39458 - 09/03/08 07:50 PM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: pedestrian]
BrianRI Offline
newbie

Registered: 06/10/05
Posts: 29
 Originally Posted By: pedestrian
 Originally Posted By: BrianRI
I think some of this grade creep can be attributed to the shear numbers of people climbing a route and polishing the rock.


As a self-described geezer, do you spend a lot of time in gyms?

I think perhaps this trend towards inflation has a lot to do with gym and sport climbers. I see a lot of appallingly incorrect (inflated) grades at my gym, and some of the stuff I've been on at Rumney and the New seems a little soft as well, if only to the extent that the mere presence of bolts makes protecting the moves physically easier... the authors of the guidebook in question are clearly the new kids on the block among Gunks guidebook authors; are they young enough that their earliest climbing experiences were shaped by a badly-grading gym, or sport?

I hardly go to gyms. I think you may have mis-read my post. I called the "new" grades "absurd." However, if a hold should break off or the rock becomes highly polished it is appropriate to re-grade a route in a new guidebook as Willims did with City Lights. That is not the case with the new guidebook.

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#39462 - 09/03/08 11:02 PM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: BrianRI]
bird Offline
stranger

Registered: 07/18/05
Posts: 4
Loc: NY
How the heck did Bunny become 5.8?

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#39465 - 09/04/08 12:14 AM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: bird]
gunkie Offline
member

Registered: 07/19/00
Posts: 120
Loc: New Hope, PA
 Originally Posted By: bird
How the heck did Bunny become 5.8?


Sandbag. It's at least 5.10.

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#39466 - 09/04/08 12:20 AM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: bird]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
 Originally Posted By: bird
How the heck did Bunny become 5.8?

It didn't - the new guide has it at 5.7* - my post may have suggested it was**. So to clear up any confusion, replace my mention of Bunny with Baby up-thread.

*: maybe the authors did the variant overhang, which is about easy 7, instead of going around it to the left to keep it at 5.4, the way the original route went? If so, then why not call it a variant, like Dick and Todd did in all their guides?

**: I attribute that to old-fart memory and inept typing thanks to a broken finger (and a Lortab).
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#39469 - 09/04/08 03:10 AM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: MarcC]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2470
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
 Originally Posted By: MarcC
what happens when a climber who, using the new book, does Bunny, Laurel, and Shockleys and, thinking they are now a fairly solid 5.8 leader, gets on one of the 5.8s that hasn't been incorrectly upgraded? Something like Son of Easy O, with hard moves close to the ground,that may be tricky for some to protect, and they deck?


As it turns out, the starting move on Son of EO is up to 5.9 in the new guide, so not to worry.

Y'know guys, much as I dislike the sloppiness of this guide, and as ready as I am to agree that the authors have, in some way, failed in their obligation to climbers, I really don't think it possible to blame accidents on overgrading. Climbers still bear the responsibility for their actions and have no business even suggesting that a guidebook has caused their personal errors in judgement. I'm quite sure there are enough guidebook anomalies in the world to get half the climbing population killed if climbers were really so gullible and callous about their lives. So lets not head down the road that this or any other guidebook is going to get someone hurt. In climbing, people get themselves hurt, and that's the end of that story.

I didn't get hurt, but I did fall off a 5.10 move on Dream of Wild Turkeys when a cam caught on my pants cuff during a very delicate high step. The guidebook, the cam manufacturer, and the pant fabricator all bear responsibility for this potential disaster. EMS, who sold me the pants without providing any assumption of risk warning for high steps, has the deep pockets here, so I guess I'll sue them for mental distress and loss of face. I can always go after Black Diamond for making such catchy cams and Handren for not warning about the high-step cam-snagging move later. Wish me luck, I gotta pay for my daughter's senior year.

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#39487 - 09/04/08 03:48 PM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: rg@ofmc]
Coppertone Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Newtown, CT
 Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc

I didn't get hurt, but I did fall off a 5.10 move on Dream of Wild Turkeys when a cam caught on my pants cuff during a very delicate high step. The guidebook, the cam manufacturer, and the pant fabricator all bear responsibility for this potential disaster. EMS, who sold me the pants without providing any assumption of risk warning for high steps, has the deep pockets here, so I guess I'll sue them for mental distress and loss of face. I can always go after Black Diamond for making such catchy cams and Handren for not warning about the high-step cam-snagging move later. Wish me luck, I gotta pay for my daughter's senior year.


C'mon Rich that is 100% your fault I told to do Yellow Brick Road.

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#39492 - 09/04/08 04:50 PM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: Coppertone]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
I think we all develop a comfort zone around the rating the climbs had when we first climbed them. We set them in stone, even though the routes quite possibly had different grades prior to our climbing them and may go on to have different grades afterwards. For example, to me Pink Laurel is 5.9 and the first pitch of Mother's Day Party is 5.10. I'm not sure those ratings appear in any guidebook anywhere; they're simply what I was told when I first got on them and I'm deadset on them now.

I recommended Pink Laurel to someone as a good 5.9 for them to try. I think I mentioned the guidebook rated the route as 5.8 and something about a hold that had supposedly broken off. Nevertheless, they came back to me complaining about being sandbagged because it was so stiff for 5.8. Well, duh. It's not 5.8. To me, that rating is just a typo. But if Pink Laurel became 5.10 tomorrow I'd argue the upgrade just as strenuously (much as I can't bear the upgrading of Bonnie's to 5.9). Whatever I choose to believe is right. Ipso facto.

Now we all need to learn to get over ourselves and recognize that the ratings we have cemented in our brains are more fluid outside our brains.

The new guidebook is pretty. I won't buy one because I already have 3 Gunks guidebooks and don't read on the toilet, but it's cute and harmless and, did I say?, pretty.

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#39501 - 09/04/08 07:42 PM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: dalguard]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
 Originally Posted By: dalguard
I think we all develop a comfort zone around the rating the climbs had when we first climbed them. We set them in stone, even though the routes quite possibly had different grades prior to our climbing them and may go on to have different grades afterwards.

Sure, grades are subjective, and a 5.8 for me might be a 9 for you, but a guidebook is supposedly a consensus rating, not one author's opinion. If ratings in a new guide are being adjusted by a half-grade (ie: + or - or a single letter), that's within the subjective grey area or can account for polished holds. But when routes jump 2 or 3 grades, and mostly upwards, there is something suspect (assuming it's not because holds have broken, like Dis Mantle and Mac-Reppy going from 8 to 10b and 11a, respectively).
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