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#39675 - 09/12/08 02:16 AM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: Dillbag]
empicard Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2957
Loc: LI, NY
On the subject of errors in guidebooks, I would like to point out that even the great and mighty Black Dick is not without faults. In the Nears/Millbrook Guidebook, on page 56, is the description of Gelsa, FA 1942 Fritz Wiessner, Beckett Howorth, and George Temple. On page 57 is a photograph of Hans Kraus on First Ascent of Gelsa.

what what what? An Error? MY GOD.

(PS - WILLIAMS GUIDEBOOKS RULE. THEY ARE THE GOLD STANDARD TO WHICH ALL OTHER GUNKS GUIDEBOOKS SHOULD BE COMPARED. DW, YOU ROCK. both figuratively, and quite obviously, literally.)
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#39689 - 09/12/08 01:55 PM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: empicard]
budman Offline
stranger

Registered: 06/26/08
Posts: 17
Loc: UT.
As I said in the beginning headed back to climb at Gunks, will be there in a week or so and was looking forward to the new guide book. As I just recieved mine last night,I was at least able to page through it and ck out some of the info. Used the one for Devils Tower. Info was accurate and good reading for my partner who had never been there before. Can't say as to the Needles guide as I didn't get there. As to the new Gunks guide, maybe it should have been called Trapped or something funny but it's all about marketing and people know The Gunks. Liked the photos, route related as well as the others. As to the gradings, some of the grades that were changed were bench marks by which I judged other climbs. But I know what they are and why. Dang the grade change on Low Exposure. According to Swain it was 11-, now it's 10+. Oh well I'm not as good of climber as I thought. At this point we now have three guides to one of the best climbing areas. The Library of Dick, Swain's pocket version to all of the Gunks and the noobies guide. Hopefully with all these pages of input the next edition will have some changes for the better. After reading alot of the comments on this thread I guess it's kinda like the bees on Layback. Step on their territory and their gonna get pissed. Remember it's only a GUIDE not a substitution for good judgement. Oh yeah, if you don't use the guide it's an adventure.
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#39706 - 09/13/08 12:38 AM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: budman]
Coppertone Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Newtown, CT
 Originally Posted By: budman
. Remember it's only a GUIDE not a substitution for good judgement. Oh yeah, if you don't use the guide it's an adventure.


Yes but this I would not call this a Guide, but rather a Midguide due to all of the poor and inaccurate information.


Edited by Coppertone (09/13/08 12:38 AM)

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#39707 - 09/13/08 12:57 AM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: Coppertone]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
 Originally Posted By: budman
...route related as well as the others [sic]...

This is just plain false. I gave a number of examples, that are far beyond the inaccuracy of other guides. You too will discover them if you move beyond a perfunctory glance at the contents.

 Originally Posted By: budman
After reading alot of the comments on this thread I guess it's kinda like the bees on Layback. Step on their territory and their gonna get pissed.


Well, I posted a bunch of objective lists, and could continue with a bunch more, but after a while it starts to seem like piling on. If you want to put such observations into the category of inevitable natural events, absolving the authors from any responsibility for their manifold errors, inaccuracies, and inconsistencies by suggesting the "yellow jackets" were bound to attack anyway, then of course that is your right and privilege.

Do go enjoy Maria with the new "mud slope" finish though, and get back to us.

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#39712 - 09/13/08 04:21 AM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: budman]
Coppertone Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Newtown, CT
 Originally Posted By: budman
As Step on their territory and their gonna get pissed.


Using that kind of logic you would think that any new guide book for an established area would meet tremendous criticism from the local community. That is not the case here. A terrible piece of work is being judged as just that a terrible piece of work. When the new Handren guide book came out for Red Rocks it received nothing but praise from the local community as well as visiting climbers. This is because it, unlike the new Gunks book, was well researched, thorough, accurate and overall extremely well done. I for one would have loved for a new guide book with a different approach to have been great, but unfortunately that is not what we received.

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#39750 - 09/15/08 05:24 PM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: Coppertone]
budman Offline
stranger

Registered: 06/26/08
Posts: 17
Loc: UT.
Coppertone and rg

Sorry I was totally unaware that the approach and route photos would not get you to the base of the cliff as well as the rap descriptions would lead you on so perilous journey never to return. Different people, different appeals. I definitely buy Playboy for the photos, no doubt about. Same for climbing. Never was the intellectual type, not such a good memory for the word. But visual and tactile bring out the best in some people and lead them down a different path. Still wander the desert looking for that line that appeals to me and not the average climber. Also take beta from friends who have done routes with little more than an approximate fix, key piece of beta or gear and "you should be able to do it". I just don't expect alot except to have fun. The rest I leave up to the busy bees. Some people will like this guide even with it's short commings. So far I'm drawn to investigate it's worth. Like I said if the authors are listening they will probably have pencile in hand. As to Marie, been alot of years and hadn't thought of doing it but I'll put it on my list of things to do. Hope to see you all out there having fun.
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#39775 - 09/16/08 02:39 AM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: budman]
acdnyc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 209
Loc: NYC/Kerhonkson
Is this the guide with all the pictures? Man, it's almost like someones myspace page. All the pics...I won't by one but all the kids passing through town. Feel sorry for Dick. He's gonna loose a lot of money to the funny pages of Gunks guides.
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#39792 - 09/16/08 02:16 PM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: acdnyc]
JenRed Offline
newbie

Registered: 01/29/07
Posts: 47
You don't honestly believe Dick will loose money over this new book... or do you? I'm barely a climber and even I know the difference between a "good guide book" and a "GREAT GUIDE BOOK"... I just thought I'd add my 2 cents!!!

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#39794 - 09/16/08 02:57 PM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: JenRed]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
I have to say I think Williams guide books are some the best researched and thoroughly accurate and descriptive guides in the business. Williams guides are the workhorse of guides with very little if any fluff.

Before I ever see foot on the gunk’s I purchased a guide buy Williams. I didn’t exactly get much of a feel for what this place would look like, and be like. It’s certainly not the first thing I grab to show someone who has never been to the gunk’s what this place is like. I think Williams intent was produce the most comprehensive guide of route information in small compact version and with little visual media. And has done that in spades.

With that said, I feel there is absolutely room for another guide to do what the new gunk’s guide try to do (and in my opinion failed)

Two Examples of this are:

Winter Dance
http://www.firstascentpress.com/winter-dance.html

and
Indian Creek - A Climbing Guide
by David Bloom

http://books.wildernet.com/sho132.html


They are as much as a guide as they are a incredibly beautiful photo books. As an ice climber if you don’t get 100% psyched to buy a plane ticket and head over Montana after sitting on the can reading Winter Dance you need to turn in your axes. They inspire through an impressive array of color photos and topos.

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#39795 - 09/16/08 03:38 PM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: Smike]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2677
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
I believe the sheer volume of routes is the limiting factor for what Dick has put together. There is definite room for other guides as an addendum of route and cliff photos or for a certain grade range of climbing. Areas like Red Rocks and J-Tree have many more routes and consequently you see how hard it can be to follow or even carry a comprehensive guide, as so much less detail is possible.
I love the "Trad guide to Joshua Tree" because it gives me great, color photos in an area where I find it sometimes difficult to find my route. The cost for such a small book is proportionately bigger but easily justified by the imparted guidance. I agree that something along these lines would fit well at the gunks and suspect that the new authors could do well to just clean up the first version and get it right.

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