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#38653 - 07/24/08 08:46 PM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: rg@ofmc]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
Thank god, finally a guide with a four star rating for route quality in the gunks. We have been oppressed with a measly 3 star system in the gunks for years. We still pale in comparison to the Dack new 5 ***** rating system.... can’t have it all I guess.

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#38655 - 07/24/08 10:03 PM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: rg@ofmc]
retr2327 Offline
member

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 108
"Moreover, what appears to be a sloppy approach to route description surfaces here; the verbal description and the route drawing for Red Cabbage depict the start differently from the lines drawn in the photo. The only thing less useful than redundant information is redundant information that contradicts itself."

You mean like rating Herdie Gerdie 5.8 in the route description superimposed on the picture, but 5.5 in the route superimposed on the diagram of the block? And since when does Nerdie Gerdie go as far to the right as they show it in the picture (not the diagram, which is closer to accurate)?

What a piece of crap.

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#38657 - 07/24/08 10:34 PM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: Dillbag]
empicard Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2955
Loc: LI, NY
RG- Tell us what you really think. I mean, really, don't hold back...
_________________________
tOOthless

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

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#38665 - 07/25/08 10:59 AM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: ShakesALot]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
might be appealing for the plastic pullers that use the word Dab in their vocab
_________________________
John Okner Photography

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#38666 - 07/25/08 11:32 AM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: talus]
caver Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 260
Loc: High Falls
Thanks RG for stating what many of us were thinking after being appalled by the sample pages.....!

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#38668 - 07/25/08 12:09 PM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: caver]
felix m Offline
journeyman

Registered: 05/01/06
Posts: 63
You guys crack me up. Goldstone, that opening paragraph is a piece of work. For the life of me I can't see why anyone else would bother writing another Gunks guide. Dick has spent a lifetime tirelessly climbing & documenting Trapps climbing here and approaches it through a most intimate knowlege of the routes. How many years of experience are we talking here? Hell, I hear he's even still scratching out "classics" from the depths of the Nears. I can't believe there will be any wasted space in the new NT Guide. Indeed, if he choses to re-write a route descripition, straighten a line, change a route name or any other historical info no big deal. He's earned that right, and I for one am ok with that. Contrast that with the work of these 2 imposters....

Now, without knowing of their guidebook endeavor, I will confess to casually knowing Zach & Rachel and find them to be the nicest of people, Damn, Rachel even tirelessly belayed my 8 year old on that basterdized version of snooky's. Yeah, in my book they are pretty cool people, and so is Dick Williams, and we should all be greatful to have the choices we have. As for me I'm still using a found copy of Swain's original that my 20 year old colored in, although I keep hoping to find a new Williams.

BTW that photo of Clune is great. Man, Adida's Countrys were the greatest shoe ever. Dick Shockley soloed all his pop's routes here in them.

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#38681 - 07/26/08 04:32 AM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: felix m]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2470
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Felix, I agree with most of what you say. I don't know the authors but bear them no personal ill will and am happy to stipulate that they are indeed the nicest of people. I think that Extreme Angles has performed a public service by reprinting Dumais' book on the Gunks, and their stopgap guides to the Needles and Devils Tower provide current information at a time when better works are out of print. But as you say, the standard for completeness and accuracy in the Gunks is very high, and I find it as incomprehensible as you do that someone would cavalierly toss together another guide to an area that is so well and expertly covered by in-print material.

And beyond the Gunks, we have the beautiful examples of Jerry Handren's guide to Red Rock and Jim Lawyer's and Jeremy Haas's guide to the Adirondack Rock as examples of meticulous care in preparation and superb attention to useful and relevant production values. These guys have shown the way, and one might be pardoned for hoping that other authors would build on their examples of excellence.

When you put a work in the public domain, the work is destined to be judged on its merits, not on the niceness of the creators, and I find almost no merit in the sample, neither when judged by itself nor certainly not when compared to the exemplars mentioned above. ShakesAlot thinks I was overly harsh; I can only respond by saying that I restrained myself.

One of the things I didn't mention was the price: for what I suspect are relatively few routes and an extravagant helping of full-color fluff, you pay $35. Handren's book is $36, Lawyer's is $37. Grey Dick, with 495 routes, written over a 3-year period by a guy who went out six days a week and either led or followed every pitch in preparation for the revision, is $29.95. Maybe if The Gunks cost $10 you could say you get what you pay for and it's good for the visiting climber. But to have to pay more for far less is beyond belief---I really can't grasp what the authors could have been thinking.

Perhaps the book itself is better (although somehow I doubt it); I made it very clear that my comments applied to the sample.

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#38690 - 07/27/08 08:43 PM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: rg@ofmc]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
I'm waiting for the SuperTopo.

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#38796 - 08/02/08 07:19 PM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: dalguard]
Jim Lawyer Offline
member

Registered: 08/23/00
Posts: 157
Loc: Pompey, NY
I searched around the Extreme Angles web site for the "sample"...where is it? I must be overlooking something...or was it taken down?

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#38797 - 08/03/08 01:44 AM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: Jim Lawyer]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2470
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Jim, it looks like they took it down. By the way, I met Zach and Rachel in the Near Trapps a week ago and they are indeed very nice people (and they could certainly could have been pardoned for failing to be nice to me). We had a bit of a discussion, which I at least thought was cordial, though I cannot report any meeting of the minds. They did explain to me what they are trying to do, but I think either they if they choose to or else their guidebook when it comes out should do the talking.

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