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#38778 - 08/01/08 03:13 PM A Dead Piton's Final Words
rg@ofmc Offline
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Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
"When the load came, I snapped. Most of me, invisible inside the crack, had already rusted away, and what little remained broke immediately upon impact. I saw the leader who clipped me vanish below---don't know what happened to him. I was old and weak; I tried, but could not perform my duty."

CSI Investigator Williams found the following forensic evidence:

.

The second shot provides a closer view of the extensive rusted-away section.

Photos by Richard Goldstone and Dick Williams. Hand curtesy of Gregory Rukavina.

-------------

The real story: The pin was on Pas de Deux. Dick gave it a testing tap with the hammer and it snapped. He didn't beat on it. This piton would not have held even a very short fall.

Some history: This is one of the fixed pins installed by John Stannard more than 30 years ago. Stannard made these specially of extra-thick stock and coated them to resist corrosion. They were arguably the most reliable fixed protection in the world at the time, and have have proven their worth and durability over the years. However, thirty years in a crack that channels running water is a long time, and even the best fixed gear can eventually provide an illusion of security where none exists.

Be careful out there, folks.

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#38779 - 08/01/08 03:44 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: rg@ofmc]
MarcC Offline
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Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Along those lines, the scariest I ever saw was some 25 years ago when Dick showed me the 3 belay pins on Co-Ex that he had removed. The best of the 3 looked like the one in the photos above.
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#38781 - 08/01/08 05:13 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: MarcC]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2679
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Nice reminder. I almost miss some of the old pins that used to populate the trapps. We didn't know any better and carried way less gear as they were right where you wanted them most of the time. Good thing we didn't fall much.
Good on Dick to still carry a hammer. I suspect that there only a few respected folk who could carry them without getting stared down.

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#38782 - 08/01/08 05:31 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: chip]
Coppertone Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Newtown, CT
Please have him check the pin on Fat City \:\)

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#38783 - 08/01/08 05:37 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: chip]
phlan Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/11/00
Posts: 2778
Loc: Gardiner, NY
...looks better than a lot of failed metal I've seen over the years. mebbe it could still be used as a stubby ;-)

beach lines and river lines will tell where the steel cracked open slowly vs where it fractured quickly

there's this hammer I have that is the perfect size... small enough to be inconspicuous but big enough to do the job (at one point there was a nut tool on the market that incorporated a small hammer - I thought that was a great idea - are they still available?)
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#38784 - 08/01/08 06:57 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: rg@ofmc]
Julie Offline
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Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
Nice, RG \:\)

Was that on the first pitch? Is there a gear placement now?

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#38787 - 08/01/08 09:42 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: Julie]
dw@vmc Offline
stranger

Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 10
The piton on Pas de Deux was on P1 about 2/3rds the way up in a hole next to a thin horizontal crack which I cleaned out with a nut tool. I was following the pitch so didn't have enough gear to see if there something else that would work. I suspect a small Black Alien size cam or smaller or maybe a Trango Ball Nutz might work. Many climbers used to use this pin when climbing City Lights for that runout section.
FAT CITY Pin, I wanted to replace that pin about 5-7 years ago. When I tested it I realized that the soft iron pin would break if I tried to remove it. It seemed solid but who knows how rusted it is inside the crack.

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#38788 - 08/01/08 10:02 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: dw@vmc]
chip Offline
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Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2679
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
I was afraid that the pin in question was that one. I liked thinking it was actually worth clipping.

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#38789 - 08/01/08 11:45 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: chip]
dw@vmc Offline
stranger

Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 10
Sorry about LePlie, I meant PasDeDeux, that's embarrassing.

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#38791 - 08/02/08 12:38 AM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: dw@vmc]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2679
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
We knew what you meant when you cross referenced to City Lights.

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#38976 - 08/11/08 05:45 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: chip]
TrippleB Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/07/07
Posts: 34
Loc: NY
and yet the Fat City pin remains, with thoughts of replacing it shut down by nay sayers...why use a fresh and secure piece of iron like the FA when we can use two lobes of a black alien :).
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#38977 - 08/11/08 06:00 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: TrippleB]
pedestrian Offline
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Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
 Originally Posted By: TrippleB
and yet the Fat City pin remains, with thoughts of replacing it shut down by nay sayers...why use a fresh and secure piece of iron like the FA when we can use two lobes of a black alien :).


I guess you missed the part where DW said that, as of several years ago, he was certain that attempting to remove the Fat City pin would break it off and leave half of it stuck in the crack...

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#38979 - 08/11/08 06:48 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: pedestrian]
Julie Offline
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Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
Is there a plan to check for gear (though in my memory, there is little or none) or to replace the Pas de Deux pin?

I hope so, and I'd be happy to help in any way I can, short of running it out up there ... it would be a shame to lose that route.

Edit: Looks like someone just posted about the 40' runout on the left-hand finish for City Lights, in the Routes section: this runout (from just after the flake almost all the way to the bolts) was more like 40 feet. That sounds like groundfall range to me.


Edited by Julie (08/11/08 08:31 PM)

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#38991 - 08/12/08 12:20 AM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: Julie]
rg@ofmc Offline
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Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Julie, Dick and I both posted responses to the runout post. Perhaps the best solution is to move right on Patty Duke after the flake, as Dick says. But since you can still get a nest of microcams where the bad pin used to be, I don't think the level of protection for either Pas de Deux or the original City Lights has changed enormously, although it is true that the demands on the skill of the protector are now greater.

The irony of this discussion is that people who have been clipping that pin without backing it up have been seriously running it out for some time now.

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#38992 - 08/12/08 12:21 AM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: Julie]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2679
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
See RG's note on the other thread.

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#38994 - 08/12/08 12:41 AM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: rg@ofmc]
Julie Offline
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Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
But since you can still get a nest of microcams where the bad pin used to be, I don't think the level of protection for either Pas de Deux or the original City Lights has changed enormously ... The irony of this discussion is that people who have been clipping that pin without backing it up have been seriously running it out for some time now.


For Pas de Deus ... nb that the many published guidebook descriptions were written assuming that pin was good; they imply (regardless of what we now know) one won't wander into death fall range.

If there's decent gear - fine, leave it be. I'm not entirely sure I agree that a black alien qualifies as 'decent' gear, or more aptly, as common gear on a standard rack (I don't typically take mine on 5.8) - so perhaps an addendum to the description, to be sure to carry such small stuff, is in order.

But it sounds like from what you said in the other thread, that there is enough gear up there. I'm glad to hear that - I don't envy the guy who climbed to the belay from the flake on City Lights without gear.

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#39000 - 08/12/08 04:02 AM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: Julie]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
 Originally Posted By: Julie
...I don't envy the guy who climbed to the belay from the flake on City Lights without gear.

As Rich said, even if he clipped that pin on PdD, he was climbing that stretch without gear.

There seems to be something that some posters here are forgetting. With a minor handful of exceptions, every pin in the Gunks is suspect.If you are relying only on a resident pin as your sole protection, you are running it out. Assume any resident pin will fail in a fall. Protect accordingly.

"Just 'cause you clip it doesn't mean you trust it." -Rich Perch at a climbers' meeting with the Trust, circa 25 years ago.
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#39001 - 08/12/08 05:25 AM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: MarcC]
rg@ofmc Offline
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Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
I still think Pas de Deux is basically the same without the pin, there is good pro below and above where the pin used to be. Perhaps the lower placements might have been skipped because of the fat-looking fixed pin winking above; of course this will no longer be the case.

City Lights was 5.5 R with the fixed pin (when it was good). It seems to me that this rating would stay the same with the small gear that replaced it (i.e. it wouldn't become 5.5 X).

My comments about what goes in that crack are based on just a glance while following, it could be that the next size cam up from Black A will fit somewhere, or some small wires, possibly opposed, might work too.

Climbers who do not like the looks of the 5.5 R section have two options. They can still move right to Patty Duke or they can step left to the better pro on Pas de Deux. There is of course also an X-rated option, but you do not have to embrace that invitation if you don't want to.

I think replacing this particular pin is problematic. It went in a hole and broke off in there; I don't think another medium angle will go now. So the replacement would probably have to be a blade of some sort, in a place that apparently collects water. The new placement would be likely to degrade far more quickly than the Stannard special that was there before, and so become a lurking danger far more quickly. Isn't it ultimately alot better to choose to do runout climbing or choose to move away from it rather than to clip something that may be inadequate and think you have pro when you don't?

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#39004 - 08/12/08 01:07 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: rg@ofmc]
Coppertone Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Newtown, CT
 Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc

I think replacing this particular pin is problematic. It went in a hole and broke off in there; I don't think another medium angle will go now. So the replacement would probably have to be a blade of some sort, in a place that apparently collects water. The new placement would be likely to degrade far more quickly than the Stannard special that was there before, and so become a lurking danger far more quickly. Isn't it ultimately alot better to choose to do runout climbing or choose to move away from it rather than to clip something that may be inadequate and think you have pro when you don't?


This is also the Gunks we are talking about, an island of traditional climbing in an ever more bolted world. Unless there is absolutely no alternative and the pin placement will remain sound then we really should not be putting in new pins. There have been some pins replaced in the past few years where there is gear and the pin was unnecessary such as Comedy and No Glow.

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#39011 - 08/12/08 04:50 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: Coppertone]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
This is also the Gunks we are talking about, an island of traditional climbing in an ever more bolted world. Unless there is absolutely no alternative and the pin placement will remain sound then we really should not be putting in new pins.

Right. Along these lines, we may in some cases have to accept that climbs change. Everyone understands that if holds break or rockfall alters a pitch, the climb becomes different. We haven't arrived at the point yet at which people support bolting on a hold in a place where one has broken off. In this case, a pin nowhere near the crux climbing is gone, leaving viable protection alternatives at a spot where there are also route alternatives to the unprotected climbing. Moreover, replacing the pin is problematic and seems likely to replicate the dangers of the original situation.

Taking all these things into consideration, I think the best resolution is to admit that the climb is now different. (Or, considering the advanced deterioration of the pin in question, that the actual nature of the route is now apparent.) This does point out that a leader who happens upon a route and is expecting a certain level of difficulty and/or protection is still the final arbiter of what dangers and difficulties he or she is willing to confront. A guidebook, topo, or verbal description can be wrong or out of date, or the leader may have misjudged the descriptions and find themselves in the wrong place. They and they alone have to decide whether to move up, traverse, or retreat; that wisdom is theirs to apply, it cannot be supplied by a guidebook or a discussion forum.

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#39025 - 08/12/08 09:19 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: rg@ofmc]
retr2327 Offline
member

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 108
"This does point out that a leader who happens upon a route and is expecting a certain level of difficulty and/or protection is still the final arbiter of what dangers and difficulties he or she is willing to confront"

FWIW, at least with the pin gone, the leader's evaluation of the level of protection is less likely to be distorted by the misleading comfort of a seeminly reliable pin . . . .

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#39043 - 08/13/08 01:08 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: rg@ofmc]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
I'm still waiting for someone to replace the pin on Laurel. Since it was pulled no one ever climbs it anymore.

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#39044 - 08/13/08 01:10 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: Smike]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
 Originally Posted By: Smike
I'm still waiting for someone to replace the pin on Laurel. Since it was pulled no one ever climbs it anymore.


No, no one ever climbs it anymore because it's too busy and you have to wait in line.

[/Yogi]

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#40315 - 10/01/08 01:23 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: Mike Rawdon]
sketchy john Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 17
Loc: Long Island New York
THe runout end of the pitch isn't the crux? My 2 cents... I appreciate that someone had the sense to test it gently while seconding, but there are some risks in this behavior. Especially with omni-directional hammer aided pulls (I'm thinking about Julie and her hammer).
The fat city, criss cross or try again pins are tested regularly. Same with the bolts on keep on struttin and arrow. What's worse??? the hidden danger of a manked pin that logs little air time or an incompetent leader that logs plenty?
Heres to the onsite climber!!!


Edited by sketchy john (10/01/08 01:25 PM)

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#40348 - 10/01/08 11:16 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: sketchy john]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Sketchy, not too clear what you are referring to, but the purportedly but not really runout end of City Lights and/or Pas de Deux (depending on which way you go) is nowhere near being the crux of the route.

The rest of your point is even less clear to me. You seem to be speaking of risks involved in removing fixed protection that is dangerously inadequate, but all your references seem to be to fixed protection which, at least according to your standard that it hasn't pulled or broken yet, is adequate.

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#40349 - 10/01/08 11:47 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: sketchy john]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
 Originally Posted By: sketchy john
there are some risks in this behavior. Especially with omni-directional hammer aided pulls (I'm thinking about Julie and her hammer).


Umm, err, just wear safety goggles and you'll be fine?? You do always climb with safety goggles, right??

Seriously, rg is being awfully nice here. Charitable, even...

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#40365 - 10/02/08 02:59 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: sketchy john]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
wha ???

I've only used a hammer once, and tried to be careful about using it in light of my inexperience. So, what's yer point?

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#40391 - 10/03/08 03:40 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: Julie]
nerdom Offline
Pooh-Bah *

Registered: 09/07/01
Posts: 2483
Loc: Davis Sq., MA
Good thread insofar as reminding ourselves that those old pins are totally suspect!! Keep a screamer or two on hand at least, for that one pin you know you need, but don't really trust. Ever since a friend easily wiggled out the knifeblade piton that used to be in the potato chip flake not far below the anchor on Broken Sling (which I'd blithely clipped many times, even though there's other gear to be had), revealing the last two inches or so of the blade to be no thicker than tin foil, I've been very wary of Gunks pins!

But I do love those honker angle irons! Especially the shiny new, replacement ones!
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#40392 - 10/03/08 04:18 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: Julie]
sketchy john Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 17
Loc: Long Island New York
I like the pins. They show you where the line goes. When I lead High E onsight in 1991 there were 5 pins on the last pitch alone.
But clipping one or falling on one - ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME. Gunks pins/bolts were placed when gear options were extremely limited. You have good gear right next to the pin on Never Never Land. Birdland is a sport climb, there’s a pod for a blue metolius 2 ft right of the second bolt on arrow. You could wander around and stumble into 3 different lines above the bolts on PDD (all in grade).
My point was why test pins, why post on a website that supplies beta to gumbies that “I tested it and it seemed sound” why NOT pull em all. We don't treat fixed cams with such respect. It drives me nuts to hear my friends say they fell on the try again pin 10 times over 4 different days before the redpoint. I feel an associated liability to these idiots for not lecturing them. “THE LEADER NEVER FALLS” My 2 cents, clean em all and If you can clean out the hole to accept a small wire or micro cam more power to you.
But to clip, let alone rely on a 20 year old pin for fall protection is crazy.

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#40395 - 10/03/08 06:05 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: sketchy john]
empicard Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2957
Loc: LI, NY
loud talk from the new guy!
;\)
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Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

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#40396 - 10/03/08 06:12 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: empicard]
sketchy john Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 17
Loc: Long Island New York
I got an Idea for a fundraiser. Auction the old pins for hood ornaments. The cop can shove your ticket in them when you park in the overlook all day on a Saturday in November.


Edited by sketchy john (10/03/08 06:13 PM)

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#40404 - 10/03/08 11:42 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: sketchy john]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Sketchy, I don't think I ever saw 5 fixed pins on High E. The trustworthiness of your memory in this regard is undercut by the fact that you seem to remember bolts on PDD, where there are none and have never been any.

Your comment, "why test pins, why post on a website that supplies beta to gumbies that “I tested it and it seemed sound,” makes it sound as if somebody certified online that this or that piton is trustworthy. Nothing of the sort has ever happened, and selectively quoting Dick on the Fat City pin is extremely misleading.

For the record, what he said is

"When I tested it I realized that the soft iron pin would break if I tried to remove it. It seemed solid but who knows how rusted it is inside the crack."

Reading that as misleading gumbies (there are gumbies climbing Fat City?) is a truly mighty stretch.

As for pulling them all, I almost agree with you. Maybe not all, but I think that a large percentage of the fixed pins now in place should go, and that a fixed pin should be a last-ditch response to a seriously unprotectable difficulty of some magnitude. But this is far from a universal opinion; even in this thread there are comments suggesting missing fixed protection needs to be replaced. Removing and not replacing existing fixed protection risks starting a piton war, returning us to the bad old days of crack scarring. We've seen the results of purism extremists at work and I think most of us feel any "victories" they won were Pyhrric, with the scarred rock the final and enduring victim.

The net result is that while there are quite a few people ready to criticize, there are only a few public-spirited individuals who are willing to go to the trouble to carry a hammer and take time out of their climbing day to test fixed pro on the routes they are climbing. If the pin seems sound, it is redriven and left as is. The only ones removed are those that are unquestionably a danger to the unwary. Most of the time, as in PDD/CL, there is really no need to put another pin back in.

The whole situation is really a bit weird. We now have a situation in which a large number of climbers, perhaps a majority, have little or no knowlege of the use of pitons, do not own any pitons, and have never placed or removed any pitons. They now seem to depend on a dwindling coterie of old farts, who are getting older by the minute, and a few local climbers with big-wall and alpine experience to ``maintain'' the cliffs for them.

We hear pleas about this or that needing to happen, always with an undertone of entitlement: somebody needs to do something about this for me because, by god, it's dangerous. I honestly don't recognize anything in this attitude that I think of as part of a climber's credo. When you step onto the rock, your safety is your responsibilty, and you bloody well better be ready to deal with whatever you find, including the unexpected absence of a piton, which may well have been no good anyway, or a loose or missing hold.

It's not a damn gym where you complain to the owner that the tape is missing on a critical jib. If there are people around who are willing to maintain the fixed protection, we should certainly be grateful for their efforts, but it is wrong and unseemly to assign any iota of responsibility for our safety to anyone else.

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#40412 - 10/04/08 02:30 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: rg@ofmc]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2679
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
"We hear pleas about this or that needing to happen, always with an undertone of entitlement: somebody needs to do something about this for me because, by god, it's dangerous. I honestly don't recognize anything in this attitude that I think of as part of a climber's credo. When you step onto the rock, your safety is your responsibilty, and you bloody well better be ready to deal with whatever you find, including the unexpected absence of a piton, which may well have been no good anyway, or a loose or missing hold.

It's not a damn gym where you complain to the owner that the tape is missing on a critical jib. If there are people around who are willing to maintain the fixed protection, we should certainly be grateful for their efforts, but it is wrong and unseemly to assign any iota of responsibility for our safety to anyone else."

AMEN!

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#40416 - 10/05/08 08:40 AM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: rg@ofmc]
redtag Offline
journeyman

Registered: 06/26/07
Posts: 98
indeed brother...amen to that

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#40432 - 10/06/08 01:19 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: redtag]
sketchy john Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 17
Loc: Long Island New York
Sorry RG I meant no disrespect to you or Dicks efforts. I was referring to the bolted anchor at the end of P1.
I know you guys would never certify fixed protection but what I’ve seen over the last 18 years at the gunks (and my relatively limited 28 years climbing) is that as gear has evolved leaders have demonstrated an increasing pretense to rely on it and you, Dick, and the Rangers have seen this too. Maybe it’s the gym rat or sport climbing mentality that “all gear is good” that got us here. I’ve climbed with a lot of newbies over the past 8 years that have never built or equalized a gear anchor, never placed/cleaned a tri-cam, think that they should be leading 5.10, after climbing outdoors for a season, because that’s what they climb in the gym. They jump on routes like arrow because the crux is bolted or birdland because they hear there’s at least 10 pins (ground to top).
What I see on a busy weekend makes me sick. In 1990 you heard about a lead fall a few times a week, now you see it first hand 5-6 day. Christ, I saw a guy a few months ago (who had to borrow a chalk bag because he forgot his) doing P2 of modern times, with a piece at the start of the business at the lip of the roof clipped to a 4 ft runner then clipped to a 1 foot quickdraw which was clipped to the rope. his only other piece was 30 ft below that. He climbed through the first and second roof, changed his mind, start to down climb a move or two, (enough to assure his leg was securely behind the rope) then fall 30 ft head first upside down on his single piece of protection. He should be dead. And you or I are expected to clean up the mess.
These same gumbies with a head full of confidence from their conquest of climbs like arrow and never never land are now trying other 5.10s that they hear have pins (or bolts) at the crux, hangdogging the whole way, and falling repeatedly on these, the very same fixed pins which you and I love, and are the reason our proud lines don’t look like serenity crack.
My point was simply this - if the pin/bolt (fixed protection) or mid route fixed tat (bail) anchors weren’t there and proud lines like try again, criss cross, fat city, keep on struttin, arrow… were changed to R/X maybe, just maybe, these idiots wouldn’t launch themselves into the breech and test these 20 year old artifacts. And yes, I wouldn’t mind walking down a little further to rap, or fixing a belay mid route, just like the old bold days when passes were buttons and the leader never falls.

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#40433 - 10/06/08 01:26 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: sketchy john]
sketchy john Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 17
Loc: Long Island New York
Oh and how about this weekend:
Frustration syndrome, the stand, Wasp, Honkey tonk woman, Mincer into Harvest moon, white pillar, hang 10, up yours and elder cleavage direct

Not bad for an old guy

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#40435 - 10/06/08 02:12 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: sketchy john]
Coppertone Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Newtown, CT
 Originally Posted By: sketchy john
Oh and how about this weekend:
Frustration syndrome, the stand, Wasp, Honkey tonk woman, Mincer into Harvest moon, white pillar, hang 10, up yours and elder cleavage direct

Not bad for an old guy


Wow your great. Can I follow you so I can learn how the climb the right way. Can I spray too? Did you clip the bolt on Honkey Tonk Woman relying on that to keep you safe?

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#40438 - 10/06/08 02:36 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: Coppertone]
sketchy john Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 17
Loc: Long Island New York
You bet I clipped the bolt then cursed swains name for calling it PG, Then climbed it clean onsight to the top. How'd you do on it?
I'll tell you what, I'll post some photos from the weekend and call it a trip report so I don't offend your sensibilities.
And if climbing "the right way" means sharing space, a limited resource and not being carried out on a litter, then yea, I'll share a rope with you.

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#40443 - 10/06/08 03:28 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: sketchy john]
Coppertone Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Newtown, CT
 Originally Posted By: sketchy john
You bet I clipped the bolt then cursed swains name for calling it PG, Then climbed it clean onsight to the top. How'd you do on it?
I'll tell you what, I'll post some photos from the weekend and call it a trip report so I don't offend your sensibilities.
And if climbing "the right way" means sharing space, a limited resource and not being carried out on a litter, then yea, I'll share a rope with you.


I don't know that picture is kind of scary. Not sure I could look at that all day.

I've done Honkey Tonk Woman, clipped the bolt as well as well as some sketchy brassies too. Not really a big fan though as it was very nondescript, uninteresting climbing and I do like slab.

Had a pretty good day climbing yesterday as well, and not a single fixed piece on any of the routes that we did outside of the anchors.

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#40445 - 10/06/08 05:11 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: Coppertone]
empicard Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2957
Loc: LI, NY
hows this for thread derailment:
once you've placed that first bolt on honky tonk women, why not a second? why would keep it PG/R above the bolt? thats just silly.
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tOOthless

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#40447 - 10/06/08 05:37 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: sketchy john]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2362
Loc: Boston
Hey Sketchy John,

I won't deny what you see. I'm sure it's out there. But I know personally plenty of new climbers who frequent the Gunks. They're just the kind you hate - they probably climb almost as much in the gym as they do on real rock.

But they sure don't climb the way you think they do. And they don't have the attitude you think they do. They're thoughtful people who value their own lives. They know that trad climbing is not the same as the gym (duh). They work their way up through the grades, and rarely fall. They sew up the routes. They don't trust old fixed pins, and when they must rely on them to protect a crux sequence, they use a screamer just in case, and make sure they're ready to get on the route before they leave the ground. Ready to get on the route means they're solid at the grade, and can downclimb from the crux if need be. They don't start lead climbing until they've spent enough time on the ground building gear anchors that more experienced folks have given the a-ok that they feel confident in them.

You describe a bunch of morons who are bent on self destruction. You know any such people personally? Because I know a lot of beginner climbers, and none of them are anything like that.

GO

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#40452 - 10/06/08 06:10 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: empicard]
Coppertone Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Newtown, CT
 Originally Posted By: empicard
hows this for thread derailment:
once you've placed that first bolt on honky tonk women, why not a second? why would keep it PG/R above the bolt? thats just silly.


I agree with that sentiment. As a bonus it would serve to occupy sport climbers with a bad route that isn't much to climb other than the ease of clipping bolts, just like Sente.

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#40455 - 10/06/08 10:00 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: empicard]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
 Originally Posted By: empicard
hows this for thread derailment:
once you've placed that first bolt on honky tonk women, why not a second? why would keep it PG/R above the bolt? thats just silly.


Because they appreciate the difference between a bold route and a death route.

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#40478 - 10/07/08 04:31 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: Coppertone]
nerdom Offline
Pooh-Bah *

Registered: 09/07/01
Posts: 2483
Loc: Davis Sq., MA
"I agree with that sentiment. As a bonus it would serve to occupy sport climbers with a bad route that isn't much to climb other than the ease of clipping bolts, just like Sente."

aw c'mon, i like Sente! It's fun, balancy climbing. What's not to like about it? Unless you just don't like the bolts? You're just being elitist!
_________________________
we're all living proof that nothing lasts

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#40482 - 10/07/08 05:05 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: nerdom]
retr2327 Offline
member

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 108
"You're just being elitist!"

You say that like it's a bad thing . . .

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#40493 - 10/07/08 06:53 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: nerdom]
Coppertone Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Newtown, CT
 Originally Posted By: nerdom
"I agree with that sentiment. As a bonus it would serve to occupy sport climbers with a bad route that isn't much to climb other than the ease of clipping bolts, just like Sente."

aw c'mon, i like Sente! It's fun, balancy climbing. What's not to like about it? Unless you just don't like the bolts? You're just being elitist!


Please the only reason Sente gets climbed is because it has bolts. If there were not bolts it certainly wouldn't get led and I doubt very much anyone would bother to set it up as a TR. Its not exactly a quality climb.

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#40516 - 10/08/08 04:47 AM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: Coppertone]
redtag Offline
journeyman

Registered: 06/26/07
Posts: 98
ahhh bullshit....i can think of a bunch of climbs that suck...sente isnt one of them.....though i think it would be better without or with fewer bolts....exactly the kind of face climbing thats fun when its runout....R rated would be a good sente...

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