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#38976 - 08/11/08 05:45 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: chip]
TrippleB Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/07/07
Posts: 34
Loc: NY
and yet the Fat City pin remains, with thoughts of replacing it shut down by nay sayers...why use a fresh and secure piece of iron like the FA when we can use two lobes of a black alien :).
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TrippleB, because TripleB just doesnt look as cool.


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#38977 - 08/11/08 06:00 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: TrippleB]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
 Originally Posted By: TrippleB
and yet the Fat City pin remains, with thoughts of replacing it shut down by nay sayers...why use a fresh and secure piece of iron like the FA when we can use two lobes of a black alien :).


I guess you missed the part where DW said that, as of several years ago, he was certain that attempting to remove the Fat City pin would break it off and leave half of it stuck in the crack...

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#38979 - 08/11/08 06:48 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: pedestrian]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
Is there a plan to check for gear (though in my memory, there is little or none) or to replace the Pas de Deux pin?

I hope so, and I'd be happy to help in any way I can, short of running it out up there ... it would be a shame to lose that route.

Edit: Looks like someone just posted about the 40' runout on the left-hand finish for City Lights, in the Routes section: this runout (from just after the flake almost all the way to the bolts) was more like 40 feet. That sounds like groundfall range to me.


Edited by Julie (08/11/08 08:31 PM)

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#38991 - 08/12/08 12:20 AM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: Julie]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2468
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Julie, Dick and I both posted responses to the runout post. Perhaps the best solution is to move right on Patty Duke after the flake, as Dick says. But since you can still get a nest of microcams where the bad pin used to be, I don't think the level of protection for either Pas de Deux or the original City Lights has changed enormously, although it is true that the demands on the skill of the protector are now greater.

The irony of this discussion is that people who have been clipping that pin without backing it up have been seriously running it out for some time now.

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#38992 - 08/12/08 12:21 AM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: Julie]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
See RG's note on the other thread.

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#38994 - 08/12/08 12:41 AM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: rg@ofmc]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
But since you can still get a nest of microcams where the bad pin used to be, I don't think the level of protection for either Pas de Deux or the original City Lights has changed enormously ... The irony of this discussion is that people who have been clipping that pin without backing it up have been seriously running it out for some time now.


For Pas de Deus ... nb that the many published guidebook descriptions were written assuming that pin was good; they imply (regardless of what we now know) one won't wander into death fall range.

If there's decent gear - fine, leave it be. I'm not entirely sure I agree that a black alien qualifies as 'decent' gear, or more aptly, as common gear on a standard rack (I don't typically take mine on 5.8) - so perhaps an addendum to the description, to be sure to carry such small stuff, is in order.

But it sounds like from what you said in the other thread, that there is enough gear up there. I'm glad to hear that - I don't envy the guy who climbed to the belay from the flake on City Lights without gear.

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#39000 - 08/12/08 04:02 AM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: Julie]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
 Originally Posted By: Julie
...I don't envy the guy who climbed to the belay from the flake on City Lights without gear.

As Rich said, even if he clipped that pin on PdD, he was climbing that stretch without gear.

There seems to be something that some posters here are forgetting. With a minor handful of exceptions, every pin in the Gunks is suspect.If you are relying only on a resident pin as your sole protection, you are running it out. Assume any resident pin will fail in a fall. Protect accordingly.

"Just 'cause you clip it doesn't mean you trust it." -Rich Perch at a climbers' meeting with the Trust, circa 25 years ago.
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#39001 - 08/12/08 05:25 AM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: MarcC]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2468
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
I still think Pas de Deux is basically the same without the pin, there is good pro below and above where the pin used to be. Perhaps the lower placements might have been skipped because of the fat-looking fixed pin winking above; of course this will no longer be the case.

City Lights was 5.5 R with the fixed pin (when it was good). It seems to me that this rating would stay the same with the small gear that replaced it (i.e. it wouldn't become 5.5 X).

My comments about what goes in that crack are based on just a glance while following, it could be that the next size cam up from Black A will fit somewhere, or some small wires, possibly opposed, might work too.

Climbers who do not like the looks of the 5.5 R section have two options. They can still move right to Patty Duke or they can step left to the better pro on Pas de Deux. There is of course also an X-rated option, but you do not have to embrace that invitation if you don't want to.

I think replacing this particular pin is problematic. It went in a hole and broke off in there; I don't think another medium angle will go now. So the replacement would probably have to be a blade of some sort, in a place that apparently collects water. The new placement would be likely to degrade far more quickly than the Stannard special that was there before, and so become a lurking danger far more quickly. Isn't it ultimately alot better to choose to do runout climbing or choose to move away from it rather than to clip something that may be inadequate and think you have pro when you don't?

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#39004 - 08/12/08 01:07 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: rg@ofmc]
Coppertone Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Newtown, CT
 Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc

I think replacing this particular pin is problematic. It went in a hole and broke off in there; I don't think another medium angle will go now. So the replacement would probably have to be a blade of some sort, in a place that apparently collects water. The new placement would be likely to degrade far more quickly than the Stannard special that was there before, and so become a lurking danger far more quickly. Isn't it ultimately alot better to choose to do runout climbing or choose to move away from it rather than to clip something that may be inadequate and think you have pro when you don't?


This is also the Gunks we are talking about, an island of traditional climbing in an ever more bolted world. Unless there is absolutely no alternative and the pin placement will remain sound then we really should not be putting in new pins. There have been some pins replaced in the past few years where there is gear and the pin was unnecessary such as Comedy and No Glow.

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#39011 - 08/12/08 04:50 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: Coppertone]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2468
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
This is also the Gunks we are talking about, an island of traditional climbing in an ever more bolted world. Unless there is absolutely no alternative and the pin placement will remain sound then we really should not be putting in new pins.

Right. Along these lines, we may in some cases have to accept that climbs change. Everyone understands that if holds break or rockfall alters a pitch, the climb becomes different. We haven't arrived at the point yet at which people support bolting on a hold in a place where one has broken off. In this case, a pin nowhere near the crux climbing is gone, leaving viable protection alternatives at a spot where there are also route alternatives to the unprotected climbing. Moreover, replacing the pin is problematic and seems likely to replicate the dangers of the original situation.

Taking all these things into consideration, I think the best resolution is to admit that the climb is now different. (Or, considering the advanced deterioration of the pin in question, that the actual nature of the route is now apparent.) This does point out that a leader who happens upon a route and is expecting a certain level of difficulty and/or protection is still the final arbiter of what dangers and difficulties he or she is willing to confront. A guidebook, topo, or verbal description can be wrong or out of date, or the leader may have misjudged the descriptions and find themselves in the wrong place. They and they alone have to decide whether to move up, traverse, or retreat; that wisdom is theirs to apply, it cannot be supplied by a guidebook or a discussion forum.

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