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#3902 - 03/08/02 09:01 PM LOST CITY
Anonymous
Unregistered


COULD ANY ONE GIVE ME SOME BETA ON LOST CITY ROUTES? I'LL TRY TO ONSIGHT EVERYTHING IF I HAVE TO BUT SOME BETA WOULD BE NICE.
PLEASE... JUST A LITTLE.

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#3903 - 03/08/02 09:04 PM Re: LOST CITY
andrew Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 1816
Loc: Denver, CO
*sigh*
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#3904 - 03/08/02 09:16 PM Re: LOST CITY [Re: andrew]
touchAbunny Offline
TaB

Registered: 01/28/02
Posts: 551
Loc: Colorado
*sigh*
_________________________
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#3905 - 03/08/02 09:18 PM Re: LOST CITY [Re: touchAbunny]
daryl512 Offline

veteran

Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 1256
Loc: Rochester, NY
*sigh*

Daryl
_________________________
At this point in my life I should be daryl5.3 not daryl512

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#3906 - 03/08/02 09:28 PM Re: LOST CITY
cori Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/20/01
Posts: 1357
Please try the search in this category for lost city. you might find something interesting there.

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#3907 - 03/08/02 10:02 PM Re: LOST CITY [Re: cori]
daryl512 Offline

veteran

Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 1256
Loc: Rochester, NY
Cori,
Sorry but something interesting is in the trapps, not lost city. I couldn't resist.

Daryl
_________________________
At this point in my life I should be daryl5.3 not daryl512

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#3908 - 03/08/02 10:49 PM Re: LOST CITY [Re: daryl512]
cori Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/20/01
Posts: 1357
Doh!

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#3909 - 03/09/02 02:22 AM Re: LOST CITY [Re: cori]
Vlad Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 224
Loc: Mountain View, CA
I think all post with that subject should go to Anything Goes.

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#3910 - 03/09/02 03:38 PM Re: LOST CITY [Re: Vlad]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
You people are too funny.... Like OHHH THE LOST CITY AH, HUMMM, BIG SECRET SHHHHHH......

my god this is "other areas" not "Fariy tale land"....tooo funny.

hey FRANCHENZO send me a p.m. (personal message) and I'll give you what I've got. If I post LC beta in here they may shoot me, or a curse of a thousands deaths may rain apon me.




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#3911 - 03/09/02 04:15 PM Re: LOST CITY [Re: Smike]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2361
Loc: Boston
It's not that it's a big secret. It's that PEOPLE KEEP ASKING! And asking as though it's their right to know where it is, what every route is rated, and no controversy around this is expected. When I go to a new NG looking for beta, you know what I do first? I do a search of old posts. Evan makes that even easier to do here. There is really no excuse for rehashing the same shit over and over again. Around most issues I say, fine let people ask again. But when folks are so clueless as to ask an open ended question about what routes there are, how they're rated, and how to get to LC, all on a public forum, and within a month of the last time where someone got reamed for doing the same thing, and less than a year from when the subject was handled in depth, with a lot of impassioned, meaningful discussion about the merits of keeping "locals only" crags, well it gets a little tiresome.

Sorry - I must've gotten up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. Just tired of cluelessness. I mean everyone starts off clueless, but damn, show a little initiative to edumucate yerself instead of saying "please spoon feed me the information I want" to the world.

Ahh, maybe I should just delete this message. But I won't. End of rant.

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#3912 - 03/09/02 08:47 PM Re: LOST CITY [Re: GOclimb]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
ok I usually don't jump into this but,
If someone posts a question about route beta at the Trapps or the Nears (which there is 2 very good guide books on them) there is usually a bunch of people that will post a ton of info. Yet on LC (no guide book) people get flamed when they ask for beta. Huh?....that’s being clueless?

try searching "lost city" same useless info and idiots like me "ranting on" found there. oh well.

hey GO, I didn't get of the wrong side of bed, I guess my excess is I'm just too bored at work.

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#3913 - 03/10/02 05:10 PM Re: LOST CITY [Re: Smike]
cori Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/20/01
Posts: 1357
I just suggested that he try the search because everyone else was posting *sigh*. I felt bad for him. I was trying to be helpful - And you know what? This IS fairy tale land because I am a "princess". I will zap you with my wand and your bordom will magically disappear.

*ZAP*

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#3914 - 03/10/02 05:14 PM Re: LOST CITY [Re: cori]
strat Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4242
Sounds to me like someone's been hitting the sauce a little to heavily lately

Sam "LOSER"

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#3915 - 03/10/02 11:09 PM Re: LOST CITY [Re: strat]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
I'd like a little of that princess magic if you could. Lost City is over the rainbow........over the river and through the woods......It's a lnd full of leprechauns, fairies, elves, and of course...trolls.

RangerRob

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#3916 - 03/10/02 11:53 PM Re: LOST CITY [Re: cori]
onionman Offline
member

Registered: 07/09/01
Posts: 178
Oooh OOOOOhhh, ZAP me too!

I've always dreamed of being a parsnip, or even a clove of
garlic. Anything but a mundane onion.

--onion

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#3917 - 03/11/02 01:04 AM Re: LOST CITY [Re: cori]
LesterLeBlanc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 1916
Loc: Los Angeles
I think it was the all caps and lack of punctuation that turned people off more than anything. People who post like that tend to not think of searching for previous posts. Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with asking for LC info or for even rehashing said info. Regular users of a message board often get tired of the same questions, but for someone seeking information about Gunks routes not found in guidebooks, this message board is the obvious place to start looking. Usually the more thoughtful a post, the better the reponse.

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#3918 - 03/11/02 07:27 AM Re: LOST CITY [Re: LesterLeBlanc]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
I know I've said this several times before, but I think it is important enough to keep on repeating. It seems to me than many people do not understand the truly inspired idea behind the status of Lost City.

The goal is to preserve Lost City as an undocumented area. This is completely different from having it be a secret area. The genius of this approach is to have a place, in the midst of a truly urban crag, where much of the adventure of previous climbing eras is preserved for current and future generations. Keeping LC undocumented preserves this vanishing experience for everyone. Respecting this so far universally observed agreement means that route location and grading information does not appear in guidebooks or in public forums such as this. (The Mohonk Preserve has specifically asked to have route information about LC omitted from guidebooks.) However, Lost City is not a secret, and there was never any intention (or ability) to restrict private communication about it.

I have had the pleasure of making a few first ascents in Lost City, all of which turned out to have been done by someone else before me. (John Stannard, of course.) Other than not getting to name the route after all, I had everying a first ascender in a new area gets to enjoy. If this type of uncertainty about difficulty and protection is not your cup of tea, you have an absolutely inexhaustible supply of well documented crags, including a lifetime's worth in the Gunks, to enjoy. Can't we carve out a little island of mystery for those who want to experience a different aspect of climbing? Is it not almost a sacred obligation not to let this opportunity slip away?

Almost every time there has been a question about Lost City, someone has volunteered to share information via pm. This is the appropriate way to honor the undocumented status without conveying the misimpression that LC is the secret preserve of a few insiders.

The flames that innocent inquirerers encounter when they ask about LC are unfortunate. The LC situation is unlike anything I know of in other areas, and people unfamiliar with it deserve some tolerance. However, road rage on the information highway is the norm, and I guess most travelers either get off at the first exit or become hardened to it.

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#3919 - 03/11/02 11:55 AM Re: LOST CITY [Re: rg@ofmc]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Great commentary RG. Sometimes I get a little annoyed by repeat posts as well,..... then it dawns on me: I can always make a single click and "poof!!", I'm gone. After all, no one's got a hold of me by the family-jewels and is forcing me to respond. On the other hand, after a little while, the Forum becomes a semi-private refuge and you begin to take ownership of it (its mine,.. all mine, dammit!!). It can be a little difficult accepting new people into the refuge when they don't bother doing a simple search of previous posts. So I can feel GoClimb's pain. On the other hand (Doesn't Bloody_Stump have a lot of hands?), perhaps those new to the post haven't noticed the search button yet. Who knows? I'll cut FRANCHENZO a break and assume he's an unfortunate victim of "search button" oversight -- which a little time, understanding, and liberal amounts of cream should remedy.

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#3920 - 03/11/02 01:35 PM Re: LOST CITY
touchAbunny Offline
TaB

Registered: 01/28/02
Posts: 551
Loc: Colorado
I agree with Bloody Stump's Last post. He summarizes my attitude completely.
_________________________
I'm over at http://www.mountainproject.com now

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#3921 - 03/11/02 01:39 PM Re: LOST CITY [Re: rg@ofmc]
Edgy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 12/17/00
Posts: 393
rg,

Not that it's relevent to this discussion, but I'm wondering; do you know who actually owns the out lying "secret" crags like LC and Bontcou? I was under the impression that LC wasn't a part of the Preserves property.

thanks,

ed e "who has no problem with "undocumented" or even "secret" areas..."


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#3922 - 03/11/02 03:40 PM Re: LOST CITY [Re: Edgy]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
LC, Bonticou, and CL are all on Preserve land. Eagle Cliff is on hotel land. I'm not sure about GW. There is another concentration of undocumented climbs on PIPC land.
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- Marc

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#3923 - 03/11/02 08:19 PM Re: LOST CITY [Re: MarcC]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Edgy,

As far as I know, MarcC is right. I always thought Giant's Workshop was on Mountain house, not Preserve, grounds, but I guess I don't know for sure.

These things are easily settled with a map, which I can't seem to find at the moment.

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#3924 - 03/11/02 08:25 PM Re: LOST CITY [Re: rg@ofmc]
Dan0930 Offline
addict

Registered: 12/24/99
Posts: 630
Loc: Connecticut
I looked on my map and GW is on Preserve property as far as I can tell.

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#3925 - 03/11/02 08:49 PM Re: LOST CITY [Re: rg@ofmc]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2361
Loc: Boston
Forgive my "road rage". I think past performance will show that when someone has a question, however obvious, I have been among the first to volunteer a helpful and honest response. No-one starts out knowing everything, and one of the things I find most valuable about forums like this is the ability to learn from those who know more than I do, and to share my knowledge with those who know less.

I've never been to LC, and I have no opinion as to whether it should remain "off the books". But I've been to Gunks.com, and I do have opinions about the local ethics here. Not that my opinions are worth much, but I've been a member of the climbing community here long enough that I don't mind sharing them. I did not do so as kindly as I might, but I made my point, so I'll leave it alone.

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#3926 - 03/11/02 11:26 PM Re: LOST CITY [Re: Edgy]
LesterLeBlanc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 1916
Loc: Los Angeles
As far as I know, Lost City and major parts of Bonticou are within the Mohonk Preserve. Giants Workshop, I believe, is also on Preserve property, though it is very close to the boundary.


Edited by LesterLeBlanc (03/11/02 11:31 PM)

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#3927 - 03/13/02 04:09 AM Re: LOST CITY [Re: Edgy]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
As far as I know all the climbing at LC is on preserve property, and Bonticou is mixed preserve/private.

RangerRob

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#3928 - 03/13/02 01:37 PM Re: LOST CITY [Re: RangerRob]
Edgy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 12/17/00
Posts: 393
Thanks all,

I remembered being told many years ago that Running Man was on non-Preserve property. What I couldn't remember is that it's at Bonticou, not LC....

First my short term memory starts to fail...now I losing my long term memory....

thanks

ed

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#3929 - 03/13/02 05:17 PM Re: LOST CITY [Re: Edgy]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
A clarification on Bonticou and my earlier post. The big, obvious cliff/pile that everyone points out as Bonticou is indeed on Preserve land. The extremely difficult routes that went up in the 80's, such as Running Man, are on a relatively short and very steep wall on the southeast side of the Bonticou mass, down in the woods a bit. The Preserve property line crosses this wall at some point. I have no idea who owns the section to the east of that point.
_________________________
- Marc

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#3930 - 03/13/02 09:00 PM Re: LOST CITY [Re: MarcC]
LesterLeBlanc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 1916
Loc: Los Angeles
Yes, the A.I. wall (where can find Running Man) is on or adjacent to a private lot. I haven't been back there since 1993, but I don't think anyone's built on the lot yet.

It's a great little wall. Artificial Intelligence alone is worth the trip. Bandito (5.11c) and Lanman (5.11a) are terrific routes as well. There's a solid little 5.10 there as well.

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#3931 - 03/14/02 01:29 PM Re: LOST CITY [Re: touchAbunny]
Anonymous
Unregistered


At Lost City I've seen guides and groups of better that 12 students. "Secret???"

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#3932 - 03/14/02 02:05 PM Re:
Edgy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 12/17/00
Posts: 393
Hey oldfatguy,

As we've discussed and discussed, ad nauseam, (see the seemingly never ending thread on definition of sport climbing...) the Gunks is a "semi-" area. It's only "semi-"trad, and the "secret" areas are only "semi-" secret.

There's a bunch of other examples. For instance:

I found Lost City the first time I went there...how "lost" is that??? A lot of people have been looking for the "Lost Island of Atlantis," for years...No one's found it, yet. Now, that's what I call "lost." That's why it's only "semi-"Lost City.



edgy "who's going bouldering at a really "secret" area this afternoon.....( and no, I won't be posting it's location on any internet board....)"

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#3933 - 03/14/02 02:36 PM Re: LOST CITY [Re: Edgy]
d-elvis Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/26/00
Posts: 3650
Loc: Central PA
Picture of Climber climbing at Lost City


Attachments
36591-lostcity.jpg (356 downloads)

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#3934 - 03/14/02 04:07 PM Re: LOST CITY [Re: d-elvis]
ryanclan Offline
addict

Registered: 01/09/00
Posts: 578
Loc: NoCal
Nice shot.....I think that's Pencil, eh? Just as you walk into the corridor.

Oh, dreaming of those rock days..

Kathy

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#3935 - 03/14/02 08:04 PM Re: LOST CITY [Re: ryanclan]
d-elvis Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/26/00
Posts: 3650
Loc: Central PA
Got "lost" and found it
_________________________
"Marriage Survivor"

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#3936 - 03/15/02 02:35 PM Re: [Re: Edgy]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hey edgy. uh, yea.. I got that. I'm saying the same thing. The point I was trying to raise was, it's not even semi. Don't think there should be class (they came in a school bus) at lost city.

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#3937 - 03/15/02 06:43 PM Re:
LesterLeBlanc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 1916
Loc: Los Angeles
Guiding at Lost City? Another issue the Shawangunks Climbers Coalition could address!


Okay, I'm going away now ...


: )

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#3938 - 03/15/02 11:40 PM Semi, Secret, and Lost [Re: Edgy]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Edgy and Oldfatguy,
You still seem to be hung up on LC being a "secret" or "semi secret" area. It isn't either of those! It's location was given as far back as Williams 1972 guide. It might even have been mentioned in Gran's 1964 guide. The point is that the climbs at LC are undocumented and by consensus agreement do not appear in any published guidebook. Tons of climbers have known about it for 45 years. Tons of Preserve hikers know about it and know there's climbing over there. Photos of Persistence were even published several times in the 70's and 80's. It ain't a secret.

It's called Lost City not because it's lost but because the towers and corridors, esp. on the north end, reminded the early climbers of an abandoned city. (Remember the popularity of Tolkein in the 50's and 60's as reflected in the number of Lord of the Rings references in the names of climbs.)
_________________________
- Marc

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#3939 - 03/16/02 12:28 AM Re: Semi, Secret, and Lost [Re: MarcC]
Anonymous
Unregistered


oh, for the love of........ No. I am not hung up on the sematics. All I am saying is, that if those climbers who came before us thought that the area should remain undocumented - then I personally feel that guiding and instruction should be restricted as well.

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#3940 - 03/16/02 01:06 AM Re: Semi, Secret, and Lost [Re: MarcC]
LesterLeBlanc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 1916
Loc: Los Angeles
That's true. I remember getting my first Climbing magazine in 1987. There was a report on a new 5.13 in the Gunks. That route was Clairvoyance. Survival block. Lost City.

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#3941 - 03/16/02 04:48 AM Re: *sigh* [Re: MarcC]
Edgy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 12/17/00
Posts: 393
Wow...

I thought I was pretty obtuse, but...

Please don't take offense at my asking; but are you engineer or a computer geek-type? Are you a linear thinking kind of guy? Have you ever been accused of being a little "left brained?"

I guess I didn't make myself excruciatingly clear. Of course, I know that Lost City isn't "secret" or "semi-secret" or even "lost"....

Believe me...I know when something is "secret...” I live in Western Mass, and we have a long, long, long history of trying to keep crags "secret" to keep someone from finding and chopping them.

I also think I understand the meaning of "lost." If you've ever been with me when I'm trying to find my way back to the latest really "secret" crag; you'd know, that I know "lost." I hate to admit it, but I spent 30 minutes yesterday wandering around in the woods, trying to find a trail that I had just cut. I’d like to think I was only "semi- lost."

What I was trying to do was poke a little gentle fun at the highly romanticized notions and beliefs that many who post in this forum have. There is a rigid, set in stone, "we're direct descendants of Fritz Wiessner" attitude that is more than a little prevalent on this board....

I was hoping (apparently without any success) to be humorous.... I think that it's really sad that those cute little emoticons are really necessary to be understood.... *sigh*

Personally, I don't think I have any hang ups about Lost City: If the Preserve (who owns the property) wants it to be undocumented... that's great. If the majority of the climbing community really wants it to be undocumented...that's great. If there's large guided groups at LC (or any where else in the Gunks).... that’s not great.

I do admit to a little bit of a hang up about the beloved "consensus agreement" when applied to climbs that are not on Preserve property. Should the "no documentation" and "no bolt" rules apply to climbs that are located on non-preserve lands like the Artificial Intelligence Wall at Bonticou?

edgy "who tries to keep his martinis, powder. and humor; dry...very dry"


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#3942 - 03/16/02 02:33 PM Re: *sigh* [Re: Edgy]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
I got lost in a card board box once....


Anyway, bolts and guide books to climbs on "private land" have to go by the land owners whishes 1st, no exceptions.


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#3943 - 03/16/02 11:04 PM Re: *sigh* [Re: Edgy]
LesterLeBlanc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 1916
Loc: Los Angeles
Running Man on the A.I. wall is/was bolted.

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#3944 - 03/17/02 02:20 AM Re: *AI* [Re: LesterLeBlanc]
crackers Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3424
Loc: pdx
i think that was the point lester.

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#3945 - 03/18/02 05:53 PM Re: *AI* [Re: crackers]
LesterLeBlanc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 1916
Loc: Los Angeles
My point exactly.

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#3946 - 03/18/02 06:18 PM Re: *AI* [Re: LesterLeBlanc]
Edgy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 12/17/00
Posts: 393
Past tense form of the verb is correct.....was.

ed

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#3947 - 03/18/02 06:58 PM Re: *AI* [Re: Edgy]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
Must have been the chopped bolts I saw while rapping drown this face at LC. It pissed me off to see the smashed ugly hanger(s) still in the rock. Hey I'm all for "no bolts" but take them out and fill in the hole for crying out loud. The smashed hangers were a point well taken by anyone wanted/thinking of bolting the LC, but it amounted to someone just spray-painting "don't bolt here" on the rock.

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#3948 - 03/18/02 09:28 PM Re: *AI* [Re: Smike]
Edgy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 12/17/00
Posts: 393
Smike,

I agree with you about the smashed over hangers....

I'm not big on chopping bolts (as I'm also against adding bolts to routes.) But, I can see how an individual or the community may want to remove bolts that they sincerely and honestly feel are an affront to the history and "ethics" of an area.

Those who chop make a reasonable and rational statement by removing the bolts and patching the holes. But smashing them over is purely an act of vandalism. This behavior always makes me question the chopper's real motivations. It seems to me, this type of chopping isn't about "making it right," but more about uncontrolled anger and disrespect.

It's worse than spray painting the rock, because of the extreme component of violence involved. It isn't pleasant or easy work to bend a hanger over or smash a 1/2' thick glue-in into an unusable mess. Such actions aren't fueled by love of the rock, but by hatred of others.

Consider the real result of smashing them over: before smashing-- a climbable route with "ugly" bolts....after smashing--an unclimbable route that's even "uglier."

ed e

ps. Before you're taken to task for not knowing your way around the various "secret" (oops, I mean "undocumented") crags.... the A I wall is at Bonticou....not LC.

There are also smashed hangers at LC that have been there for years in that condition.




Edited by Edgy (03/18/02 09:42 PM)

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#3949 - 03/18/02 09:47 PM Re: *AI* [Re: Edgy]
Edgy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 12/17/00
Posts: 393
oops...

Lester, you're right....present tense.....as the strong punks I try to boulder with say....my bad...

ed e

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#3950 - 03/19/02 12:19 AM Re: *AI* [Re: Edgy]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
Ops, Bonticou. Thanks for the correction Edgy. I was sure to get flamed into orbit for that. I was just pissed (and still am) about the smashed hangers at LC.

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#3951 - 03/25/02 07:43 PM Re: *AI* [Re: Edgy]
andrew Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 1816
Loc: Denver, CO
I'll clean those smashed bolts up next time I'm at the Gunks. I hate that kind of chopping-lazy and juvenile.
_________________________
This isn't an office. It's Hell with fluorescent lighting.

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#3952 - 03/26/02 02:22 PM Re: *AI* [Re: andrew]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
a-men

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