COULD ANY ONE GIVE ME SOME BETA ON LOST CITY ROUTES? I'LL TRY TO ONSIGHT EVERYTHING IF I HAVE TO BUT SOME BETA WOULD BE NICE.
PLEASE... JUST A LITTLE.

*sigh*

*sigh*

*sigh*

Daryl

Please try the search in this category for lost city. you might find something interesting there.

Cori,
Sorry but something interesting is in the trapps, not lost city. I couldn't resist.

Daryl

Doh!

I think all post with that subject should go to Anything Goes.

You people are too funny.... Like OHHH THE LOST CITY AH, HUMMM, BIG SECRET SHHHHHH......

my god this is "other areas" not "Fariy tale land"....tooo funny.

hey FRANCHENZO send me a p.m. (personal message) and I'll give you what I've got. If I post LC beta in here they may shoot me, or a curse of a thousands deaths may rain apon me.

It's not that it's a big secret. It's that PEOPLE KEEP ASKING! And asking as though it's their right to know where it is, what every route is rated, and no controversy around this is expected. When I go to a new NG looking for beta, you know what I do first? I do a search of old posts. Evan makes that even easier to do here. There is really no excuse for rehashing the same shit over and over again. Around most issues I say, fine let people ask again. But when folks are so clueless as to ask an open ended question about what routes there are, how they're rated, and how to get to LC, all on a public forum, and within a month of the last time where someone got reamed for doing the same thing, and less than a year from when the subject was handled in depth, with a lot of impassioned, meaningful discussion about the merits of keeping "locals only" crags, well it gets a little tiresome.

Sorry - I must've gotten up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. Just tired of cluelessness. I mean everyone starts off clueless, but damn, show a little initiative to edumucate yerself instead of saying "please spoon feed me the information I want" to the world.

Ahh, maybe I should just delete this message. But I won't. End of rant.

ok I usually don't jump into this but,
If someone posts a question about route beta at the Trapps or the Nears (which there is 2 very good guide books on them) there is usually a bunch of people that will post a ton of info. Yet on LC (no guide book) people get flamed when they ask for beta. Huh?....that’s being clueless?

try searching "lost city" same useless info and idiots like me "ranting on" found there. oh well.

hey GO, I didn't get of the wrong side of bed, I guess my excess is I'm just too bored at work.

I just suggested that he try the search because everyone else was posting *sigh*. I felt bad for him. I was trying to be helpful - And you know what? This IS fairy tale land because I am a "princess". I will zap you with my wand and your bordom will magically disappear.

*ZAP*

Sounds to me like someone's been hitting the sauce a little to heavily lately

Sam "LOSER"

I'd like a little of that princess magic if you could. Lost City is over the rainbow........over the river and through the woods......It's a lnd full of leprechauns, fairies, elves, and of course...trolls.

RangerRob

Oooh OOOOOhhh, ZAP me too!

I've always dreamed of being a parsnip, or even a clove of
garlic. Anything but a mundane onion.

--onion

I think it was the all caps and lack of punctuation that turned people off more than anything. People who post like that tend to not think of searching for previous posts. Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with asking for LC info or for even rehashing said info. Regular users of a message board often get tired of the same questions, but for someone seeking information about Gunks routes not found in guidebooks, this message board is the obvious place to start looking. Usually the more thoughtful a post, the better the reponse.

I know I've said this several times before, but I think it is important enough to keep on repeating. It seems to me than many people do not understand the truly inspired idea behind the status of Lost City.

The goal is to preserve Lost City as an undocumented area. This is completely different from having it be a secret area. The genius of this approach is to have a place, in the midst of a truly urban crag, where much of the adventure of previous climbing eras is preserved for current and future generations. Keeping LC undocumented preserves this vanishing experience for everyone. Respecting this so far universally observed agreement means that route location and grading information does not appear in guidebooks or in public forums such as this. (The Mohonk Preserve has specifically asked to have route information about LC omitted from guidebooks.) However, Lost City is not a secret, and there was never any intention (or ability) to restrict private communication about it.

I have had the pleasure of making a few first ascents in Lost City, all of which turned out to have been done by someone else before me. (John Stannard, of course.) Other than not getting to name the route after all, I had everying a first ascender in a new area gets to enjoy. If this type of uncertainty about difficulty and protection is not your cup of tea, you have an absolutely inexhaustible supply of well documented crags, including a lifetime's worth in the Gunks, to enjoy. Can't we carve out a little island of mystery for those who want to experience a different aspect of climbing? Is it not almost a sacred obligation not to let this opportunity slip away?

Almost every time there has been a question about Lost City, someone has volunteered to share information via pm. This is the appropriate way to honor the undocumented status without conveying the misimpression that LC is the secret preserve of a few insiders.

The flames that innocent inquirerers encounter when they ask about LC are unfortunate. The LC situation is unlike anything I know of in other areas, and people unfamiliar with it deserve some tolerance. However, road rage on the information highway is the norm, and I guess most travelers either get off at the first exit or become hardened to it.

Great commentary RG. Sometimes I get a little annoyed by repeat posts as well,..... then it dawns on me: I can always make a single click and "poof!!", I'm gone. After all, no one's got a hold of me by the family-jewels and is forcing me to respond. On the other hand, after a little while, the Forum becomes a semi-private refuge and you begin to take ownership of it (its mine,.. all mine, dammit!!). It can be a little difficult accepting new people into the refuge when they don't bother doing a simple search of previous posts. So I can feel GoClimb's pain. On the other hand (Doesn't Bloody_Stump have a lot of hands?), perhaps those new to the post haven't noticed the search button yet. Who knows? I'll cut FRANCHENZO a break and assume he's an unfortunate victim of "search button" oversight -- which a little time, understanding, and liberal amounts of cream should remedy.

I agree with Bloody Stump's Last post. He summarizes my attitude completely.

rg,

Not that it's relevent to this discussion, but I'm wondering; do you know who actually owns the out lying "secret" crags like LC and Bontcou? I was under the impression that LC wasn't a part of the Preserves property.

thanks,

ed e "who has no problem with "undocumented" or even "secret" areas..."

LC, Bonticou, and CL are all on Preserve land. Eagle Cliff is on hotel land. I'm not sure about GW. There is another concentration of undocumented climbs on PIPC land.

Edgy,

As far as I know, MarcC is right. I always thought Giant's Workshop was on Mountain house, not Preserve, grounds, but I guess I don't know for sure.

These things are easily settled with a map, which I can't seem to find at the moment.

I looked on my map and GW is on Preserve property as far as I can tell.

Forgive my "road rage". I think past performance will show that when someone has a question, however obvious, I have been among the first to volunteer a helpful and honest response. No-one starts out knowing everything, and one of the things I find most valuable about forums like this is the ability to learn from those who know more than I do, and to share my knowledge with those who know less.

I've never been to LC, and I have no opinion as to whether it should remain "off the books". But I've been to Gunks.com, and I do have opinions about the local ethics here. Not that my opinions are worth much, but I've been a member of the climbing community here long enough that I don't mind sharing them. I did not do so as kindly as I might, but I made my point, so I'll leave it alone.

As far as I know, Lost City and major parts of Bonticou are within the Mohonk Preserve. Giants Workshop, I believe, is also on Preserve property, though it is very close to the boundary.

As far as I know all the climbing at LC is on preserve property, and Bonticou is mixed preserve/private.

RangerRob

Thanks all,

I remembered being told many years ago that Running Man was on non-Preserve property. What I couldn't remember is that it's at Bonticou, not LC....

First my short term memory starts to fail...now I losing my long term memory....

thanks

ed

A clarification on Bonticou and my earlier post. The big, obvious cliff/pile that everyone points out as Bonticou is indeed on Preserve land. The extremely difficult routes that went up in the 80's, such as Running Man, are on a relatively short and very steep wall on the southeast side of the Bonticou mass, down in the woods a bit. The Preserve property line crosses this wall at some point. I have no idea who owns the section to the east of that point.

Yes, the A.I. wall (where can find Running Man) is on or adjacent to a private lot. I haven't been back there since 1993, but I don't think anyone's built on the lot yet.

It's a great little wall. Artificial Intelligence alone is worth the trip. Bandito (5.11c) and Lanman (5.11a) are terrific routes as well. There's a solid little 5.10 there as well.

At Lost City I've seen guides and groups of better that 12 students. "Secret???"

Hey oldfatguy,

As we've discussed and discussed, ad nauseam, (see the seemingly never ending thread on definition of sport climbing...) the Gunks is a "semi-" area. It's only "semi-"trad, and the "secret" areas are only "semi-" secret.

There's a bunch of other examples. For instance:

I found Lost City the first time I went there...how "lost" is that??? A lot of people have been looking for the "Lost Island of Atlantis," for years...No one's found it, yet. Now, that's what I call "lost." That's why it's only "semi-"Lost City.



edgy "who's going bouldering at a really "secret" area this afternoon.....( and no, I won't be posting it's location on any internet board....)"

Picture of Climber climbing at Lost City

Nice shot.....I think that's Pencil, eh? Just as you walk into the corridor.

Oh, dreaming of those rock days..

Kathy

Got "lost" and found it

Hey edgy. uh, yea.. I got that. I'm saying the same thing. The point I was trying to raise was, it's not even semi. Don't think there should be class (they came in a school bus) at lost city.

Guiding at Lost City? Another issue the Shawangunks Climbers Coalition could address!


Okay, I'm going away now ...


: )

Edgy and Oldfatguy,
You still seem to be hung up on LC being a "secret" or "semi secret" area. It isn't either of those! It's location was given as far back as Williams 1972 guide. It might even have been mentioned in Gran's 1964 guide. The point is that the climbs at LC are undocumented and by consensus agreement do not appear in any published guidebook. Tons of climbers have known about it for 45 years. Tons of Preserve hikers know about it and know there's climbing over there. Photos of Persistence were even published several times in the 70's and 80's. It ain't a secret.

It's called Lost City not because it's lost but because the towers and corridors, esp. on the north end, reminded the early climbers of an abandoned city. (Remember the popularity of Tolkein in the 50's and 60's as reflected in the number of Lord of the Rings references in the names of climbs.)

oh, for the love of........ No. I am not hung up on the sematics. All I am saying is, that if those climbers who came before us thought that the area should remain undocumented - then I personally feel that guiding and instruction should be restricted as well.

That's true. I remember getting my first Climbing magazine in 1987. There was a report on a new 5.13 in the Gunks. That route was Clairvoyance. Survival block. Lost City.

Wow...

I thought I was pretty obtuse, but...

Please don't take offense at my asking; but are you engineer or a computer geek-type? Are you a linear thinking kind of guy? Have you ever been accused of being a little "left brained?"

I guess I didn't make myself excruciatingly clear. Of course, I know that Lost City isn't "secret" or "semi-secret" or even "lost"....

Believe me...I know when something is "secret...” I live in Western Mass, and we have a long, long, long history of trying to keep crags "secret" to keep someone from finding and chopping them.

I also think I understand the meaning of "lost." If you've ever been with me when I'm trying to find my way back to the latest really "secret" crag; you'd know, that I know "lost." I hate to admit it, but I spent 30 minutes yesterday wandering around in the woods, trying to find a trail that I had just cut. I’d like to think I was only "semi- lost."

What I was trying to do was poke a little gentle fun at the highly romanticized notions and beliefs that many who post in this forum have. There is a rigid, set in stone, "we're direct descendants of Fritz Wiessner" attitude that is more than a little prevalent on this board....

I was hoping (apparently without any success) to be humorous.... I think that it's really sad that those cute little emoticons are really necessary to be understood.... *sigh*

Personally, I don't think I have any hang ups about Lost City: If the Preserve (who owns the property) wants it to be undocumented... that's great. If the majority of the climbing community really wants it to be undocumented...that's great. If there's large guided groups at LC (or any where else in the Gunks).... that’s not great.

I do admit to a little bit of a hang up about the beloved "consensus agreement" when applied to climbs that are not on Preserve property. Should the "no documentation" and "no bolt" rules apply to climbs that are located on non-preserve lands like the Artificial Intelligence Wall at Bonticou?

edgy "who tries to keep his martinis, powder. and humor; dry...very dry"

I got lost in a card board box once....


Anyway, bolts and guide books to climbs on "private land" have to go by the land owners whishes 1st, no exceptions.

Running Man on the A.I. wall is/was bolted.

i think that was the point lester.

My point exactly.

Past tense form of the verb is correct.....was.

ed

Must have been the chopped bolts I saw while rapping drown this face at LC. It pissed me off to see the smashed ugly hanger(s) still in the rock. Hey I'm all for "no bolts" but take them out and fill in the hole for crying out loud. The smashed hangers were a point well taken by anyone wanted/thinking of bolting the LC, but it amounted to someone just spray-painting "don't bolt here" on the rock.

Smike,

I agree with you about the smashed over hangers....

I'm not big on chopping bolts (as I'm also against adding bolts to routes.) But, I can see how an individual or the community may want to remove bolts that they sincerely and honestly feel are an affront to the history and "ethics" of an area.

Those who chop make a reasonable and rational statement by removing the bolts and patching the holes. But smashing them over is purely an act of vandalism. This behavior always makes me question the chopper's real motivations. It seems to me, this type of chopping isn't about "making it right," but more about uncontrolled anger and disrespect.

It's worse than spray painting the rock, because of the extreme component of violence involved. It isn't pleasant or easy work to bend a hanger over or smash a 1/2' thick glue-in into an unusable mess. Such actions aren't fueled by love of the rock, but by hatred of others.

Consider the real result of smashing them over: before smashing-- a climbable route with "ugly" bolts....after smashing--an unclimbable route that's even "uglier."

ed e

ps. Before you're taken to task for not knowing your way around the various "secret" (oops, I mean "undocumented") crags.... the A I wall is at Bonticou....not LC.

There are also smashed hangers at LC that have been there for years in that condition.

oops...

Lester, you're right....present tense.....as the strong punks I try to boulder with say....my bad...

ed e

Ops, Bonticou. Thanks for the correction Edgy. I was sure to get flamed into orbit for that. I was just pissed (and still am) about the smashed hangers at LC.

I'll clean those smashed bolts up next time I'm at the Gunks. I hate that kind of chopping-lazy and juvenile.

a-men