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#39353 - 08/29/08 09:47 PM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: tallgirlnyc]
tradgunkie Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 38
 Originally Posted By: tallgirlnyc
My quick perusal of the guide book made me wonder if they had actually climbed all the routes they highlighted.
Also, the sheer size of the thing when it only has a "selection" of 'gunks climbs makes me think it should live in a bookshelf instead of inside a pack.


I can tell you without a doubt that the authors climbed every route they covered in the guide with the exception of a few of the 5.12s. I agree that some of their route grades are too inflated, but I think many of the grade changes were justified.

I have an interview on my site with the author if you'd like more info.
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#39354 - 08/29/08 10:12 PM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: tradgunkie]
Dana Offline
addict

Registered: 07/13/00
Posts: 619
" . . . but I think many of the grade changes were justified."

I'm curious; what grade changes do you think were accurate?

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#39355 - 08/29/08 10:51 PM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: Dana]
redtag Offline
journeyman

Registered: 06/26/07
Posts: 98
sounds like the only thing this guidebook is good for is wiping your ass or starting your campfire...

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#39356 - 08/29/08 11:15 PM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: Dana]
tradgunkie Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 38
 Originally Posted By: Dana
" . . . but I think many of the grade changes were justified."

I'm curious; what grade changes do you think were accurate?


I can't be in complete agreement with exact grades since it's been a few years since I've climbed some of the routes. I'm no expert, I'm just an ordinary climber, but some of the climbs feel harder than the grades Swain and Williams have in their guides.

I've already mentioned that I think Shockley's isn't a 5.6. It sure felt to be around an 8 each time I did it.

Laurel has a 5.8/5.9 boulder problem on it. It's easy to dismiss since it's the first move. I'd probably lean towards 5.8, but I'm tall and I believe it's harder for shorter people.

Raubenheimer Special feels like an easy 8 to me. Again it's a boulder problem so it's seems cheap to give the whole route a 5.8 when the rest of it is so much easier but that's how it's done.

I haven't been on Baby in a long time, but I vividly remember the time I first did it 10 years ago. I was leading 5.12 at the time and thought Baby would be a good cruise. I was pretty shocked at how hard a 5.6 could be. Now maybe I was missing a key hold or clueless on the particular offwidth technique required.

The Dangler at 5.10a? Seems about right.

Coexistence at 5.11a? Seems about right.

Balrog at 5.11b? I don't know, maybe 10d.

Modern Times is burly. It gives me almost as much of a workout that Doubleissma does. Is it 5.10? I don't know, but 5.9 even seems slightly soft for it. Probably 5.9.

Dogs in Heat was actually downgraded correctly (my opinion of course)to 5.10d. I'm surprised no one has mentioned this.

Most of the climbs in the book have the same grade as the Grey Dick. I don't really care to take a count, but the grades that were changed only reflect a small portion climbs in the guide.

As for the weight of the guide, I agree that it will probably bow to the Grey Dick guide for frequent Gunks' climbers. The scope of the guide doesn't make sense for someone who gets out to the cliff every weekend. The interesting thing though is that some of these climber bought it anyway just because they like to have every Gunks guide.
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#39357 - 08/30/08 10:22 AM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: tradgunkie]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
dogs in heat was never .11 in any guidebook I know of.

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#39358 - 08/30/08 11:22 AM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: pedestrian]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
 Originally Posted By: pedestrian
dogs in heat was never .11 in any guidebook I know of.


Grey Dick: Dogs in Heat 11a PG.

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#39359 - 08/30/08 01:44 PM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: Mike Rawdon]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Changing the grades of climbs is one thing; we can argue about this forever and everyone I know has their list of climbs that need regrading. But a major failing of The Gunks is that the authors are so unsure of their ratings that they have to regrade their own grades. The list of grading inconsistencies that I posted earlier between topos, route descriptions, and photo diagrams is just a sample of the fog of uncertainty that blankets this "guide."

Another example, one that I didn't mention earlier, of the lack of care that went into this work is the fact that, in many cases, the topos fail to indicate where the climbing that gives the climb its grade actually is.

For example,

Double Chin, 5.5. No indication on topo of where the 5.5 is.

Baby 5.8. No grade anywhere on first pitch. Impression from topo is that the 5.8 occurs on the second pitch only. Also, the topo describes the short offwidth section as a layback, thereby certifying gunks face-climbing incompetence.

Easy Overhang, 5.4. Topo has no grade on it anywhere.

Son of Easy O, 5.8. Topo has no grade anywhere on the second pitch.

Pas de Deux, 5.8. Topo has no grade on it anywhere.

Strictly from Nowhere,5.8+. Only grade on topo is a 5.4 section of the second pitch.

Something Interesting, 5.7+. No grade anywhere on the first pitch.

Birdie Party, 5.10b. No grade anywhere on topo. By the way, neither the topo nor the description indicates a second pitch (or continuation of the first pitch over the ceiling), so that 5.10b rating is for the section of the climb up to the bolts.

Mother's Day Party, 5.10b. No grade anywhere on topo.

Graveyard Shift, 5.10d. No grade anywhere on topo.

Tough Shift 5.10c. No grade on the topo at either of the route's crux sections. The topo leads the climber off-route over a ceiling marked 10d/11a.

Hijeck's Horror, 5.8. No 5.8 climbing indicated on topo, which only shows some 5.7 climbing higher up.

Raunchy, 5.8. No grade anywhere on the topo.

Etc., etc., etc. It goes on and on this way.

The authors' say that their topos "allow for a slew of beta to be added without cluttering up the cliff photos," but apparently that slew doesn't include where you'll find the hardest climbing, although we get a walk across a ledge labeled a "slippery traverse," and are treated to such helpful notations as "breakfast," "spicy taco," "hell yeah," "big-ass chimney" and "big-ass block." (Is there some sort of fetish thing going on here?) Now I'm not a fan of topos for Gunks rock anyway, but if you are claiming to help climbers by providing a "slew of beta," it seems to me that the absolute very least you could do is to notify leaders where the hard parts are.

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#39360 - 08/30/08 03:04 PM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: tradgunkie]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
 Originally Posted By: tradgunkie
I've already mentioned that I think Shockley's isn't a 5.6. It sure felt to be around an 8 each time I did it.

Laurel has a 5.8/5.9 boulder problem on it. It's easy to dismiss since it's the first move. I'd probably lean towards 5.8, but I'm tall and I believe it's harder for shorter people.

Raubenheimer Special feels like an easy 8 to me. Again it's a boulder problem so it's seems cheap to give the whole route a 5.8 when the rest of it is so much easier but that's how it's done.

Sounds like you and the authors are either not very familiar with 5.8 or you're engaging in a lot of ego gratification via grade inflation.

 Quote:
I haven't been on Baby in a long time, but I vividly remember the time I first did it 10 years ago. I was leading 5.12 at the time and thought Baby would be a good cruise. I was pretty shocked at how hard a 5.6 could be. Now maybe I was missing a key hold or clueless on the particular offwidth technique required.

Yes, clueless. Even if you can manage an overhanging 5.12 crimp and sloper-fest, if you've never done offwidth, 5.6 can sure feel hard. That doesn't make it a 5.8; it just illuminates a technique missing from your quiver.
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- Marc

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#39361 - 08/30/08 03:10 PM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: rg@ofmc]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
 Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
Baby 5.8. No grade anywhere on first pitch. Impression from topo is that the 5.8 occurs on the second pitch only. Also, the topo describes the short offwidth section as a layback, thereby certifying gunks face-climbing incompetence.

I had always done Baby with a layback, and thought it kind of burly for the grade (but still far easier than any of the 5.8s I had done to that point). Then in 1977 I took my first trip to Yosemite, came back, and cruised Baby with an arm-bar or two without thinking about it - and realized it was far easier that way.
_________________________
- Marc

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#39362 - 08/30/08 03:52 PM Re: new guidebook in August? [Re: MarcC]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
 Originally Posted By: MarcC
....in 1977 I took my first trip to Yosemite, came back, and cruised Baby with an arm-bar or two...


...together with some foot jams and heel-toes.

You can bet your big-ass guidebook that Fritz didn't layback that thing.

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