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#39518 - 09/05/08 03:23 PM Re: The Candidates [Re: Daniel]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
Great posts mgs and Daniel. Thank you for the time and effort.

More on Daniels following paragraph:

 Quote:
Finally, I think Obama will respect the Constitution more than McCain. McCain, to his credit, has said he will close Guantanamo. This is sensible if only because it has cost us far more than it has benefited us. But McCain does seem to think he can ignore congressional law on wiretapping (and who knows what else). This administration has done great damage to the founding principles of this nation: separation of powers, and checks and balances (and habeas corpus). I hold fast to those principles not because they're old, but because they work and help preserve our freedom.

I’d like to say that respecting human rights, civil rights and the constitution is the single most important issue for me. Arguments can be had on both sides for many of the other issues. Of course I believe in the solutions I do, but I understand that I might be wrong about some and that there may be more than one solution.

But since the US has admitted to and allowed actions I consider torture, since we have kidnapped and imprisoned people without representation and trial, and since almost random wire tapping has been allowed and worse since we know it has been abused I cannot be proud of what we have allowed or support those who allowed or performed these actions. Personally I feel some should be considered war criminals.

Otherwise? I agree fully with every one of Daniels points, and would vote for O’Bama simply on mgs argument if I didn’t. There is precious little that I might vote for McCain over Obama for and absolutely I know about Palins view of things I wouldn’t vote against.


Edited by mworking (09/05/08 03:24 PM)

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#39519 - 09/05/08 03:47 PM Re: The Candidates [Re: alicex4]
Daniel Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/23/01
Posts: 1515
 Originally Posted By: alicex4
Obama's resume is painfully thin. That's why all the focus is on charisma and platitudes. He went with Biden because anyone else would highlight Obama's lack of job experience....The media has been doing a full court press, almost 3 to 1, in super favorable coverage of him and Obama still can't close the deal.


There's plenty of substance on Obama's web site, should people choose to look at it. All you have to do is go there and read it. That the press chooses not to dwell on specifics is hardly his fault. Seek and ye shall find.

Biden was an obvious choice. One rap on Obama is that he's got no foreign policy experience. (Of course this is often true for people coming out of legislatures; they only job that gets you both executive and foreign policy experience is, well, the presidency, so all this "experience" talk is a bit of a crock. See Michael Kinsley's piece in Slate for more on the experience issue and what McCain's Veep should indicate about it). Biden as more foreign policy experience than just about anyone else in the Senate, since he's been on the Foreign Relations Committee for umpteen years. It's really tough to argue that "Obama doesn't know his way around Washington" and then criticize him for picking a running mate who does. I think Biden was a great choice. If an instance of plagiarism almost 20 years ago can outweigh the rest of a person's positive attributes, then we truly get the government we deserve. I wouldn't vote against McCain simply because he walked out on his first wife.

As for press coverage, a July study from George Mason University's Center for Media and Public Affairs said that since the end of the primaries, network news stories on Obama had been 72% negative compared to 43% negative for McCain. With weeks spent on Reverend Wright, Bittergate, and other non-policy matters, I don't see how Obama has goten a free ride at all, much less anything "super favorable." (Nor do I think how many homes McCain does or doesn't live in have anything to do with how he would act as president.)

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#39520 - 09/05/08 03:56 PM Re: The Candidates [Re: mworking]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5972
Loc: 212 land
Mworking, I’m not taking you to task for this, yet I wonder why Obama is spelled O’bama in a couple of your posts.
Mgs’s and Daniel’s posts resonate with me quite a bit. In a film that came and went last month, Swing Vote, the entire presidential election hinges on the vote of one man. If I were that man, I’d vote for Obama on a lesser-of-evils basis. In a prior thread I noted that, while I largely approved of Obama’s US Senate voting record when he did vote, he was recorded as not voting on quite a few important bills. On no occasion did I see him paired for or against anything. He voted yea on the latest FISA amendment. He reneged on a pledge to accept public funding. I thought that I might vote for him earlier this year, but for the above reasons, I changed my mind. Pity, there is so much about him I like.
_________________________

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#39521 - 09/05/08 04:16 PM Re: The Candidates [Re: oenophore]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
Excellent post Daniel, Thats what I'm looking for. I tend to agree on most points.

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#39522 - 09/05/08 04:20 PM Re: The Candidates [Re: oenophore]
Daniel Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/23/01
Posts: 1515
 Originally Posted By: oenophore
He voted yea on the latest FISA amendment. He reneged on a pledge to accept public funding.


I would have liked to have seen different actions from Obama in these areas too. But I understand his decisions in both cases.

They both go back to Obama as a pragmatist. Obama didn't want telecom immunity, but concluded that holding out for it would have led to a worse outcome both in practical and political terms: without the FISA compromise, conservative Democrats in the House were threatening to join Republicans and vote for the Senate bill. I suppose he concluded that allowing FISA to revert to it's original state and continuing the stalemate was not a better option. Not the outcome I would have preferred, but one has to operate in the political realities of the day and do the best one can.

There is no greater proponent of public campaign financing than myself. But the present presidential system is simply insufficient to the task. It doesn't provide enough funding, and it doesn't take into account vast amounts of independent expenditures (if anyone thinks McCain spending consists solely of his public funds, I've got about $100 million in RNC and 527 organization money to show you). The present system has public funds, but it doesn't guarantee a fair fight.

Maine and Arizona have good systems on the state level that I believe do not infringe on free speech while providing money for publicly financed candidates to answer back to independent expenditures and privately financed opponents. Obama is a cosponsor of legislation that would institute such a system for congressional elections, so I think he does believe in the principle. But I can't really blame him for not participating in a presidential funding system that doesn't really work. His mistake was probably indicating that he would accept the funds in the first place.

But again, as a pragmatist, the public system has to offer enough money to provide an incentive not to raise it privately. If more of us did the $3 check-off on our income taxes, maybe the system would be more robust. And he's still ahead of McCain on this issue, who has not endorsed the public campaign finance system in effect in his own state since 2000. (Plus I think aspects of McCain-Feingold violate the First Amendment.)

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#39523 - 09/05/08 04:33 PM Re: The Candidates [Re: Smike]
Daniel Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/23/01
Posts: 1515
 Originally Posted By: Smike
Excellent post Daniel, Thats what I'm looking for. I tend to agree on most points.


Thanks, Smike. Appreciated. And reasonable people can differ on many of these matters. I'm probably as capable of reading what I want into the Obama campaign as much as the next person. But the more we can ground our evaluations in what the candidates have actually said and done, the more productive a discussion we can have (which makes it all the more frustrating to see so much time spent on whether Obama is a "celebrity" or how many houses McCain may or may not own.)

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#39524 - 09/05/08 04:42 PM Re: The Candidates [Re: oenophore]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
 Originally Posted By: oenophore
Mworking, I’m not taking you to task for this, yet I wonder why Obama is spelled O’bama in a couple of your posts.


Clearly a tongue-in-cheek reference to the reports that Obama has Irish ancestry. I guess we'd better not elect him; might be an Irish terrorist...

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#39525 - 09/05/08 04:56 PM Re: The Candidates [Re: Daniel]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
 Originally Posted By: Daniel


Because he's the only remaining candidate who may ask us to take responsibility for our government again.

It seems to me that there's a pervasive attitude that if we just elect the right people, our government will solve our problems for us (whether that's energy independence, lower taxes, health care reform).


Excellent point, Daniel. And a well thought-out post, as always.

Smike, I may not be impressed by Obama's resume, but I'll be god-damned if I'm going to vote for 4 more years of the Republicans that have so thoroughly F'ed up our economy, our military, our environmental progress, our civil liberties, our rule of law vis-a-vis separation of powers, and our international reputation.

If that amounts to punishing the GOP for what I consider the W...P...E (c'mon, you know what that stands for), then so be it. They could put Superman on the ballot and I wouldn't support him.


(Worst. President. Ever.)

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#39526 - 09/05/08 05:14 PM Re: The Candidates [Re: pedestrian]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5972
Loc: 212 land
You suspected that the major candidates were a couple of you-know-whats.
================================================================




NYC company markets Obama and McCain-labeled condoms


Entrepreneur Ben Sherman holds his presidential condoms.(AP)

By Associated Press
June 13, 2008
NEW YORK—The presidential race is in full swing -- but not the way you might think.

A young New York City entrepreneur has decided to "have fun" with the campaign by marketing condoms featuring images of Barack Obama and John McCain.

Benjamin Sherman, who created the company Practice Safe Policy, says the Obama condom carries the slogan "Use With Good Judgment." The McCain version says "OLD BUT Not Expired."

According to the Web site, McCain condoms "are battle tested, strong and durable, for those occasions when you just need to switch your position!"

While the company can't guarantee the condoms are 100 percent effective, it says it's certain "that without wearing one, there's likely to be an Obama-Mama in your future."

=====================================================================================




*Craziest Convention Giveaway: The Log Cabin Republicans' black condoms starring Barack Obama's face surrounded by a red circle and slash, as in ''no.''


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#39527 - 09/05/08 05:43 PM Re: The Candidates [Re: Mike Rawdon]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
 Quote:
I'll be god-damned if I'm going to vote for 4 more years of the Republicans that have so thoroughly F'ed up our economy, our military, our environmental progress, our civil liberties, our rule of law vis-a-vis separation of powers, and our international reputation.


Not so fast Mike, Its easy for us to try to lay blame in one definable recognizable area, but truth be told at least on the current financial well being you need to look across the board at the Democrats for approving all the spending (as they have been in control of the congress for quite some time.) So your punishment needs to be a little broader then the just GOP.

One concerning issue is that with Obama in the oval office, the congress may continue to be business as usual. The biggest indictor of that has been the lack or real alternative proposals to all the crap that has come from the GOP. I mean if the GOP policy is so bad should it not be easy to propose alternatives that should get passed with ease? The years of approval of military spending without any real conditions is what I think amounts to my largest grip I have against the Democrats. This is why I don’t think regime change at the highest level is going to be the end all be all answer to all of our frustrations with the last 8 years. (But will be a start)

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