Shout Box

Who's Online
1 registered (Rickster), 10 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Page 16 of 19 < 1 2 ... 14 15 16 17 18 19 >
Topic Options
#50144 - 12/22/09 03:54 PM Re: Guantanamo transfer [Re: MarcC]
AOR Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/27/04
Posts: 392
Originally Posted By: MarcC
Originally Posted By: AOR
Originally Posted By: talus
Originally Posted By: mworking
I do believe that many of the prisoners held there should have been released long ago, and some should never have been there in the first place, but hopefully our government found a small percentage of prisoners who are actually worthy of being detained!


so you know all the prisoners personally and that they are innocent. you must be a secret agent.


M...I tend to agree with talus. That is a pretty broad and blanket statement. Would you care to expound on your reasonings?

I'll let mworking do his own research and justification, but everyone might want to give this a read first:
http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/2009/03/some_truths_abo/


Yeah, umm...you'll have to forgive me as I look at this with a jaundiced eye. The Washington Note (Steve Clemons) is just about the most left-leaning blog on the 'net. But, you're certainly entitled to your views.

Top
#50147 - 12/22/09 06:10 PM Re: Guantanamo transfer [Re: AOR]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
My response to Taluss statement:

"so you know all the prisoners personally and that they are innocent. you must be a secret agent."

Id love to tell you, but then Id have to kill you ! :-)

Actually Id like to edit my statement to say

I do believe that too many of the prisoners held there should have been released long ago, and some should never have been there in the first place, but hopefully our government found a small percentage of prisoners who are actually worthy of being detained!

Markcs link sums thing up pretty well and I have read and heard plenty more from different sources all saying the same thing. I dont record where I heard what, but if the Fox propaganda machine is your only source of information youll never hear any of this.

I have also heard at least a half dozen specific stories over the last couple of years relating the appalling way things were done with prisoners who ended up at Guantanamo. Heres a memorable one:

http://audio.thisamericanlife.org/player/CPRadio_player.php?podcast=http://www.thisamericanlife.org/xmlfeeds/331.xml&proxyloc=http://audio.thisamericanlife.org/player/customproxy.php

Top
#50148 - 12/22/09 06:11 PM Re: Guantanamo transfer [Re: AOR]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Originally Posted By: AOR
Yeah, umm...you'll have to forgive me as I look at this with a jaundiced eye. The Washington Note (Steve Clemons) is just about the most left-leaning blog on the 'net. But, you're certainly entitled to your views.

You might want to note that the author of that entry was not Steve Clemons. It was Lawrence B. Wilkerson, Chief of Staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell.
_________________________
- Marc

Top
#50149 - 12/22/09 08:30 PM Re: Guantanamo transfer [Re: MarcC]
AOR Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/27/04
Posts: 392
I realize that...but, it's Clemon's website.

Top
#50153 - 12/22/09 09:36 PM Re: Guantanamo transfer [Re: AOR]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
I'm not familiar with the Steve Clemens or the Washington Note, but left or right, unless they are known for disbursing falsehoods – essentially propaganda, then what difference does it make where you read an article by Lawrence B. Wilkerson, Chief of Staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell, the article is by him.

Top
#50158 - 12/23/09 02:49 AM Re: Guantanamo transfer [Re: mworking]
AOR Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/27/04
Posts: 392
I have read material from Lawrence B. Wilkerson, "Chief of Staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell" and have much respect for his vast and storied career, both military and professional. And, if you've read Lawrence B. Wilkerson, "Chief of Staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell", you'll come to understand that he became very disillusioned with his prior political beliefs for various reasons he most vociferously espouses. He is most vocal about blaming Dick Cheney from everything from the disappearance of Amelia Earhart to the kidnapping of the Lindbergh baby.

In over eight years, more than half of the almost 800 Gitmo prisoners have already been released, with another appr. 200+ released this year. This leaves just over 200 prisoners left on site. In his writings, Wilkerson has stated that appr. 90% of the current Gitmo prisoners do not present a security risk to this country…that leave just a little over 20 prisoners that are "really" security risks to this country.

Personally, I find that to be a load of horsecrap.

Top
#50159 - 12/23/09 03:20 AM Re: Guantanamo transfer [Re: AOR]
Daniel Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/23/01
Posts: 1515
Originally Posted By: AOR
Personally, I find that to be a load of horsecrap.


Based on what?

The track record of justifications for holding detainees at Guantanamo seems pretty poor, given how many have already been released.

The administration assured the public that the detainees were "the worst of the worst." Yet one of the few detainees actually subjected to the Military Commissions process wound up in a plea bargain that required him only to return to Australia and serve 9 months of a suspended 7 year sentence. That's what our government thinks is proper treatment for one of the worst of the worst?

I don't dispute the assumption that the remaining detainees probably represent the harder cases. But we can't know until they're provided with meaningful process.

We very well may be holding significant numbers of people who have no reason to be held. And if the executive branch can start making exceptions regarding who can challenge the legitimacy of their detention, then it's hard to tell how far the exceptions will go. Not only does our failure to provide meaningful process make us look like hypocrites, but it endangers the rights of all of us. Not too long ago, the Bush administration was arguing that it could declare anyone an "enemy combatant" and essentially subject them to indefinite detention with no legal recourse--including citizens.

After far too long a delay, I think these people need to be provided process rights if only to ensure that such rights remain intact for ourselves. If we think our justice system is so superior to everyone else's, then we should have little to fear in its ability to sort out the properly detained from the innocent.

From "A Man For All Seasons":

William Roper: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!
Sir Thomas More: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
William Roper: Yes, I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
Sir Thomas More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!

Top
#50161 - 12/23/09 04:24 AM Re: Guantanamo transfer [Re: talus]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4275
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Originally Posted By: talus
Originally Posted By: mworking
I do believe that many of the prisoners held there should have been released long ago, and some should never have been there in the first place, but hopefully our government found a small percentage of prisoners who are actually worthy of being detained!


so you know all the prisoners personally and that they are innocent. you must be a secret agent.


They are all innocent.








Until proven guilty.


A minor detail that Cheney & Co. would surely like to ignore.

Top
#50162 - 12/23/09 05:38 AM Re: Guantanamo transfer [Re: Mike Rawdon]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
Originally Posted By: Mike Rawdon
Originally Posted By: talus
Originally Posted By: mworking
I do believe that many of the prisoners held there should have been released long ago, and some should never have been there in the first place, but hopefully our government found a small percentage of prisoners who are actually worthy of being detained!


so you know all the prisoners personally and that they are innocent. you must be a secret agent.


They are all innocent.

til proven guilty.


A minor detail that Cheney & Co. would surely like to ignore.



No, did ignore. By the way, your point is exactly why I am so vociferous about this.

Top
#50164 - 12/23/09 05:53 AM Re: Guantanamo transfer [Re: AOR]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
Originally Posted By: AOR
I have read material from Lawrence B. Wilkerson, "Chief of Staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell" and have much respect for his vast and storied career, both military and professional. And, if you've read Lawrence B. Wilkerson, "Chief of Staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell", you'll come to understand that he became very disillusioned with his prior political beliefs for various reasons he most vociferously espouses. He is most vocal about blaming Dick Cheney from everything from the disappearance of Amelia Earhart to the kidnapping of the Lindbergh baby.

In over eight years, more than half of the almost 800 Gitmo prisoners have already been released, with another appr. 200+ released this year. This leaves just over 200 prisoners left on site. In his writings, Wilkerson has stated that appr. 90% of the current Gitmo prisoners do not present a security risk to this country…that leave just a little over 20 prisoners that are "really" security risks to this country.

Personally, I find that to be a load of horsecrap.


The last minute of the program I referenced states that due to complaint that there were no high value prisoners at Guantanamo GW had 14 brought in from the CIA. So 20 is probably very realistic.

Perhaps youd "care to expound on your reasonings"

Top
Page 16 of 19 < 1 2 ... 14 15 16 17 18 19 >


Moderator:  webmaster 
Sponsored