"This does point out that a leader who happens upon a route and is expecting a certain level of difficulty and/or protection is still the final arbiter of what dangers and difficulties he or she is willing to confront"

FWIW, at least with the pin gone, the leader's evaluation of the level of protection is less likely to be distorted by the misleading comfort of a seeminly reliable pin . . . .

I'm still waiting for someone to replace the pin on Laurel. Since it was pulled no one ever climbs it anymore.

No, no one ever climbs it anymore because it's too busy and you have to wait in line.

[/Yogi]

THe runout end of the pitch isn't the crux? My 2 cents... I appreciate that someone had the sense to test it gently while seconding, but there are some risks in this behavior. Especially with omni-directional hammer aided pulls (I'm thinking about Julie and her hammer).
The fat city, criss cross or try again pins are tested regularly. Same with the bolts on keep on struttin and arrow. What's worse??? the hidden danger of a manked pin that logs little air time or an incompetent leader that logs plenty?
Heres to the onsite climber!!!

Sketchy, not too clear what you are referring to, but the purportedly but not really runout end of City Lights and/or Pas de Deux (depending on which way you go) is nowhere near being the crux of the route.

The rest of your point is even less clear to me. You seem to be speaking of risks involved in removing fixed protection that is dangerously inadequate, but all your references seem to be to fixed protection which, at least according to your standard that it hasn't pulled or broken yet, is adequate.

Umm, err, just wear safety goggles and you'll be fine?? You do always climb with safety goggles, right??

Seriously, rg is being awfully nice here. Charitable, even...

wha ???

I've only used a hammer once, and tried to be careful about using it in light of my inexperience. So, what's yer point?

Good thread insofar as reminding ourselves that those old pins are totally suspect!! Keep a screamer or two on hand at least, for that one pin you know you need, but don't really trust. Ever since a friend easily wiggled out the knifeblade piton that used to be in the potato chip flake not far below the anchor on Broken Sling (which I'd blithely clipped many times, even though there's other gear to be had), revealing the last two inches or so of the blade to be no thicker than tin foil, I've been very wary of Gunks pins!

But I do love those honker angle irons! Especially the shiny new, replacement ones!

I like the pins. They show you where the line goes. When I lead High E onsight in 1991 there were 5 pins on the last pitch alone.
But clipping one or falling on one - ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME. Gunks pins/bolts were placed when gear options were extremely limited. You have good gear right next to the pin on Never Never Land. Birdland is a sport climb, there’s a pod for a blue metolius 2 ft right of the second bolt on arrow. You could wander around and stumble into 3 different lines above the bolts on PDD (all in grade).
My point was why test pins, why post on a website that supplies beta to gumbies that “I tested it and it seemed sound” why NOT pull em all. We don't treat fixed cams with such respect. It drives me nuts to hear my friends say they fell on the try again pin 10 times over 4 different days before the redpoint. I feel an associated liability to these idiots for not lecturing them. “THE LEADER NEVER FALLS” My 2 cents, clean em all and If you can clean out the hole to accept a small wire or micro cam more power to you.
But to clip, let alone rely on a 20 year old pin for fall protection is crazy.

loud talk from the new guy!