Shout Box

Who's Online
0 registered (), 11 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Page 4 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >
Topic Options
#40396 - 10/03/08 06:12 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: empicard]
sketchy john Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 17
Loc: Long Island New York
I got an Idea for a fundraiser. Auction the old pins for hood ornaments. The cop can shove your ticket in them when you park in the overlook all day on a Saturday in November.


Edited by sketchy john (10/03/08 06:13 PM)

Top
#40404 - 10/03/08 11:42 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: sketchy john]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Sketchy, I don't think I ever saw 5 fixed pins on High E. The trustworthiness of your memory in this regard is undercut by the fact that you seem to remember bolts on PDD, where there are none and have never been any.

Your comment, "why test pins, why post on a website that supplies beta to gumbies that “I tested it and it seemed sound,” makes it sound as if somebody certified online that this or that piton is trustworthy. Nothing of the sort has ever happened, and selectively quoting Dick on the Fat City pin is extremely misleading.

For the record, what he said is

"When I tested it I realized that the soft iron pin would break if I tried to remove it. It seemed solid but who knows how rusted it is inside the crack."

Reading that as misleading gumbies (there are gumbies climbing Fat City?) is a truly mighty stretch.

As for pulling them all, I almost agree with you. Maybe not all, but I think that a large percentage of the fixed pins now in place should go, and that a fixed pin should be a last-ditch response to a seriously unprotectable difficulty of some magnitude. But this is far from a universal opinion; even in this thread there are comments suggesting missing fixed protection needs to be replaced. Removing and not replacing existing fixed protection risks starting a piton war, returning us to the bad old days of crack scarring. We've seen the results of purism extremists at work and I think most of us feel any "victories" they won were Pyhrric, with the scarred rock the final and enduring victim.

The net result is that while there are quite a few people ready to criticize, there are only a few public-spirited individuals who are willing to go to the trouble to carry a hammer and take time out of their climbing day to test fixed pro on the routes they are climbing. If the pin seems sound, it is redriven and left as is. The only ones removed are those that are unquestionably a danger to the unwary. Most of the time, as in PDD/CL, there is really no need to put another pin back in.

The whole situation is really a bit weird. We now have a situation in which a large number of climbers, perhaps a majority, have little or no knowlege of the use of pitons, do not own any pitons, and have never placed or removed any pitons. They now seem to depend on a dwindling coterie of old farts, who are getting older by the minute, and a few local climbers with big-wall and alpine experience to ``maintain'' the cliffs for them.

We hear pleas about this or that needing to happen, always with an undertone of entitlement: somebody needs to do something about this for me because, by god, it's dangerous. I honestly don't recognize anything in this attitude that I think of as part of a climber's credo. When you step onto the rock, your safety is your responsibilty, and you bloody well better be ready to deal with whatever you find, including the unexpected absence of a piton, which may well have been no good anyway, or a loose or missing hold.

It's not a damn gym where you complain to the owner that the tape is missing on a critical jib. If there are people around who are willing to maintain the fixed protection, we should certainly be grateful for their efforts, but it is wrong and unseemly to assign any iota of responsibility for our safety to anyone else.

Top
#40412 - 10/04/08 02:30 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: rg@ofmc]
chip Online   content
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2679
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
"We hear pleas about this or that needing to happen, always with an undertone of entitlement: somebody needs to do something about this for me because, by god, it's dangerous. I honestly don't recognize anything in this attitude that I think of as part of a climber's credo. When you step onto the rock, your safety is your responsibilty, and you bloody well better be ready to deal with whatever you find, including the unexpected absence of a piton, which may well have been no good anyway, or a loose or missing hold.

It's not a damn gym where you complain to the owner that the tape is missing on a critical jib. If there are people around who are willing to maintain the fixed protection, we should certainly be grateful for their efforts, but it is wrong and unseemly to assign any iota of responsibility for our safety to anyone else."

AMEN!

Top
#40416 - 10/05/08 08:40 AM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: rg@ofmc]
redtag Offline
journeyman

Registered: 06/26/07
Posts: 98
indeed brother...amen to that

Top
#40432 - 10/06/08 01:19 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: redtag]
sketchy john Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 17
Loc: Long Island New York
Sorry RG I meant no disrespect to you or Dicks efforts. I was referring to the bolted anchor at the end of P1.
I know you guys would never certify fixed protection but what I’ve seen over the last 18 years at the gunks (and my relatively limited 28 years climbing) is that as gear has evolved leaders have demonstrated an increasing pretense to rely on it and you, Dick, and the Rangers have seen this too. Maybe it’s the gym rat or sport climbing mentality that “all gear is good” that got us here. I’ve climbed with a lot of newbies over the past 8 years that have never built or equalized a gear anchor, never placed/cleaned a tri-cam, think that they should be leading 5.10, after climbing outdoors for a season, because that’s what they climb in the gym. They jump on routes like arrow because the crux is bolted or birdland because they hear there’s at least 10 pins (ground to top).
What I see on a busy weekend makes me sick. In 1990 you heard about a lead fall a few times a week, now you see it first hand 5-6 day. Christ, I saw a guy a few months ago (who had to borrow a chalk bag because he forgot his) doing P2 of modern times, with a piece at the start of the business at the lip of the roof clipped to a 4 ft runner then clipped to a 1 foot quickdraw which was clipped to the rope. his only other piece was 30 ft below that. He climbed through the first and second roof, changed his mind, start to down climb a move or two, (enough to assure his leg was securely behind the rope) then fall 30 ft head first upside down on his single piece of protection. He should be dead. And you or I are expected to clean up the mess.
These same gumbies with a head full of confidence from their conquest of climbs like arrow and never never land are now trying other 5.10s that they hear have pins (or bolts) at the crux, hangdogging the whole way, and falling repeatedly on these, the very same fixed pins which you and I love, and are the reason our proud lines don’t look like serenity crack.
My point was simply this - if the pin/bolt (fixed protection) or mid route fixed tat (bail) anchors weren’t there and proud lines like try again, criss cross, fat city, keep on struttin, arrow… were changed to R/X maybe, just maybe, these idiots wouldn’t launch themselves into the breech and test these 20 year old artifacts. And yes, I wouldn’t mind walking down a little further to rap, or fixing a belay mid route, just like the old bold days when passes were buttons and the leader never falls.

Top
#40433 - 10/06/08 01:26 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: sketchy john]
sketchy john Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 17
Loc: Long Island New York
Oh and how about this weekend:
Frustration syndrome, the stand, Wasp, Honkey tonk woman, Mincer into Harvest moon, white pillar, hang 10, up yours and elder cleavage direct

Not bad for an old guy

Top
#40435 - 10/06/08 02:12 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: sketchy john]
Coppertone Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Newtown, CT
 Originally Posted By: sketchy john
Oh and how about this weekend:
Frustration syndrome, the stand, Wasp, Honkey tonk woman, Mincer into Harvest moon, white pillar, hang 10, up yours and elder cleavage direct

Not bad for an old guy


Wow your great. Can I follow you so I can learn how the climb the right way. Can I spray too? Did you clip the bolt on Honkey Tonk Woman relying on that to keep you safe?

Top
#40438 - 10/06/08 02:36 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: Coppertone]
sketchy john Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 17
Loc: Long Island New York
You bet I clipped the bolt then cursed swains name for calling it PG, Then climbed it clean onsight to the top. How'd you do on it?
I'll tell you what, I'll post some photos from the weekend and call it a trip report so I don't offend your sensibilities.
And if climbing "the right way" means sharing space, a limited resource and not being carried out on a litter, then yea, I'll share a rope with you.

Top
#40443 - 10/06/08 03:28 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: sketchy john]
Coppertone Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Newtown, CT
 Originally Posted By: sketchy john
You bet I clipped the bolt then cursed swains name for calling it PG, Then climbed it clean onsight to the top. How'd you do on it?
I'll tell you what, I'll post some photos from the weekend and call it a trip report so I don't offend your sensibilities.
And if climbing "the right way" means sharing space, a limited resource and not being carried out on a litter, then yea, I'll share a rope with you.


I don't know that picture is kind of scary. Not sure I could look at that all day.

I've done Honkey Tonk Woman, clipped the bolt as well as well as some sketchy brassies too. Not really a big fan though as it was very nondescript, uninteresting climbing and I do like slab.

Had a pretty good day climbing yesterday as well, and not a single fixed piece on any of the routes that we did outside of the anchors.

Top
#40445 - 10/06/08 05:11 PM Re: A Dead Piton's Final Words [Re: Coppertone]
empicard Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2957
Loc: LI, NY
hows this for thread derailment:
once you've placed that first bolt on honky tonk women, why not a second? why would keep it PG/R above the bolt? thats just silly.
_________________________
tOOthless

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

Top
Page 4 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >


Moderator:  daryl512 
Sponsored