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#41223 - 11/05/08 04:22 PM Re: small gear preferences [Re: Smike]
Chas Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/22/01
Posts: 1754
Loc: Flagstaff
I go with C3's from the red all the way down to the smallest one, which is grey (I think its their 000). On a 5.13a crack that I have tried a few times, at the beginning of the crux, all I can get in is the purple (00) C3 and then part of the way I can get a grey (000) C3. Nothing else fits except a ballnut and the C3's gives me more confidence.

For me the C3's rule since a) they are well made and engineered, b) they are thinner width wise so they can place in cracks where other pieces can't.

The metolius TCU's are well made but valuable real estate is taken up with the brazes

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#41228 - 11/05/08 05:35 PM Re: small gear preferences [Re: Chas]
Frank Florence Online   content
addict

Registered: 01/05/00
Posts: 529
Loc: moved to Bend
I occasionally carry one or both of the two smallest size ballnuts, but, like RG, treat them as a specialty item, intended to solve the pro issue on a particular pitch. I used to carry a 00 TCU, but as Chas mentioned, it requires a relatively wide span of crack in order to be placed. I switched to the 0.1 and 0.2 Camalots, which are only a little less wide. They're now obsolete and the better mousetraps, in my opinion, are the C3s. Their narrow head design increases opportunities for placement and placing and cleaning are generally quicker than with any of the other items I mentioned.

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#41251 - 11/06/08 11:12 AM Re: small gear preferences [Re: Frank Florence]
LarE Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 45
I've never really felt the need to place a ballnut. In fact, the only time I've used a ballnut in the Gunks was the one that was fixed on Jean for a long time... that one I clipped happily and used gratuitously. I have also happily led Jean without the fixed ballnut in place. When the going gets thin, I tend to (a) place a LOT of RPs, HB offsets and #2 and #3 Stoppers; or (b) continue upward until I can get something reasonable.

I guess the second time Hugh Herr did Condemned Man, he fell and ripped out all but ONE of his dicey RP placements. There's a moral to that story, but darned if I can think of it...

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#41260 - 11/06/08 04:09 PM Re: small gear preferences [Re: LarE]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
The moral is that dicey placements are dicey.

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#41275 - 11/06/08 07:14 PM Re: small gear preferences [Re: rg@ofmc]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
I was trying to figure out how much force would be felt on the first piece, and went looking for a fall force calc. This was the first one that comes up in google.

http://www.myoan.net/climbart/climbforcecal.html
Uh... is it me or is the fall factor calculation wrong?

Plugging in numbers, say 180lbs, 10' rope and 1' above the pro gives just over 5KN on the climber, which is almost 8KN on the top piece? That's almost twice the rating of the smallest ballnutz. Guess you definitely need a screamer for those.
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#41286 - 11/06/08 08:13 PM Re: small gear preferences [Re: quanto_the_mad]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
 Originally Posted By: quanto_the_mad
I was trying to figure out how much force would be felt on the first piece, and went looking for a fall force calc. This was the first one that comes up in google.

http://www.myoan.net/climbart/climbforcecal.html
Uh... is it me or is the fall factor calculation wrong?

Plugging in numbers, say 180lbs, 10' rope and 1' above the pro gives just over 5KN on the climber, which is almost 8KN on the top piece? That's almost twice the rating of the smallest ballnutz. Guess you definitely need a screamer for those.


Yea, it looks fishy. A 2' fall on 100' of rope still gives 4.6 kN.

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#41302 - 11/06/08 11:09 PM Re: small gear preferences [Re: Mike Rawdon]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
A cursory inspection suggests that the turkey who produced this bit of silliness thinks that if d = distance from last anchor and L = length of rope, then

Fall factor = 1 + (d/L).

Some consequences of this are that the fall factor is never less than 1 for any fall, and that the fall factor is 1 if you don't fall any distance at all (i.e. if d = 0.)

I guess this is an object lesson in not believing everything you see on the web.

I think the Petzl calculator is ok; sorry not to have a link but someone will, no doubt, post one. I'll consult the Goldstone calculator tonight when I get home and post some numbers.

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#41303 - 11/06/08 11:36 PM Re: small gear preferences [Re: rg@ofmc]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
Thanks. Since you posted the pic of DW leading above two ballnuts (which you never did identify), and the other post about not going too high above them, I was just curious to see the forces involved as you moved above the piece(s), if they would actually hold a fall doubled up or with a screamer.
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#41312 - 11/07/08 04:12 PM Re: small gear preferences [Re: quanto_the_mad]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
QtM, I didn't identify the picture because I forgot the route. Perhaps someone will recognize it.

Here are some calculations for a 4.5 kN piece like the #1 Ball Nut. I assumed a static belay (which is reasonable), a rope with an 8 kN UIAA rating, the standard 80 kg leader, and friction over the top biner equal to 1/3 the load on the leader's side. These assumptions mean that the leader fall impact must be less than 2.7 kN, and with the assumptions mentioned that corresponds to a fall factor of about 0.1.

What this means is that the piece is likely to break (assuming it stays in) if the leader advances more than a foot above the Ball Nut for every twenty feet of advance from the belay (a foot above the protection means that the tie-in is a foot above the protection).

This ain't much, of course---you have to be 80 feet out or so before you could contemplate letting such a placement get as low as foot level---but if you think about using such pieces as overhead protection, they may enable you to step up to better holds and/or better placements in a situation that would otherwise be far worse protected. Of course, as I mentioned earlier, such an overhead protection strategy could add more danger than it is worth (in the form of longer fall potential) if you aren't using double ropes.

I think that in the picture in question, Dick had a #3 and #4 placed near each other and clipped together. (When doing this, the pieces have to be placed and set with their directions of pull in mind, because Ball Nuts do not seem to tolerate rotation very well.) Those pieces are, I think, rated at 8 kN each and together should be physically strong enough for almost any impact.

A number of people have mentioned Screamers. By and large, Screamers are overrated and cannot be expected to make much difference in medium to large falls. The one situation they might make a genuine contribution to load reduction is for short falls, which is what we are talking about with small gear. So I think putting Screamers on Ball Nuts and brassies is a good idea if you do it with the mind-set of increasing the chance that the gear will hold a short fall. But imagining that the Screamer will in any meaningful way increase the size of the fall you might take is probably wishful thinking.

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#41316 - 11/07/08 04:56 PM Re: small gear preferences [Re: rg@ofmc]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
Ah, thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for. I'm sure that there are a lot of us who have looked at the new guide and contemplated getting ballnutz.

I'd never really given a thought on how to use small gear, mostly have tried to avoid using them since I wasn't sure if they would hold. The overhead strategy makes sense with small gear.

Guess I have all winter to think about it. Thanks again!
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