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#41930 - 11/24/08 03:27 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Kent]
andrew Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 1816
Loc: Denver, CO
No offshore trips? Damn! I really want to get back out for some big fish after getting sailfish on a fly rod a few months back in Guatemala.

Kent, I do feel for you with your situation. I just don't understand why you would punish someone like me that had absolutely nothing to do with your situation and no ability to change it. I feel bad for Eddie too - it sucks when people don't respect your property.

I just have a fundamental disagreement with how to handle this sort of problem. As a landowner, my philosophy is to work with recreational groups to give as much access as possible, if for no other reason than to help set an example for other landowners that have land I want access to. I am so grateful for generous landowners that give me access to climb, fish, hike, hunt, surf, etc. In return, I am a good steward of those lands and respect the owner's privacy. If asked, I do more - i've seen some really positive communities in the west where user groups have helped landowners repair fences, rehabilitate streams, clean up days, etc. The fly fishing community seems to do this much better than the climbing community - maybe there are lessons to be learned there.

I just ask that all landowners think back to how much they have benefited from access to private lands in the past, and to ask themselves if they can't help pay back that trust by granting access of their own. We could lose places like where Eddie and I went fishing in Utah(all private land) without that kind of generosity.
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This isn't an office. It's Hell with fluorescent lighting.

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#41931 - 11/24/08 03:31 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: pda]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Oh vomitous and prolonged thread, I stab you in your heart with my venomnous dagger, in the hope that you bleed profusely and die!!!!

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#41932 - 11/24/08 03:38 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: pda]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
pda......virtually everyone that climbs in The Nears is a Preserve member. The Preserve was intimately involved. When defending their involvement in the town planning and zoning processes they invoked representation of their many members. As I've pointed out before, prominent climbers serve on the boards of the Preserve, the FOS, the GCC. Prominent climbers spoke out in support of the law at public hearings. Climbers and other recreationists who voted for the pro-zoning town board knew full well what the board intended to do.


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#41933 - 11/24/08 03:39 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: RangerRob]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2675
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Long live the thread!

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#41935 - 11/24/08 03:58 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Kent]
pda Offline
addict

Registered: 08/30/01
Posts: 621
Loc: Bergen County NJ
Well Kent- those that pushed for the zoning law no doubt belong to many groups, and those groups no doubt have many members, but that does not make each and every member of those groups guilty by association.

Most climbers who are preserve members joined simply to gain access to the property; they are not weighing in on (nor do they have much say) in what the preserve is doing on various issues.

I think the climbers have become a scapegoat here, because it is easy for the landowners to harm them (through removing access) than to get at the preserve directly.

None of this has anything to do with Rosendale.

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#41936 - 11/24/08 04:05 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: pda]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
PDA- I recognize that there are many groups involved. The land closures apply to everyone. Not just climbers.

It's similar to Rosendale in that Eddie pretty much looked the other way regarding climbing access on his land, until someone bolted it. Ridge landowners in Gardiner have pretty much looked the other way regarding climbing access, until the community took hundreds of thousands of dollars in property value from them.

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#41939 - 11/24/08 04:25 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: andrew]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
Andrew, if you are coming to town next year, let me know and I'll try to hook you up with an offshore trip out of Westerly, RI, if you are interested. Expenses are shared. July, August, and September are, of course, best.

I too have been on many private properties recreating in the past. If those landowners were now in the position we ridge landowners are in, I'd show my appreciation by deferring to whatever the landowner felt they needed to do.

Ridge landowners in Gardiner have heretofore been exceedingly generous about access for recreationists. As well some landowners have donated money and/or made significant legacy commitments to the Preserve. For our generosity we've been thrown under the bus. Pretty much all generosity has now been rescinded to the degree possible.

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#41941 - 11/24/08 05:32 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Kent]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
 Originally Posted By: Kent
...until the community took hundreds of thousands of dollars in property value from them.

Please clarify this for us. Are you suggesting that talus slope and cliff face are worth hundreds of kilobucks in property value?
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- Marc

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#41942 - 11/24/08 06:13 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: MarcC]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
 Quote:
Are you suggesting that talus slope and cliff face are worth hundreds of kilobucks in property value?

No, but the slopes below the cliff face and talus slopes are (were) worth kilo bucks.


Edited by Kent (11/24/08 06:16 PM)

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#41943 - 11/24/08 09:07 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Kent]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
hundreds of thousands is an awfully big number, Kent. You should be prepared to justify it. Where I come from, an empty house lot is not worth that much.

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