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#41465 - 11/12/08 02:03 AM Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING
Eddie Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1446
Loc: NP. NY
hello all,

here is another example of irresponsible climbing practices leading to a closure by a land owner!

Not only did climbers trespass onto private land they took it one step further and proceeded to vandalize the cliff also! They took it upon themselves to bolt the cliff and install anchors! no permission was given to use the land or bolt the rock!

I am the owner of the rock. i am appalled with the inconsiderate, selfish, and disrespect climbers now exhibit! i had heard that there was bolts in the rock, but i was just not wanting to face the facts and go look. well today i did! i had to ask the 4 climbers to pack there stuff and pull the ropes as there were trespassing and had not asked my permission. there are at least 5 routes. to make matters worse one line is bolted through a VERY VERY unstable formation! So we also have a stupid bolter who bolted a SUPER dangerous line!

Let me just make something very clear. MOST LAND IS NOT PUBLIC LAND! IF THE LAND IS PUBLIC IT WILL SAY SO WITH A SIGN! WHEN IN DOUBT ASK PERMISSION BEFORE ENTERING ANY LAND

I am an outdoor person. i hunt, fish, climb,operate ATVS,and shoot photos. I ALWAYS ASK PERMISSION TO ACCESS ANY LAND!!! PERIOD!

DO NOT ATTEMPT TO CLIMB ON OR IN THE ROSENDALE CAVE! tell your fellow climbers. my patience is gone. i will not ask again! IF anyone is caught at the cave they will be speaking directly to the police! NO WARNINGS!

TRESPASSERS WILL BE ARRESTED AND I WILL PRESS CHARGES!

Be assured WHEN i find out who vandalized my property i will swear out a warrant for his/her/their arrest!



Edited by Eddie (11/12/08 02:14 AM)
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#41467 - 11/12/08 12:51 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Eddie]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Wow! I don't think there is anyone who could possibly blame you for your reaction. An unbelievable act for them to have done.

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#41469 - 11/12/08 01:25 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: chip]
skillet Offline
journeyman

Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 73
Loc: long island,ny
what would you say any of those routes were rated? just curious.
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#41472 - 11/12/08 02:32 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: skillet]
dstrickler Offline
stranger

Registered: 04/26/07
Posts: 23
Those routes have been in place for at least 10 years...
The grades of the routes are 5.12 and above.

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#41473 - 11/12/08 02:37 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: dstrickler]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
Hey Eddie,
When was the date that you received that note?



Edited by Smike (11/12/08 04:34 PM)
Edit Reason: Got it, was thinking of another location. Agree with you now!

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#41478 - 11/12/08 04:06 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: dstrickler]
Eddie Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1446
Loc: NP. NY
 Originally Posted By: dstrickler
Those routes have been in place for at least 10 years...
The grades of the routes are 5.12 and above.


they have NOT been up for 10 years!

you maybe thinking of a different cave!

smike. i received no note.
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#41484 - 11/12/08 05:06 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Eddie]
Eddie Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1446
Loc: NP. NY
two more items! again, i stress that permission is needed to climb on any private property (ie. any rosendale cave).

i have a call into the other cave owners in rosendale. i will very persuasively suggest that they too close their caves to climbing and climbing activities!
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#41490 - 11/12/08 05:49 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Eddie]
Jgreene Offline
member

Registered: 07/17/08
Posts: 171
Sorry to hear about your troubles. I hope it works it out. What a sucky situation.

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#41500 - 11/12/08 07:31 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Eddie]
SnowJunkie Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/14/06
Posts: 27
Loc: NY
I agree that people shouldn't have been on your property and it is your right as the owner to close it off to everyone and for all activities that you so deem. BUT I also think that calling other landowners to persuade them to remove access is petty, reeks of revenge and brings about nothing but negativity and more harm then good. Just because you've been wronged doesn't mean you need to call up everyone and start moaning and groaning about how they need to bar climbers from coming on their property... let them make their own decisions.
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#41505 - 11/12/08 08:13 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: SnowJunkie]
Eddie Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1446
Loc: NP. NY
 Originally Posted By: SnowJunkie
I agree that people shouldn't have been on your property and it is your right as the owner to close it off to everyone and for all activities that you so deem. BUT I also think that calling other landowners to persuade them to remove access is petty, reeks of revenge and brings about nothing but negativity and more harm then good. Just because you've been wronged doesn't mean you need to call up everyone and start moaning and groaning about how they need to bar climbers from coming on their property... let them make their own decisions.


i plan to bring it to the landowners attention! they may not even know that they have trespassers on their property vandalizing it!

it is the land owners right to have the information! you need to remember that there is a significant liability here! if a climber is hurt the will inevitably be suing the land owner! i believe the land owner is entitled to be informed of any possible liability he/she may have!

let me remind you that is was some unscrupulous, low down, trespassing, sneaky, vandal of a climber that has brought this to the climbing community! i am only reacting to this and protecting myself and my land.

this is what happens when you break the law and vandalize someones property....backlash! you obviously do not see exactly how F!@#ING angry i am about this!

i plan to let the other land owners make their own decisions. what do you think they are going to say and think when they find out that climbers have trespassed and then proceeded to vandalize their property? i believe they will react exactly as i have! remember i am a climber and i am pissed off! imagine what a non-climber is going to think?!

this is a simple, basic example of respect! the climber did not respect the land owner and now everyone will suffer!

think about this the next time "you" decide to disrespect some one or their property. you have no right to trespass on any property! tell your friends! the person who bolted my rock is a friend of some one on this board!
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#41510 - 11/12/08 08:30 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Eddie]
RockHarder Offline
stranger

Registered: 11/12/08
Posts: 10
Troll

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#41511 - 11/12/08 08:40 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: RockHarder]
RockHarder Offline
stranger

Registered: 11/12/08
Posts: 10
I call b.s. on Eddie. People have been climbing in that cave for years. In fact I was hiking in that area a couple of days ago and saw not one "no trespassing" warning. With that said, if in fact im totally wrong, and you are not a troll, shame on you. My god, talk about overreacting, get a f'n life and shut your fat blow hole!

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#41512 - 11/12/08 08:40 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Eddie]
johnm Offline
newbie

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 36
Sorry that you are in this situation Eddie. I don't think that I know the climbers, but I would let people know.

That you could be liable for an injury I think is terrible, a lot of this is due to the nature of liability laws, which I don't agree with.

Climbers tend to get into to things and explore around - I doubt that they wanted to harm you or damage your property in a significant way. There aren't many places where climbers can do this kind of stuff [almost all property is off limits for everything], but I'm not defending it.

It's certainly your prerogative to do whatever you see fit.

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#41514 - 11/12/08 08:46 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: johnm]
Jeff D. Offline
journeyman

Registered: 06/10/05
Posts: 75
Loc: NY, NJ
Strong contender for troll of the year.

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#41515 - 11/12/08 08:47 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: RockHarder]
Eddie Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1446
Loc: NP. NY
 Originally Posted By: RockHarder
I call b.s. on Eddie. People have been climbing in that cave for years. In fact I was hiking in that area a couple of days ago and saw not one "no trespassing" warning. With that said, if in fact im totally wrong, and you are not a troll, shame on you. My god, talk about overreacting, get a f'n life and shut your fat blow hole!


hey rockharder, why do not you post your real name? you do not know what you are talking about! you registered today and you are telling me to shut my fucking blow hole? who the fuck are you? come out behind your computer screen! you have zero credibility! "rockharder" that registered today....shut your fucking face!!!!!

as i said in an earlier post....there are MANY caves in rosendale! my cave has NOT HAD CLIMBING on it for "many years" i know this for a fact!

get your stories correct.

if you need to talk about this you can call me at 845 704 7208! i encourage you to do this!
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#41516 - 11/12/08 08:49 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Jeff D.]
Eddie Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1446
Loc: NP. NY
 Originally Posted By: Jeff D.
Strong contender for troll of the year.


what is wrong with you people? if you think this is a troll why not stop on down to MY cave in rosendale, put your F!@#ing rope up and we will see how serious i am! come outr from behind your computer screen! i dare you! call me! i dare you!
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#41517 - 11/12/08 08:49 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: johnm]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
I like the guy with three total posts... And all of them negative...

calling out a troll...
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#41518 - 11/12/08 08:54 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Eddie]
RockHarder Offline
stranger

Registered: 11/12/08
Posts: 10
"Troll of the Century"! Nice touch with the psycho talk dude! Now I know this is certainly a troll. Bravo!

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#41519 - 11/12/08 08:54 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Eddie]
Jeff D. Offline
journeyman

Registered: 06/10/05
Posts: 75
Loc: NY, NJ
 Originally Posted By: Eddie
 Originally Posted By: Jeff D.
Strong contender for troll of the year.


Blah blah blah (posturing) Waaaaaah!!!! (idle threats)

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#41522 - 11/12/08 09:17 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Jeff D.]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Rock...I would be careful if I were you. Eddie is not a small man.

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#41524 - 11/12/08 09:25 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: RangerRob]
RockHarder Offline
stranger

Registered: 11/12/08
Posts: 10
Rob...not as large as the group you insulted.

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#41526 - 11/12/08 09:57 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: RockHarder]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
Dude, get a clue. It's called sarcasm. Read it again. The "large" group he "insulted" was in fact only the OP of that thread.
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#41527 - 11/12/08 10:08 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Eddie]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Eddie, on behalf of all the local climbers who would never trespass and bolt up someone else's rock, let me say how sad I am to hear about this. Sadly, we both know there are locals who put their own ego and ambitions ahead of others' property rights, ahead of local ethics and traditions, and ahead of the law.

To those who are feeding the flame here, let me assure you that Eddie is a real person, a friend of climbers everywhere (until now), and an honorable gunks.commer since the earliest days. And yes, he really does own a large cave.

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#41529 - 11/12/08 10:28 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Mike Rawdon]
Eddie Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1446
Loc: NP. NY
 Originally Posted By: Mike Rawdon
Eddie, on behalf of all the local climbers who would never trespass and bolt up someone else's rock, let me say how sad I am to hear about this. Sadly, we both know there are locals who put their own ego and ambitions ahead of others' property rights, ahead of local ethics and traditions, and ahead of the law.

To those who are feeding the flame here, let me assure you that Eddie is a real person, a friend of climbers everywhere (until now), and an honorable gunks.commer since the earliest days. And yes, he really does own a large cave.


\:\) \:\)
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#41533 - 11/12/08 11:05 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Eddie]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
Dude lemme tell ya, talking to him this morning for 20 minutes on the phone and he is pissed and should be!

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#41536 - 11/12/08 11:49 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Eddie]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
As the GCC,the local Access Fund affiliate, doesn't have anything to say about respecting private property rights, it seemingly falls to landowners to illuminate what it says on the Access Fund site regarding climbing on private land...

 Quote:
It is every climber's responsibility to know who owns the land on which he or she wants to climb, what access may be available to the crag, and whether there are any land use restrictions that may apply there.





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#41547 - 11/13/08 03:34 AM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: RangerRob]
RockHarder Offline
stranger

Registered: 11/12/08
Posts: 10
 Originally Posted By: RangerRob
Rock... Eddie is not a small man.



Rob..you should know!

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#41548 - 11/13/08 04:02 AM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: RockHarder]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
 Originally Posted By: RockHarder
I call b.s. on Eddie. People have been climbing in that cave for years. In fact I was hiking in that area a couple of days ago and saw not one "no trespassing" warning. With that said, if in fact im totally wrong, and you are not a troll, shame on you. My god, talk about overreacting, get a f'n life and shut your fat blow hole!


wow, all the freaking moron newbies are going off on Eddie as if he's in the wrong here. You guys are idiots. Eddie has a long history on Gunksdot, we're all friends.. you newbies are the ones who need to sit back, chill out, and speak only when spoken to.

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#41550 - 11/13/08 04:30 AM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Eddie]
merlin Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/31/99
Posts: 1352
hey eddie

what happened to bolt the gunks?!?!?!

and umm yeah....watch out...eddie gonna kick yo ass!!!

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#41557 - 11/13/08 12:12 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: pedestrian]
Eddie Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1446
Loc: NP. NY
[/quote] wow, all the freaking moron newbies are going off on Eddie as if he's in the wrong here. You guys are idiots. Eddie has a long history on Gunksdot, we're all friends.. you newbies are the ones who need to sit back, chill out, and speak only when spoken to. [/quote]

thanks ped.


Edited by Eddie (11/13/08 12:14 PM)
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#41558 - 11/13/08 12:12 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: pedestrian]
learningtolead Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 981
Loc: a wanna be kerhonkson-er
 Originally Posted By: pedestrian
 Originally Posted By: RockHarder
I call b.s. on Eddie. People have been climbing in that cave for years. In fact I was hiking in that area a couple of days ago and saw not one "no trespassing" warning. With that said, if in fact im totally wrong, and you are not a troll, shame on you. My god, talk about overreacting, get a f'n life and shut your fat blow hole!


wow, all the freaking moron newbies are going off on Eddie as if he's in the wrong here. You guys are idiots. Eddie has a long history on Gunksdot, we're all friends.. you newbies are the ones who need to sit back, chill out, and speak only when spoken to.


I'm not a newbie here and I do know Eddie and I still think he's lost his mind and is reacting like a nut job. Yes, it sucks that someone bolted part of his cave. That was wrong. But that does not justify blaming anyone and everyone, happily declaring that he will punish everyone for the actions of one or a few, and most especially it does not justify spreading anti-climber rhetoric to other landowners in the area.

He's acting like someone who was mugged and who's now gotten a gun and intends to shoot anyone who walks within 20 feet of him. I'm sorry you were mugged, Eddy, but relax, dude.

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#41559 - 11/13/08 12:32 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: learningtolead]
Eddie Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1446
Loc: NP. NY
LTL,

you seem to have missed the point. when a small group of people break the law or break ethics EVERYONE losses as a result! THIS is how closures of all kinds happen...always. a few morons ruin it for everyone else.

it is not anti climber rhetoric. as i listed above other land owners may not even know this is happening. it is their right to know. people DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO WHAT EVER THEY WANT WHERE EVER THEY WANT! (just because YOU people think it should be that way cause you want it, does not make it so!)

again, their is a liability issue here. PERIOD! they have the right to know.

the inconsiderate people who chose to do this should not have done it. some one here on this board knows the people or they are here now. you all should have stood up and said you can not do that with out permission....you did not stand up for ethics and the law. now the ENTIRE community will suffer.

would it be okay if i can into your home and drilled several holes in your wall and hung MY artwork on the wall? this is no different! you do not want my crappy art illegally installed in your house and i do not want any of your shitty bolts drilled into my cave...very simple.

i can assure you all this lack of support that is being showed here just demonstrates how much the climbing community has gone down the toilet. it seems that climbers now think they can do whatever they want because the WANT to! what happened to ethics, common curtsy and OBEYING THE LAWS? all this no longer applies? and the land owner is wrong? you people have lost your mind!

also, all this negative discourse further enrages me.....the more you attempt to make me (the victim) out to be wrong and the bad guy further entrenches me. the more you push me just insures i work AGAINST THE CLIMBING COMMUNITY! as a local land owner for over 35 years (and a climber) i would think the climbing community would want me as an ally NOT as an opponent. i am a tradition climber, following traditional style. i am also traditional in my approach to day to day activities. i ASK permission for any and all activities that may require it! THIS IS JUST GOOD OLD FASHION COMMON CURTSY AND DECENCY! the climbing community seems to think this no longer applies to them! as a result you as a community will find many many road blocks ahead of you.


Edited by Eddie (11/13/08 12:44 PM)
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#41560 - 11/13/08 12:42 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Eddie]
empicard Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2954
Loc: LI, NY
I'm with Eddie. It is his land, his cave. People should have asked permission. He's a nice guy, perhaps he would have given them permission. but they DIDNT ASK.
Also, he's being a kindly neighbor and alerting his neighbors and friends that "Hey, some jackhole has been trespassing on my property, and vandalizing my land (cave). Perhaps you should keep an eye out too."
There's nothing wrong with that.


Eddie's not small, but he ain't exactly king kong, either. but, put some anger in the man, and you've got problems.

PS. As for MERLIN, WTF? where did Schwortz go? Merlin's back now?
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#41564 - 11/13/08 01:17 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Eddie]
strat Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4242
Eddie,

You're right. Your actions are justified. But, your disbelief in the response on this discussion board shouldn't be surprising to you. Recently, the Mohonk Preserve closed a section of cliff because they deemed it too unstable for people to climb on and some people went there and climbed on it and then posted about it. What I find ridiculous is that the members of this forum that chose to respond weren't unanimous in admonishing the climbers for the action of honoring the Preserve's closure.

It seems that writing about their adventure incited as much rage as the actual act of doing. Here's a quote that demonstrates it, "it's not the climbing, but that "oh look what we did...we're so experienced and all and it's justifiable because we're better than you...now here's the blow by blow for you so you can think we're awesome" No one friggin cares if you go do it. No one cares about your FA It's an inconsequential variation to something anyway. Just the presumption that they were the first ones to do it is so pretentious as to be sickening. How the hell do they know if they were first? They don't. So spraying about it just proves that they are looking for some sort of Gunks noteriety."

And I think you'd be a bit mistaken to let the gunks.com response to your post be indicative of the climbing community at large.

Sam

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#41565 - 11/13/08 01:23 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: empicard]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
There is a large difference between drilling holes in someone's wall and bolting a cave. A little spackle will bring the wall back to original. Most of the rosendale caves were blasted to mine limestone and make cement to build NYC,so it is unlikely that this is a natural cave. I don't know and haven't been to his. From any property owner's perspective, what is left would be much more attractive to me to explore with my family if it didn't have bolts.
When one of my kids does something they assume is OK but didn't ask permission about, I will pull them back to help them learn to ask first in life. Trespass is the least of the issue and irreversible damage has occurred to his property. This is a fine example of petulence and Eddie should have had them arrested. I would have done so if it were my property.

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#41566 - 11/13/08 01:28 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Eddie]
alicex4 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/05/00
Posts: 3400
As they say, "One bad apple can spoil the whole bunch."

Eddie you are completely justified in your reaction and opinion. Any action taken to warn neighbors of the situation is also completely reasonable. People can't violate private property rights willy nilly. Maybe this will be a wake up call for people to realize they are not entitled to climb anywhere they please.

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#41567 - 11/13/08 01:39 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Eddie]
SnowJunkie Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/14/06
Posts: 27
Loc: NY
I find it ironic that Eddie is railing about property owners rights when he admitted that he trespasses on preserve land because he doesn't want to pay for a pass. You can't on one hand rail about property rights and then make the statement (in regards to paying $15 to climb at the preserve) "i will not pay! i promise! look for my ford wagon. catch me if you can." and be taken seriously. You can't have it both ways. I'll reiterate that I and I'm sure many if not all feel for you and agree that it was wrong but your petty and vindictive statements are not helping your cause/issue.
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#41570 - 11/13/08 01:56 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: SnowJunkie]
RockHarder Offline
stranger

Registered: 11/12/08
Posts: 10
Who wants to place bets that Eddie ends up clipping those bolts!

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#41576 - 11/13/08 03:31 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: RockHarder]
Eddie Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1446
Loc: NP. NY
 Originally Posted By: RockHarder
Who wants to place bets that Eddie ends up clipping those bolts!


i wont clip them even when i chop them....i promise!
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#41578 - 11/13/08 03:40 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: SnowJunkie]
Eddie Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1446
Loc: NP. NY
 Originally Posted By: SnowJunkie
I find it ironic that Eddie is railing about property owners rights when he admitted that he trespasses on preserve land because he doesn't want to pay for a pass. You can't on one hand rail about property rights and then make the statement (in regards to paying $15 to climb at the preserve) "i will not pay! i promise! look for my ford wagon. catch me if you can." and be taken seriously. You can't have it both ways. I'll reiterate that I and I'm sure many if not all feel for you and agree that it was wrong but your petty and vindictive statements are not helping your cause/issue.


i have been reformed.....many many years ago.....looks like 3.5 years.

i am asking for any help with my cause/issue. i have the law to straighten out any problems i may have in the future. i am just giving fair warning just in case there are honest climbers who were making misinformed decisions about climbing on private property.

we will be watching.....seems the rosendale cave owners association is in my favor. after speaking with a fellow cave owner he is in full agreement with me. before i explained it to him he told me not to allow climbers on my cave. he is out walking his property right now....and he is calling his neighbor who is also a cave owner. i am sure they both will be on the look out.

the wheels are in motion. be warned. look for new posted signs.

GO BACK TO THE PRESERVE TO CLIMB!


Edited by Eddie (11/13/08 04:13 PM)
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#41579 - 11/13/08 03:46 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Eddie]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2359
Loc: Boston
Hey Eddie - an honest question from a fellow landowner (not near the Gunks):

Do you have No Trespassing signs posted? I know, I know, they shouldn't be required, (and they're ugly) but I'd still like to know whether you do or not?

GO

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#41580 - 11/13/08 03:57 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Eddie]
RockHarder Offline
stranger

Registered: 11/12/08
Posts: 10
Hey Eddie. Sorry bro, I dont know you and I know very little people who post on this site. It seems like the people here have respect for you and you are well liked. Take advice from an objective source. You sound like an ass!

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#41581 - 11/13/08 04:01 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: RockHarder]
pedestrian Offline
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Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
 Originally Posted By: RockHarder
Hey Eddie. Sorry bro, I dont know you and I know very little people who post on this site. It seems like the people here have respect for you and you are well liked. Take advice from an objective source. You sound like an ass!


Are you referring to the wording of his post, or are you upset that his property is closed, as it always was unless otherwise specified?

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#41582 - 11/13/08 04:04 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Eddie]
Julie Offline
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Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
Eddie, I'm sorry it's come to this. It's truly sad that one bad apple can spoil the bunch, but I agree that you're well within your rights here.

I also find it just sad that the response to closure hasn't been "what can we climbers do, as a community, to make this error up to you, and help you maintain your property in the future" ... but instead, a bunch of negativity which of course begets further digging in of heels.

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#41585 - 11/13/08 04:15 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: GOclimb]
Eddie Offline
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Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1446
Loc: NP. NY
i have posted signs many many times, year after year. seems that they all grow feet and walk away. it is difficult to keep up with it i can assure you. i have added new fresh signs....yet again. BUT FWIW even if there are no signs does not insinuate passage is okay.
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#41586 - 11/13/08 04:16 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: RockHarder]
Eddie Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1446
Loc: NP. NY
 Originally Posted By: RockHarder
Hey Eddie. Sorry bro, I dont know you and I know very little people who post on this site. It seems like the people here have respect for you and you are well liked. Take advice from an objective source. You sound like an ass!


now that is calling the kettle black! I sound like an ass?!?!?!?

HHHMMMMM?
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#41587 - 11/13/08 04:17 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Julie]
Eddie Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1446
Loc: NP. NY
 Originally Posted By: Julie
Eddie, I'm sorry it's come to this. It's truly sad that one bad apple can spoil the bunch, but I agree that you're well within your rights here.

I also find it just sad that the response to closure hasn't been "what can we climbers do, as a community, to make this error up to you, and help you maintain your property in the future" ... but instead, a bunch of negativity which of course begets further digging in of heels.


thank you julie.

well said!
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#41588 - 11/13/08 04:31 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Eddie]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Currently much too late, but Julie makes a great suggestion. Unfortunately, the climbers looking to cut their teeth on this type of climb are often the ones least capable of approaching a landowner in a respectful way and negotiating an understanding of access. I don't have any knowledge of who was involved and am making no specific charges of social ineptitude. This is why people like Jim McCarthy were so valuable to our interest in that the older, more seasoned, climber will also have some additional life and probable professional experience to draw from and help prevent and resolve these issues. Europe has a very different approach to property use and that is one of the reasons there seems to be so much developement of caves there. Eddie has been wronged. Plain and simple. I don't know Eddie, but if you are willing to take advice form a stranger, I would suggest that you can only heal when you forgive. That doesn't mean let 'em back and hand over you daughter, too. But rousing the landowners to a fevered pitch may not serve anyone's best interest in the long run. I would personally be offended if someone bolted my cave and didn't invite me to at least share some brews! Of course, I'm kidding, but you may enjoy having a cave to practise mixed winter climbs in and get even more enjoyment out of the property than before. I'm just counseling that you give it a week or two to think about your options.

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#41589 - 11/13/08 04:32 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Julie]
RockHarder Offline
stranger

Registered: 11/12/08
Posts: 10
Threatening climbers on this site,[which makes up less than 1% of the climbing community] with ending climbing elsewhere for those who have been climbing in Rosendale without any problems is obscene. Too bad that you already talked to the owners of the other caves. To my knowledge there have been no access issues at the other cave until.....now. Great job Eddie. Way to screw climbers out of access. I believe the first ascents of those bolted lines were accomplished by folks like Lynn Hill and Russ Clune. Nothing but a bunch of low life, disrespectful, trespassing climbers right Eddie?

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#41590 - 11/13/08 04:34 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: RockHarder]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
An appology should be forthcoming as quickly and sincerly as possible from those involved. If you know the parties, please pass this along quickly.

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#41593 - 11/13/08 05:01 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: chip]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
 Quote:
Currently much too late, but Julie makes a great suggestion. Unfortunately, the climbers looking to cut their teeth on this type of climb are often the ones least capable of approaching a landowner in a respectful way and negotiating an understanding of access. I don't have any knowledge of who was involved and am making no specific charges of social ineptitude. This is why people like Jim McCarthy were so valuable to our interest in that the older, more seasoned, climber will also have some additional life and probable professional experience to draw from and help prevent and resolve these issues.

The GCC was brought into being to facilitate good relationships with landowners and permission to climb. Unfortunately the wrong people are in charge there.

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#41600 - 11/13/08 05:53 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: RockHarder]
Eddie Offline
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Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1446
Loc: NP. NY
 Originally Posted By: RockHarder
Threatening climbers on this site,[which makes up less than 1% of the climbing community] with ending climbing elsewhere for those who have been climbing in Rosendale without any problems is obscene. Too bad that you already talked to the owners of the other caves. To my knowledge there have been no access issues at the other cave until.....now. Great job Eddie. Way to screw climbers out of access. I believe the first ascents of those bolted lines were accomplished by folks like Lynn Hill and Russ Clune. Nothing but a bunch of low life, disrespectful, trespassing climbers right Eddie?


you have not lost anything! to loose you must first have been in possession. "you/they" did not posses the permissions needed to use any private land.

once again you seem to be very mixed in your definition on what happened here. remember, climbers overstepped their bounds! NOT the land owners. I have not ruined the access, unscrupulous climbers with poor ethics and no respect has ruined it! you seem to be very confused on what has happened here!

as i have stated time and time again, IF permission was gained BEFORE we would not be having this trouble!

one last thing....why not post your name ole RH? i feel we already know you but you continue to hide behind this moniker....hiding something? something we should know about? got a hammer drill? been trespassing recently? cottekill is very close by.....you seem to be taking this awful personal.....some one step on your toes while you we illegally climbing on people's caves? feel personally wronged cause now you got caught out, breaking the law?

there has been no access issues at the other caves BECAUSE THE LAND OWNERS DO NOT KNOW "YOU" HAVE BEEN TRESPASSING ON THEIR LAND! if they knew, climbing would have ceased long ago.

oh! and i have not been threatening any one! BUT i have been enlightening many many people along my way. i would like to add that people like our good friend RH have been adding plenty of fuel for me to push forward on my endeavor! you can all thank him for keeping this topic so close to my heart with some much energy......a better approach may have been something along the lines of how julie put it. a calm well thought out sympathetic approach would have been a much better road to travel down.....but apparently RH knows everything about conversation skills and getting what he wants.
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#41604 - 11/13/08 06:29 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Eddie]
The Lisa Online   content
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Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 411
Loc: Da Bronx
I have to throw in my 2 cents and support Eddie. I have never met him - all I know is he is a landowner who has the right to control access to his land, not to mention what is done to it.
I could not imagine ever being the sort of person who would assume I had the right to walk in and start defacing someone's property.
There isn't plenty of rock in the area to climb on - legally - already?

As an aside, I think it would be really really cool to own a cave \:\)
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#41607 - 11/13/08 07:08 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: The Lisa]
Eddie Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1446
Loc: NP. NY
thanks lisa.

i would also like to thank all the people who understand and support me.

thanks for reminding me that not all climbers are irresponsible.
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#41626 - 11/13/08 09:16 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Eddie]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2359
Loc: Boston
 Originally Posted By: Eddie
i have posted signs many many times, year after year. seems that they all grow feet and walk away. it is difficult to keep up with it i can assure you. i have added new fresh signs....yet again. BUT FWIW even if there are no signs does not insinuate passage is okay.



Yup, I know exactly how that works! My signs would first get shot, then get ripped down. Only thing that slowed down the ATVers that like to tear through my property was me putting big brush piles, and then fences, where they liked to head up onto my property from the road.

Simply put - some people have zero respect. Prosecute to the full extent of the law, is my suggestion.

By the way, I've done first ascents on private land (that wasn't my own). I asked permission in advance. I continued to go there and do low-impact climbing (no permanent hardware, only a few rap slings well camouflaged in trees), and maintained good contact with the landowners. Unfortunately the situation changed, and the landowners asked me not to use the cliff anymore. That was that, and I haven't been back.

So, Eddie, don't think that all climbers are asses. Because you know that's not true.

GO

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#41644 - 11/13/08 10:10 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: GOclimb]
learningtolead Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 981
Loc: a wanna be kerhonkson-er
I clearly stated in my post that it was wrong of the person or persons to bolt Eddie's cave. I don't think anyone on this post has said otherwise. Yet he continues to cast aspersions at climbers in general and to reiterate that he wants to punish the whole group. That is what makes me think he is crossing a line.

Eddie, you have every right to be pissed and to actively keep people off your land. No problems there. But to also actively agitate against climbers and make blanket statements about wrong doing, lack of ethics, and liability is going too far, in my opinion. I think you're seriously overreacting. If you already know who did it, go kick their asses, by all means or keep trying to find out who did it. But most of us here have never knowingly climbed on private land or placed a bolt in their lives. I know I haven't. So going around telling neighbors and other community members that climbers are bad people who will deface land and sue you is offensive to me. I'm shocked that you've gotten the support for all of your outlandish comments that you have gotten here.

Yes, you were wronged, but no that doesn't justify you blowing your top at anyone and everyone. And honestly, if you look at all the bad things that happen to people every day, even the wrong that was done to you is minor in the scheme of things.

And oh the irony that you're now reformed in your respect for landowner rights. Does that reform happen to have coincided with the end of your active climbing career??

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#41649 - 11/13/08 11:08 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: learningtolead]
LarE Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 45
Just for the record, I'm with you 100% Eddie. As far as the response from the climbing community, I'm not convinced that there is such a thing anymore. I find this all very depressing.

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#41651 - 11/13/08 11:55 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: LarE]
empicard Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2954
Loc: LI, NY
LtL, how is stopping people from tresspassing punishing the whole group?
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#41652 - 11/14/08 12:18 AM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: empicard]
Eddie Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1446
Loc: NP. NY
LTL,

you are way off base. you seem to be blind to what has happened. we have never seen eye to eye and it is again showing.

as far as i am concerned going to tell my neighbors MY experience is just that, my experience. they can make their decisions from there. are you afraid of what they think? you seem to be miss directing your feelings. you should be admonishing the climbers that have brought us to this point.
that is where you have gone astray....you like RH are after the wrong guy! you should be telling the offending climbers not me.

interesting you say you have NOT knowingly climbed on private land......it is ALL private land unless it says it is public! all public land is posted so....if it is not posted IT IS PRIVATE! now you are more informed!

i am not going to kick any ones ass....not my style....better to have the state police do my dirty work for me....that is what they are paid for.

now you seem to think this is no big deal. why not put yourself in my shoes? you are a a land owner. would you appreciate if i showed up at your place and cut a tree or two down? would you be pissed then? how about i let myself in your house and spray paint the wall with some of my art? would you prefer i use the main room or the bedroom? same idea! you would not appreciate any of these things....but somehow you seem top be a bit blinded by what actually happened.

funny thing is YOU are the only member that does not seem to agree other than faceless newbies who just arrived! funny you question the support i have! that should tell you something! that should tell you i am on to something, i may be right and your ideas are far far off base! you seem to be spoiling for a confrontation! i suggest you really think about what you are saying....seems to me that you are in the minority here.....

i have been getting some very generous and helpful phone calls from concerned climbers from the area....they too seem to be with me on this one! thanks for the calls and thanks for all the offers to help! it makes me happy to see there are some good responsible climbers still around. thanks for coming out to remind me you still exist!


Edited by Eddie (11/14/08 12:29 AM)
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#41672 - 11/14/08 04:23 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Eddie]
sknowlton Offline
newbie

Registered: 01/15/07
Posts: 29
Loc: Nyack NY
Eddie:

While not a regular poster here, I am a regular "lurker" and I have been climbing in the Gunks for 30 years. I'm very sorry for your situation and I'm hopeful that the gunks climbing community---yes there IS one---can somehow make it up to you and with luck, help prevent just this sort of vandalism and trespass from happening to you and other landowners again. I fully understand your anger and I hope it will be eventually tempered by both time and the actions of resposible climbers who respect others' property rights.

Access is precious, and as you and others have stated, climbing is a privilege and not a right. Privileges are earned and lost by actions taken in relation to those privileges sought. I hope you can see beyond the thoughtless actions of a few and recognize that there are many of us here---both older and newer climbers---who recognize that it is msotly because of willing landowners like the Preserve, your neighbors and hopefully you again that we are able to experience the unique environment of our home crag.

All the best to you Eddie.
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#41674 - 11/14/08 04:35 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: learningtolead]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
Ltl wrote:

 Quote:
most of us here have never knowingly climbed on private land


 Quote:
And oh the irony that you're now reformed in your respect for landowner rights. Does that reform happen to have coincided with the end of your active climbing career??

a bit of ground truthing....

Molly, I find it additionally ironic that when faced with the prospect, some years ago, of privately owned parts of The Near Trapps being closed you said something to the effect of "you're going to have to arrest me or assault me" to keep me off private land in The Nears.

I guess we all change and grow as time goes on....

hope you are well


Edited by Kent (11/14/08 04:36 PM)

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#41677 - 11/14/08 04:41 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Eddie]
RockHarder Offline
stranger

Registered: 11/12/08
Posts: 10
Eddie this is going to be my last message in this argument. The whole thing is starting to become very immature and I willingly take partial responsibility for that. I should have never told you to "shut your fat blowhole". I guess I was just fired up, and it certainly helps to be a ghost writer sitting behind a screen, as we all know here. I want to make it clear that I don't know you and most certainly was not one of the climbers you busted at the cave. After reading your last borderline psychotic rant Ive become scared that you will accuse some unfortunate soul of being Rockhard off screen, and that doesn't settle well with me. With that said I must admit that based off of the current threads relating to property rights, I cant help but to notice that owning property corrupts the soul. I understand why you are so upset. If someone came into my back yard and bolted my property I would be plenty pissed off. What I would have done differently though was sat back for a couple days and really thought hard about how I was going to handle the situation. You failed to do this and because of your reactionary course of action have worsened the divide between climbers and private property owners in the area. Good luck.

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#41679 - 11/14/08 05:17 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Kent]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
 Originally Posted By: Kent
a bit of ground truthing....

Molly, I find it additionally ironic that when faced with the prospect, some years ago, of privately owned parts of The Near Trapps being closed you said something to the effect of "you're going to have to arrest me or assault me" to keep me off private land in The Nears.


Kent, since you continue to want to air out smelly laundry from 3-5 years ago, I'll ground truth your ground truthing. You opened the discussion that resulted in Molly's statement with threats. And I am referring to direct threats, not implied threats. That didn't sit will with a lot of us, it was certainly responsible for polarizing the entire discussion, and it may have temporarily if not permanently alienated people who may have otherwise been inclined to support you. Since you have been formally appointed as the representative for some landowner(s), it would behoove you to consider your negotiating tactics very carefully. Wish you all the best of luck.

Edited to add: if indeed any negotiations are even seriously being considered.


Edited by pedestrian (11/14/08 05:20 PM)

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#41680 - 11/14/08 05:25 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: pedestrian]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
As I stated over and over back then my intent, however imperfectly communicated, was to make the community aware of possible cliff closures in response to the zoning law. If you'll recall, back then I made repeated efforts to meet with the GCC privately prior to my public entreaties here. My efforts to communicate with the GCC were unrequited.

Landowners don't need to negotiate the closure of private land Nate. That's part of the problem here. Saying landowners need to negotiate, in any way, with climbers about access is to imply that climbers have some kind of right to private property.

If someone, anyone, believes that climbers have a right to private property, please speak up.

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#41686 - 11/14/08 06:36 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Kent]
alicex4 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/05/00
Posts: 3400
That's just the point Kent, I think some of these climbers DO believe they have a right to climb where they choose. It is unfortunate that you and Eddie are being treated as the party that has erred here. Stick to your principles, the whining here is indicative of their inferior position in the argument; since they can't trump your claim of private property rights they are denegrating your delivery methods. A cheap shot at best, IMO.

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#41695 - 11/14/08 07:08 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Kent]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
 Originally Posted By: Kent
Landowners don't need to negotiate the closure of private land Nate. That's part of the problem here. Saying landowners need to negotiate, in any way, with climbers about access is to imply that climbers have some kind of right to private property.


Then why do you keep raising the possibility of having meetings? Just more disingenuous bs from you Kent. You are wasting everybody's time and bandwidth.

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#41696 - 11/14/08 07:11 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: pedestrian]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
I am unclear on this as well: if climbing access is off the table, and the purpose of the meeting is to brow-beat Chris, why would anyone participate, and why would you then hold that against them?

I'd love to see a meeting, but it needs open minds on both sides of the table.

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#41698 - 11/14/08 07:30 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Julie]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
Hardly disengenous bs.

Climbers may or may not have access to private property. Regardless, how they conduct themselves will have a direct effect on whether or not they have access in the future.

These are not my ideas. They are from the Access Fund webiste and as a landowner they make a lot of sense to me.

The site does not say "if the landowner will not leave access on the table as an option, then there is no point in meeting with them", or anything to that effect.


Edited by Kent (11/14/08 08:06 PM)

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#41699 - 11/14/08 07:39 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Kent]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
Ok, what's the purpose of a meeting? I'm sure at this point the purpose of any meeting, from the landowner's perspective, is merely to raise awareness about the level of transgressions that are being committed by trespassers... you're doing a fine job of that on gunksdot so there's no need for a meeting.

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#41700 - 11/14/08 07:40 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: pedestrian]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
Nate, did you go and read the Access Fund website? It will answer your questions better than I can.

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#41701 - 11/14/08 07:46 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Kent]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: Kent
The (AF) site does not say "if the landowner will not leave access on the table as an option, then there is no point in meeting with them", or anything to that effect.

Fer pete's sake, Kent, this is just common sense.

If you want a meeting for everyone to express the appropriate amount of respect to you, without offering anything in return - well, you might be waiting a while for those RSVPs.

I really doubt the AF, or anyone at all, sets up or attends meetings where there is nothing to negotiate.

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#41702 - 11/14/08 07:47 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Julie]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
Julie, again, read the Access Fund website.

I'm sure if you have a better idea of how to interact with landowners they'd love to hear about it.


Edited by Kent (11/14/08 07:48 PM)

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#41703 - 11/14/08 07:54 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Kent]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
Kent, that webpage (http://www.accessfund.org/resources/resprivate.php#S2) is merely a general outline, a recipe of sorts, which says nothing about the specific situation in the Gunks or any specific landowners' concerns. And unfortunately we've reached the point with that recipe where some ingredients are going to have to be substituted. Recipe (webpage) helpfully says: "address landowners' concerns." Unfortunately, their CONCERN seems to be that they HATE US, and there's nothing we can DO about it. Now are you done making your point?

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#41704 - 11/14/08 07:57 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: pedestrian]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
That may be your interpretation of the website but I don't think it's very accurate.

As I said with Julie, if you think you have a better bread box than the access fund, when it comes to interacting with landowners, I'm sure they'd love to hear about it.

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#41705 - 11/14/08 07:59 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Kent]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
 Quote:
That may be your interpretation of the website but I don't think it's very accurate.


Ok Kent. Enlighten us.

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#41706 - 11/14/08 08:04 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: pedestrian]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
Unless a more substantive line of inquiry comes up, I'm going to let it rest...... for now.

One last thing, again from The Access Fund website;

In response to the question of "why have a meeting if access isn't on the table"?

"You may not get the result you want in the first meeting, but you have taken the first step to building a relationship with that person."


Edited by Kent (11/14/08 08:11 PM)

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#41709 - 11/14/08 08:08 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Kent]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
I'm out of ideas of how to please you, Kent. As is anyone else, I'd think.

I've tried hard to ask you on what grounds we as climbers could negotiate, but you've repeatedly said there are no grounds. As with any situation in life, there comes a time at which futile efforts are clearly not worth repeating.

So I'm not sure what your whole point has been, publicly, besides taunting Chris (which, as I've said, I'm just not interested in).

Again, I'd love to hear what climbers can do to gain access - but that HAS to come from you. If all you can say is "respect ... but no access" - then why are you posting endlessly?

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#41714 - 11/14/08 08:22 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Julie]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
Julie, I keep hoping, against all odds, that Chris will embrace and articulate, in his own words, the ideas on the Access Fund website. I seem to be hoping in vain.

There seem to be two camps here.

Camp One
Respect for property rights, period. Then you might have access. This is the position of landowners, seemingly The Access Fund, and many climbers.

Camp Two
No access then no respect. This is my interpretation of the position of many climbers, including Chris M.

I'm not trying to torture Chris M. but as the elected Chairman of the only organization advocating for recreationists, his words carry weight, good or bad. If he is in Camp Two, that's bad.

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#41718 - 11/14/08 08:35 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Kent]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
I'm sure the GCC no longer has chairpersons or elected officers, either... since they no longer have members.

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#41722 - 11/14/08 09:05 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: pedestrian]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Kent, I feel i have respected those landowners along the ridge by staying off any private land that was posted as such, as I would not otherwise know what is off limits. I expect that is true for at least 99% of the gunks climbers and have no knowledge of any trespass in the area of the Bayards. I'm not sure what else you would expect from the typical climber, since most of us have no idea who you are or where your property is.

There is an obvious personal conflict that has taken place and so I would suggest that Chris (whom I have not met) should not be personally involved in any future communications with you about this topic. I hope that you would be more forthcoming about requests from several of us for plain talk about your current beef, but you do not seem inclined to do so. There is not a single one of us who do not cherish the gunks and our experiences there. You are fortunate enough to live there and I hope you continue to do so happily.

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#41726 - 11/14/08 09:24 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Kent]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: Kent
There seem to be two camps here.

Camp One
Respect for property rights, period. Then you might have access. This is the position of landowners, seemingly The Access Fund, and many climbers.

Camp Two
No access then no respect. This is my interpretation of the position of many climbers, including Chris M.


You have explicity disallowed the possibility of Camp One for anyone. I've asked you again and again, what specifically you want from climbers - independently of Chris - and you have only said the very vague "respect". Yet you give us no path or possibility to join Camp One, and insist that we are Camp Two. Our hands are tied, by you, are they not?

I am beginning to think you just want to flagellate Chris.

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#41735 - 11/14/08 10:15 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Julie]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
A spanking, a spanking!

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#41742 - 11/14/08 11:27 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: pedestrian]
Tai Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 290
Loc: Middle of nowhere: South Salem...
 Originally Posted By: pedestrian
A spanking, a spanking!


And then, the oral secks...

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#41743 - 11/14/08 11:29 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: pedestrian]
AOR Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/27/04
Posts: 392
Kent...as someone who would never, ever (knowingly) trespass on private property to access a climbing area, please let me respectfully ask you this;

As you have previously stated "access denied" under any circumstances, why do you continue to banter and argue with posters on gunksdotcom obviously knowing you are going to receive a plethora of heated replies?

Your mind has obviously been made up, so why not let the issue(s) die and not post anymore?

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#41763 - 11/16/08 11:17 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Julie]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
From Julie:

 Quote:
You have explicity disallowed the possibility of Camp One for anyone.

Being in Camp One is like being a Vulgarian. If you think you are a Vulgarian, you are. If you think you are in Camp One, then you are. Go ask Alice (there is no need, however, to wait until she is ten feet tall).

That you are in Camp One does not however mean you will have access.

 Quote:
I am beginning to think you just want to flagellate Chris.

I'm not trying to flagellate Chris, but if he is going to be the Chairman of the only organization formally representing recreationists on the ridge, it's reasonable to hold him accountable for his words.



Edited by Kent (11/16/08 11:43 PM)
Edit Reason: Jefferson Starship

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#41764 - 11/16/08 11:25 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: AOR]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
From AOR:
 Quote:
Your mind has obviously been made up, so why not let the issue(s) die and not post anymore?

A great injustice has been done to ridge landowners like the Wustraus, Charlie Bales, Pauline Alexander, Charlie & Mary Beth Majestic, and others. Anything I can do to draw attention to that injustice I will do.

And as someone who has stated that you would never, ever (knowingly) trespass on private property, you are welcome on my land anytime. There isn't a lot of climbing on my land, but you are welcome to it. If you decide to take me up on it, please be in touch with me beforehand. Thanks.

It was very brisk on top of the ridge today.

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#41786 - 11/18/08 03:16 AM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Kent]
acdnyc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 208
Loc: NYC/Kerhonkson

Man, you miss a lot when your screen on your old laptop dies.

Back to the original topic, I'm with Eddie on this one and his reaction. It's the "bad apple" who spoils it for everyone else and I've seen and read about it too many times. I've lost good fishing holes over the years because of trash being left behind, climbing areas because people refuse to obey posted signs(Skytop), etc. I just think people who act at that level, to a degree, are sociopaths. Just a mild form but definitely in that brain dysfunction. I think reading the posts of some responses was a good experiment in establishing a new level of dysfunction. To not sympathize with Eddie is a good indication that the poster has an inability to remove ones self from there own person and look at the issue from an open mind.

I have found that climbing has a group of people that tend to lean towards a very self centered viewpoint that what they want is what matters and everyone else is wrong or inferior for thinking different.

As a really recent landowner in the Gunks area I am having my own problems with trespassers, these are carrying guns. I have to wear bright cloths and I don't let my dog stray to far from our house for fear of her being shot. Luckily, I have neighbors who keep an eye on it and let me know if anyone has been seen on my land. I even made contact once but they backed down our driveway after I waved to them. I found out who it was and it was a local hunter/carpenter.

To bad we live in a world with little or not respect for others. I hope that anyone who reads these posts will think the next time before they take an action that may be wrong. I hike all the hills and ridges in the area and I'm on my way to hiking every foot of trail on the ridge, some unmarked deer trails, those are the best, and I'm amazed at all the climbable areas. Every time I see a crag I wish we could climb it but I know we won't because they are closed. By what has happened in recent weeks means that they will most likely stay closed for the near future.

So, Eddie, good luck in keeping people off your land and I hope that all your neighbors follow your example and close their caves off. I would hate to hear some distant neighbor of mine lost their house or land from a lawsuit. Maybe we will have a beer together again sometime, until then, good luck.
_________________________
jugs or mugs

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#41788 - 11/18/08 06:45 AM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: acdnyc]
calamity Offline
stranger

Registered: 05/21/08
Posts: 18
It's a TERRIBLE shame that citizens in the United States don't have access laws like those of Britain, and Scotland, which normally serve as the model for U.S. concepts of law.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/legislation/scotland/acts2003/asp_20030002_en_2#pt1-ch1-l1g1

Maybe it has to do with slavery.

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#41791 - 11/18/08 11:12 AM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: calamity]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5968
Loc: 212 land
 Originally Posted By: calamity
It's a TERRIBLE shame that citizens in the United States don't have access laws like those of Britain, and Scotland, which normally serve as the model for U.S. concepts of law.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/legislation/scotland/acts2003/asp_20030002_en_2#pt1-ch1-l1g1

Maybe it has to do with slavery.
Hah! American property owners are happy that such UK laws don't apply here. Your wish reminds one of the song lyric:

As I was walkin' - I saw a sign there
And that sign said - no tress passin'
But on the other side .... it didn't say nothin!
Now that side was made for you and me!
_________________________

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#41793 - 11/18/08 01:41 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: calamity]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
 Quote:
It's a TERRIBLE shame that citizens in the United States don't have access laws like those of Britain, and Scotland, which normally serve as the model for U.S. concepts of law.

Clam,

For a long time ridge landowners did in fact allow pretty much unfettered access to their land. It was live and let live on the ridge. It was only when it became live and let the landowners die that access became more restricted.

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#41794 - 11/18/08 01:52 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: oenophore]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
thanks Oeno for the reminder

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yuc4BI5NWU&feature=related

THIS LAND IS YOUR LAND
words and music by Woody Guthrie

Chorus:
This land is your land, this land is my land
From California, to the New York Island
From the redwood forest, to the gulf stream waters
This land was made for you and me

As I was walking a ribbon of highway
I saw above me an endless skyway
I saw below me a golden valley
This land was made for you and me

Chorus

I've roamed and rambled and I've followed my footsteps
To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts
And all around me a voice was sounding
This land was made for you and me

Chorus

The sun comes shining as I was strolling
The wheat fields waving and the dust clouds rolling
The fog was lifting a voice come chanting
This land was made for you and me

Chorus

As I was walkin' - I saw a sign there
And that sign said - no tress passin'
But on the other side .... it didn't say nothin!
Now that side was made for you and me!

Chorus

In the squares of the city - In the shadow of the steeple
Near the relief office - I see my people
And some are grumblin' and some are wonderin'
If this land's still made for you and me.
_________________________
John Okner Photography

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#41796 - 11/18/08 02:38 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: talus]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
"I would hate to hear some distant neighbor of mine lost their house or land from a lawsuit."

NYS has enacted law to protect landowners from lawsuit related to recreational injury or death, as long as they have not modified their property to encourage such activities. You should not have any worries unless you deside that a Via Ferrata would be a cool way to pick up extra cash.

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#41797 - 11/18/08 03:10 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: chip]
Daniel Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/23/01
Posts: 1515
 Originally Posted By: chip
NYS has enacted law to protect landowners from lawsuit related to recreational injury or death, as long as they have not modified their property to encourage such activities.


Is that a recent development? I though I read in the past few years (though I couldn't find it online) a New York Times article on how New York law (at least back then) specifically excluded swimming and climbing from allowed activities, which had led some NY property owners to close swimming areas to which they had previously allowed access.

And if the law included climbing and absolved property owners from liability, then would the Mohonk Mountain House be citing insurance issues as a reason for closing Skytop to the pubic?

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#41798 - 11/18/08 03:35 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Daniel]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
I have not personally read the law but have been told that climbing was included by a climber friend who runs one of the largest parks and recreation departments in the state.

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#41799 - 11/18/08 03:40 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: chip]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
 Quote:
And if the law included climbing and absolved property owners from liability, then would the Mohonk Mountain House be citing insurance issues as a reason for closing Skytop to the pubic?


That argument went out the window as soon as they started allowing guided parties scheduled through the MMH...
_________________________
...anethum graveolens cucumis sativus!

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#41800 - 11/18/08 03:46 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: chip]
mummert Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/16/99
Posts: 96
Loc: Danbury, CT, USA
 Quote:
NYS has enacted law to protect landowners from lawsuit related to recreational injury or death, as long as they have not modified their property to encourage such activities. You should not have any worries unless you deside that a Via Ferrata would be a cool way to pick up extra cash.


Recreational access laws increase the likelihood that a liability lawsuit will fail in court. However, they don't prevent suits from being filed, nor the expense of having to defend against them.

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#41801 - 11/18/08 05:09 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: mummert]
retr2327 Offline
member

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 108
 Originally Posted By: mummert
 Quote:
NYS has enacted law to protect landowners from lawsuit related to recreational injury or death, as long as they have not modified their property to encourage such activities. You should not have any worries unless you deside that a Via Ferrata would be a cool way to pick up extra cash.


Recreational access laws increase the likelihood that a liability lawsuit will fail in court. However, they don't prevent suits from being filed, nor the expense of having to defend against them.


Todd makes the key point, which is that winning a lawsuit is no substitute for not facing one in the first instance. But there's worse news beyond that: the law in question (N.Y. General Obligations Law section 9-103, for those who care) almost certainly would not apply anyway, leaving the owner without such a defense.

1) First, it only applies to specifically listed activities, and climbing is not one of them; 2) Second, with respect to the Preserve, Mohonk, etc., it does not apply if a fee has been charged for access. The latter would not apply to private homeowners, of course, but the first reason almost certainly would.

For those who really, really care, the list of activities is "hunting, fishing, organized gleaning ... canoeing, boating, trapping, hiking, cross-country skiing, and tobogganing, sledding, speleological activities, horseback riding, bicycle riding, hang gliding, motorized vehicle operation for recreational purposes, snowmobile operation, cutting or gathering of wood for non-commercial purposes or training of dogs."

Organized gleaning, anyone?

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#41802 - 11/18/08 05:21 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: retr2327]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Sounds to me like the exclusion of climbing is an obvious, deliberate act on the part of the legislators, but hopefully I'm wrong. I would suggest that a campaign to ammend this would be in the best interests of land owners and climbers alike and that those of you in NYS should do some writing.

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#41803 - 11/18/08 05:27 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Dillbag]
Daniel Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/23/01
Posts: 1515
 Originally Posted By: Dillbag
 Quote:
And if the law included climbing and absolved property owners from liability, then would the Mohonk Mountain House be citing insurance issues as a reason for closing Skytop to the pubic?


That argument went out the window as soon as they started allowing guided parties scheduled through the MMH...


I asked a guide about this, and MMH's insurance argument is still valid (whether or not it's the actual reason). When climbing with a guide, the client is on the guide company's insurance policy, so the MMH insurer is off the hook.

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#41804 - 11/18/08 05:34 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: retr2327]
Timbo Offline
addict

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 694
Loc: Delaware
 Originally Posted By: retr2327

For those who really, really care, the list of activities is "hunting, fishing, organized gleaning ... canoeing, boating, trapping, hiking, cross-country skiing, and tobogganing, sledding, speleological activities, horseback riding, bicycle riding, hang gliding, motorized vehicle operation for recreational purposes, snowmobile operation, cutting or gathering of wood for non-commercial purposes or training of dogs."

Organized gleaning, anyone?


Here's a link for gleaning.

http://www.healthguidance.org/entry/6280/1/Gleaning-Organized-Activity.html

Seems it has to do with reusing food products and I think it is more to protect against suits from food related illnesses than any recreation. Many companies routinely throw away food products that could be used in homeless shelters for fear of lawsuits. Odd it was included in this legislation.

Also odd that the activities inlcude caving, but exclude climbing. That's most likely due to a fairly active and organized caving community headed by the National Speleological Society and it's local NY chapters. Looks like the Access fund and climbers missed the boat on this one.

TS
_________________________

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#41805 - 11/18/08 05:35 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: chip]
Daniel Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/23/01
Posts: 1515
 Originally Posted By: chip
Sounds to me like the exclusion of climbing is an obvious, deliberate act on the part of the legislators, but hopefully I'm wrong.


Again, going by my recollection of the article, there have been attempts to get the legislature to add swimming (and perhaps climbing) to the list but it was blocked by trial lawyer groups. I suspect their argument that those activities needed to be excluded for public safety reasons. Others will say that they're looking out for their own business.

I have nothing against trial lawyers per se--I'm a nonpracticing lawyer and believe trial lawyers serve an essential societal function--but I think they're on the wrong side on this one.

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#41806 - 11/18/08 05:49 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: chip]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
 Originally Posted By: chip
NYS has enacted law to protect landowners from lawsuit related to recreational injury or death, as long as they have not modified their property to encourage such activities. You should not have any worries unless you deside that a Via Ferrata would be a cool way to pick up extra cash.


Sounds as if Eddie has good reason to be upset that someone modified his property to encourage climbing!

As many have noted, MMH guides have their own insurance.
I'm pretty sure insurance is not the only reason the public is not allowed to climb there. Look what they charge just to hike!

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#41811 - 11/18/08 07:16 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Daniel]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
 Originally Posted By: Daniel
 Originally Posted By: Dillbag
 Quote:
And if the law included climbing and absolved property owners from liability, then would the Mohonk Mountain House be citing insurance issues as a reason for closing Skytop to the pubic?


That argument went out the window as soon as they started allowing guided parties scheduled through the MMH...


I asked a guide about this, and MMH's insurance argument is still valid (whether or not it's the actual reason). When climbing with a guide, the client is on the guide company's insurance policy, so the MMH insurer is off the hook.

It was never about insurance - it was always that a majority of the MMH Board didn't want climbing. Long before there was MMH sanctioned guided climbing at Skytop, the Access Fund had worked out a proposal that provided cheap insurance and removed MMH from liability (basically the AF would take over the insurance) - there was some aspect about the deal other than insurance that the MMH balked at and thus rejected the proposal.
_________________________
- Marc

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#41812 - 11/18/08 07:25 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: MarcC]
Daniel Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/23/01
Posts: 1515
 Originally Posted By: MarcC
It was never about insurance - it was always that a majority of the MMH Board didn't want climbing.


Just to clarify: I didn't mean to imply that insurance was the real or only reason for the ban at Skytop. I was just pointing out that there were liability issues under New York State law and that having guided climbing obviated that concern as far as MMH's insurance carrier goes. Whether the MMH Board just doesn't want general climbing at Skytop is another issue.

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#41814 - 11/18/08 07:31 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: MarcC]
Dizzy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 2177
Loc: Berkshires, MA and Ahlington, ...
Through all these posts no one has asked the obvious question....where did EDDIE get money to buy land?

Dizz
_________________________
I can handle reality in small doses, but as a lifestyle it's way too confining
-Lily Tomlin

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#41815 - 11/18/08 07:37 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Daniel]
tls Offline
journeyman

Registered: 07/24/00
Posts: 54
 Quote:
Again, going by my recollection of the article, there have been attempts to get the legislature to add swimming (and perhaps climbing) to the list but it was blocked by trial lawyer groups.


It shouldn't matter. I don't have the citation handy but the NYS Court of Appeals ruled many years ago that a cliff was an inherently obvious hazard -- that anyone climbing did so at his own risk. I believe the opinion actually had the phrase "like a flashing warning sign" in it. It's been posted here before but if nobody else has it handy I can try to find it again when I get home.

The Mountain House doesn't want their property overrun by climbers, and I assume they don't want the hassle of administering some kind of limited-access system. Better to let a guide service do it for them, I guess. They're well within their rights to ban climbing for whatever reason -- even one that might be so frustrating to climbers as "100 people with backpacks hiking up to Skytop will annoy the carriage-trade hotel guests" -- but the liability thing is and always has been an excuse.

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#41817 - 11/18/08 08:05 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: tls]
retr2327 Offline
member

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 108
"I don't have the citation handy but the NYS Court of Appeals ruled many years ago that a cliff was an inherently obvious hazard -- that anyone climbing did so at his own risk."

True enough. But this "inherently obvious hazard" defense is not as likely to get you out on a quick motion, since the injured climber may try to argue that some action/inaction by the landowner (e.g., failure to inspect and/or replace the piton, as the most obvious example, but hardly the only one) "increased" the risk beyond that which was obvious.

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#41818 - 11/18/08 08:16 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Eddie]
tls Offline
journeyman

Registered: 07/24/00
Posts: 54
 Quote:
interesting you say you have NOT knowingly climbed on private land......it is ALL private land unless it says it is public! all public land is posted so....if it is not posted IT IS PRIVATE! now you are more informed!


That is false, both in New York State specifically and under common law principles in general. Which does not excuse anyone being a richardhead and bolting Eddie's land, but maybe we could all stick to the facts and tone down the rhetoric a bit?

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#41820 - 11/18/08 09:00 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: tls]
Jim Lawyer Offline
member

Registered: 08/23/00
Posts: 157
Loc: Pompey, NY
Regarding the general obligations law (GOL):

Even for cases of hiking (or others listed in the statute), I've been told that the GOL may not be much help. It offers immunity to landowners who allow people to come on their land to, for example, hike, but there is a 1996 case that held the law did not apply where some kids walked through a field to get to a railroad tressle they were going to play on. So, perhaps GOL isn't the protection we think it is?

My understanding is that landowners are only responsible for man made or hidden defects that are not readily apparent. It would be difficult to argue that a huge cliff was not realily apparent. As such, I've been told by somebody at the Access Fund that no land owner in the country has ever lost a suit brought by a climber (or surviving family) claiming negligence of the land owner with respect to their cliff. So, it would seem the MMH has nothing to worry about. Of course, this doesn't protect them (or any land owner) from an expensive defense.

It seems that so many landowners these days are focused on liability. I wonder how much of this is just baseless fear? Perhaps an attorney with such experience can advise...

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#41821 - 11/18/08 09:16 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Dizzy]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
 Originally Posted By: Dizzy
Through all these posts no one has asked the obvious question....where did EDDIE get money to buy land?

Dizz


It's been in his family.

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#41904 - 11/22/08 11:59 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Mike Rawdon]
andrew Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 1816
Loc: Denver, CO
I am so glad I live in the west where most land is public unless otherwise posted. Land owners certainly can do whatever they please with their land, but it is unfortunate that land ownership is so often so used as an excuse to be a petty tyrant. An awful lot of private land, especially in the east, should never have been made private in the first place.
_________________________
This isn't an office. It's Hell with fluorescent lighting.

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#41905 - 11/23/08 02:29 AM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: andrew]
empicard Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2954
Loc: LI, NY
How is doing what one pleases with something they OWN being a petty tyrant?
_________________________
tOOthless

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

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#41907 - 11/23/08 02:52 AM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: empicard]
andrew Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 1816
Loc: Denver, CO
Like I said, I think there is way too much private property in the USA, particularly in the east. I don't consider owning large(say over an acre) parcels of land to be exactly like owning a car or a house - you can't make any more of it, some pieces of land are unique treasures that all people should be able to enjoy, and no one really can legally do whatever they please with their own land - you can't build permanent structures, dump toxic waste, start a mine, etc. just because you want to and own the land.

People are certainly legally entitled to cut off access to their own land, and i'm not advocating trespassing or land seizures, but I do think it is sad when people cut off recreational access just because they can. A petty tyrant owns the country he rules and is within his legal rights to rule as he pleases, but it doesn't make the situation ideal, morally right, or beneficial to anyone but himself. I have the same opinion about landowners cutting off access to land resources that are better shared with their fellow countrymen.

When I owned land with recreational value in Utah, I had no problem letting people use an old skid road on the property - it was a popular place for people to walk dogs. I could have cut off access, but I chose not to.
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#41911 - 11/23/08 04:51 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: andrew]
Tai Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 290
Loc: Middle of nowhere: South Salem...
Sorry, but how is letting people use an old skid road - that, I'm assuming, had been there when you bought the property - at all similar to having people willfully deface your property without your permission or even knowledge?

Would you have wanted someone - without your authorization - to come through and cut that "old skid road" through pristine wilderness?

T
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#41912 - 11/23/08 05:19 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Tai]
andrew Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 1816
Loc: Denver, CO
It isn't, and I didn't make that comparison. I never said anything at all about the bolts, and I wouldn't be happy about that either. I still wouldn't shut down access without a really compelling reason, and I wouldn't try to enlist neighbors in an anti-access jihad. I mentioned the skid road only to illustrate that I have owned property with recreational value before and allowed access, so I am not just spouting theoretical BS.

I don't like landowners closing recreational land period, and especially when it seems like a kneejerk reaction. I think it is especially hypocritical that people lambast the mountain house for closing skytop but give smaller landowners a free pass. I don't see any difference between the two.

Note that I am not advocating trespassing, making alterations without permission, or even ditching user fees - these are things i've never done(I have even purchased day passes for Eddie before so I didn't feel guilty climbing with him at the Gunks). I'm also not saying that landowners don't have the right to shut off access to their land. I am simply saying that I believe a landowner is a total asshole for shutting off recreational access to their land, especially in a place like the east that has a real scarcity of public lands.
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#41916 - 11/24/08 12:13 AM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: andrew]
Allenperry Offline
member

Registered: 02/11/03
Posts: 195
Loc: Reading, Pennsylvania
 Originally Posted By: andrew
(I have even purchased day passes for Eddie before so I didn't feel guilty climbing with him at the Gunks).


I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I have say, That is Funny!
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Perry

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#41917 - 11/24/08 02:21 AM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Allenperry]
Dizzy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 2177
Loc: Berkshires, MA and Ahlington, ...
So, I have a question. Assuming that Kent has purchased his land recently he must have had a title search performed. If this search did not reveal an easement, then how is one established? Can he assume that if an easement is to asserted, the clock starts once he took possession of the land?

I am but a lowly physical biochemist, but it seems to me that if the recent title search turned up no easements on his property then one doesn't exist.

Ta,
Dizz
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#41921 - 11/24/08 04:59 AM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Dizzy]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2468
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Dizz, an easement by prescription is something that is claimed by someone who has been using the land all along. It doesn't exist and cannot be found in the title documents until the claim is actually made. The legal right to make that claim does not occur until the use has been ongoing continuously for at least ten years.

A quick check turned up that in Oregon anyway, the supreme court there held that the clock does not reset upon new ownership if the activity under which the easement by prescription is claimed has already been going on.

I posted more speculation about these topics here. Beware, as a lowly mathematician, my knowledge of real estate law matches your lowly biochemical level.

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#41926 - 11/24/08 02:17 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: andrew]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
 Quote:
I mentioned the skid road only to illustrate that I have owned property with recreational value before and allowed access, so I am not just spouting theoretical BS.

Andrew, prior to the passage of the zoning law, which hurt ridge landowners badly, landowners allowed unfettered access to their land. It was always live and let live. As I've mentioned before what's taken place in the last few years amounts to live and let the landowners die.

 Quote:
I don't like landowners closing recreational land period, and especially when it seems like a kneejerk reaction.

It's been talked about for over three years now so it's not a knee jerk reaction.

 Quote:
I am simply saying that I believe a landowner is a total asshole for shutting off recreational access to their land.

That's it Andrew. That's absolutely the last straw. No offshore trips to the canyons for you when you come to town.

Seriously though, try walking a mile in our shoes. Landowners have lost, in many cases, hundreds of thousands of dollars in land value, each. What have climbers lost? Access to a few trails, a few climbs, and a few acres of land. There are hundreds of other miles of trails, hundreds of other climbs, and tens of thousands of other acres to go play on.

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#41927 - 11/24/08 02:43 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Kent]
pda Offline
addict

Registered: 08/30/01
Posts: 621
Loc: Bergen County NJ
Kent - The loss in land value has nothing to do with access to the climber trail, which I'm sure you're aware. You seem to want to link climbers to the zoning change when there is no link there. It is your fellow town citizens that have decided that. Not the climbers.

Eddy, on the other hand, was directly affected by certain climber actions, not by the town.

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#41930 - 11/24/08 03:27 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Kent]
andrew Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 1816
Loc: Denver, CO
No offshore trips? Damn! I really want to get back out for some big fish after getting sailfish on a fly rod a few months back in Guatemala.

Kent, I do feel for you with your situation. I just don't understand why you would punish someone like me that had absolutely nothing to do with your situation and no ability to change it. I feel bad for Eddie too - it sucks when people don't respect your property.

I just have a fundamental disagreement with how to handle this sort of problem. As a landowner, my philosophy is to work with recreational groups to give as much access as possible, if for no other reason than to help set an example for other landowners that have land I want access to. I am so grateful for generous landowners that give me access to climb, fish, hike, hunt, surf, etc. In return, I am a good steward of those lands and respect the owner's privacy. If asked, I do more - i've seen some really positive communities in the west where user groups have helped landowners repair fences, rehabilitate streams, clean up days, etc. The fly fishing community seems to do this much better than the climbing community - maybe there are lessons to be learned there.

I just ask that all landowners think back to how much they have benefited from access to private lands in the past, and to ask themselves if they can't help pay back that trust by granting access of their own. We could lose places like where Eddie and I went fishing in Utah(all private land) without that kind of generosity.
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#41931 - 11/24/08 03:31 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: pda]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Oh vomitous and prolonged thread, I stab you in your heart with my venomnous dagger, in the hope that you bleed profusely and die!!!!

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#41932 - 11/24/08 03:38 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: pda]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
pda......virtually everyone that climbs in The Nears is a Preserve member. The Preserve was intimately involved. When defending their involvement in the town planning and zoning processes they invoked representation of their many members. As I've pointed out before, prominent climbers serve on the boards of the Preserve, the FOS, the GCC. Prominent climbers spoke out in support of the law at public hearings. Climbers and other recreationists who voted for the pro-zoning town board knew full well what the board intended to do.


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#41933 - 11/24/08 03:39 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: RangerRob]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Long live the thread!

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#41935 - 11/24/08 03:58 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Kent]
pda Offline
addict

Registered: 08/30/01
Posts: 621
Loc: Bergen County NJ
Well Kent- those that pushed for the zoning law no doubt belong to many groups, and those groups no doubt have many members, but that does not make each and every member of those groups guilty by association.

Most climbers who are preserve members joined simply to gain access to the property; they are not weighing in on (nor do they have much say) in what the preserve is doing on various issues.

I think the climbers have become a scapegoat here, because it is easy for the landowners to harm them (through removing access) than to get at the preserve directly.

None of this has anything to do with Rosendale.

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#41936 - 11/24/08 04:05 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: pda]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
PDA- I recognize that there are many groups involved. The land closures apply to everyone. Not just climbers.

It's similar to Rosendale in that Eddie pretty much looked the other way regarding climbing access on his land, until someone bolted it. Ridge landowners in Gardiner have pretty much looked the other way regarding climbing access, until the community took hundreds of thousands of dollars in property value from them.

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#41939 - 11/24/08 04:25 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: andrew]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
Andrew, if you are coming to town next year, let me know and I'll try to hook you up with an offshore trip out of Westerly, RI, if you are interested. Expenses are shared. July, August, and September are, of course, best.

I too have been on many private properties recreating in the past. If those landowners were now in the position we ridge landowners are in, I'd show my appreciation by deferring to whatever the landowner felt they needed to do.

Ridge landowners in Gardiner have heretofore been exceedingly generous about access for recreationists. As well some landowners have donated money and/or made significant legacy commitments to the Preserve. For our generosity we've been thrown under the bus. Pretty much all generosity has now been rescinded to the degree possible.

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#41941 - 11/24/08 05:32 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Kent]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
 Originally Posted By: Kent
...until the community took hundreds of thousands of dollars in property value from them.

Please clarify this for us. Are you suggesting that talus slope and cliff face are worth hundreds of kilobucks in property value?
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#41942 - 11/24/08 06:13 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: MarcC]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
 Quote:
Are you suggesting that talus slope and cliff face are worth hundreds of kilobucks in property value?

No, but the slopes below the cliff face and talus slopes are (were) worth kilo bucks.


Edited by Kent (11/24/08 06:16 PM)

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#41943 - 11/24/08 09:07 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Kent]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
hundreds of thousands is an awfully big number, Kent. You should be prepared to justify it. Where I come from, an empty house lot is not worth that much.

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#41944 - 11/24/08 09:29 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: pedestrian]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
For one landowner on North Mountain Road with 25 acres, under the old law the owner could subdivide into five acre lots. That's five lots. Empty house lots in Gardiner range all over, but 150K per lot is a reasonable average. Five lots at 150K is 750K. The new law leaves probably just one buildable lot. Even if that one lot goes for 200K that still yields a 550K loss. Even if the market has now tanked by 30%, it's still a $385K loss due to the zoning law.

That's one example. Different properties are affected in different ways and to varying degrees.


Edited by Kent (11/24/08 09:49 PM)

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#41946 - 11/24/08 10:25 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Kent]
tradjunkie Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 364
Kent,
If said 25 acre property were subdividable at such a profit, why wasn't it done before the law changed? If the landowner didn't subdivide it, that would indicate, on the face of it, that either it wasn't profitable to do so, or that the landowner preferred to own that land anyway and was indifferent to any value, or loss of value, that might be ascribed to subdividing that land or not.

Also, if you're talking creating a subdivided lot on a sloping talus field, that sounds like a construction minefield to my uneducated mind. Wouldn't such a lot have far less value than average given the difficulty of building on that terrain?

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#41947 - 11/24/08 10:35 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: tradjunkie]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
It lives on!

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#41948 - 11/24/08 11:14 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: tradjunkie]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
 Quote:
If said 25 acre property were subdividable at such a profit, why wasn't it done before the law changed? If the landowner didn't subdivide it, that would indicate, on the face of it, that either it wasn't profitable to do so, or that the landowner preferred to own that land anyway and was indifferent to any value, or loss of value, that might be ascribed to subdividing that land or not.

Every landowner is different as is every lot. This landowner's plan was to keep the land and sell it when he needed it for his retirement.

 Quote:
Also, if you're talking creating a subdivided lot on a sloping talus field, that sounds like a construction minefield to my uneducated mind. Wouldn't such a lot have far less value than average given the difficulty of building on that terrain?

The particular lot I am referring to has no talus on it and it doesn't slope very much either. It's very buildable.

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#41949 - 11/24/08 11:49 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: tradjunkie]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2359
Loc: Boston
 Originally Posted By: tradjunkie
Kent,
If said 25 acre property were subdividable at such a profit, why wasn't it done before the law changed? If the landowner didn't subdivide it, that would indicate, on the face of it, that either it wasn't profitable to do so, or that the landowner preferred to own that land anyway and was indifferent to any value, or loss of value, that might be ascribed to subdividing that land or not.


What a ridiculous argument. If I'd rather save my money than spend it, should someone else be able to make the argument that "he's not using it, so he clearly doesn't want it?"

GO

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#42017 - 11/27/08 03:15 AM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: GOclimb]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Christ...I guess I have to be blunt and just say it. Die thread....DIE!!!!

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#42024 - 11/27/08 06:18 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: RangerRob]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
 Originally Posted By: RangerRob
Christ...I guess I have to be blunt and just say it. Die thread....DIE!!!!

If you're that aggravated by the thread, why do you keep posting to it? No one is forcing you to read or reply here. I really don't see the point of these seagull posts. (Meaning, fly in, leave a pile of crap, and fly away.)
_________________________
- Marc

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#42959 - 02/04/09 01:01 AM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: MarcC]
crackers Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3424
Loc: pdx
shoot, i missed all the fun...eddie, did you shoot anybody?

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#42961 - 02/04/09 01:45 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: crackers]
phil Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/12/01
Posts: 2627
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Rosendale has caves? ;\)

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#62023 - 12/19/11 04:06 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Eddie]
Eddie Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1446
Loc: NP. NY
Originally Posted By: Eddie

to make matters worse one line is bolted through a VERY VERY unstable formation! So we also have a stupid bolter who bolted a SUPER dangerous line!



hello again. good news, the climbers respected my wishes from what i could tell. thank you.

but as an update the climbing route i was talking about did in fact fall to the earth. as i noted above it was a really shitty place for an anchor. i am not sure when the rock broke off, as i do not go in there often, but it has fallen.

i am glad no one was injured. but for those who think i am crazy. and those that know i am crazy crazy. please note i was right in it being a very dangerous place to put an anchor.

photo.net photos here. (click teh images to make em bigger)


eddie


Edited by Eddie (12/19/11 04:07 PM)
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#62038 - 12/20/11 03:59 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: pda]
Lucander Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 225
Loc: Stone Ridge, NY
I wish I owned land nice enough for recreational users to want to visit....

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#62042 - 12/21/11 12:07 AM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Lucander]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5968
Loc: 212 land
Originally Posted By: Lucander
I wish I owned land nice enough for recreational users to want to visit....


"Want to visit." Would you welcome any and all visitors?
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#62044 - 12/21/11 03:02 AM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: oenophore]
Lucander Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 225
Loc: Stone Ridge, NY
No Rv's, boom boxes, atv's, or slackliners.

Guess it's a moot point, no one's coming to the flats of Stone Rigge any time soon.

DL

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#62045 - 12/21/11 02:54 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Lucander]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
If you build it, they will come

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