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#41562 - 11/13/08 12:54 PM Why should private landowners allow access?
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
From the Access Fund website...
 Quote:
It is important to remember that private landowners really have no incentive to allow the general public to recreate on their land. Keeping this in mind will help you approach the land owner with their perspective in mind.

Chris Moratz, on behalf of the climbing community, please tell us why landowners should allow access to climbing on private property. This topic will be at the heart of any discussions held with landowners.

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#41583 - 11/13/08 04:08 PM Re: Why should private landowners allow access? [Re: Kent]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
Kent, it really seems that you're baiting Chris as much as you see yourself as baited, which is generally not a useful or productive tactic.

Instead of going further down that road, can you answer this specific question: What do you want, from climbers, in order to ensure access to the cliff on your land? What, specifically, are you looking for here?

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#41599 - 11/13/08 05:51 PM Re: Why should private landowners allow access? [Re: Julie]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
Julie, thank you for your question. I have to take a break from all this right now. I'll be back later to respond, but perhaps as late as tomorrow or tomorrow night.

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#41603 - 11/13/08 06:25 PM Re: Why should private landowners allow access? [Re: Kent]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
I don’t know how Kent will reply now, but I am pretty sure that the any history saved here will indicate that what Kent previously wanted was for the GCC to oppose Save The Ridge. My interpretation is that the GCC felt that Save the Ridge was far more supportive of natural areas and hence climbing than appeasing a few landowners would have been.

I think that many of us here sympathize with the smaller land owners, and if it were within our power we might edit its stipulations. But, that does not mean that we are going to oppose Save The Ridge.

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#41606 - 11/13/08 06:45 PM Re: Why should private landowners allow access? [Re: Kent]
Fraser Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 700
Loc: New Canaan, CT
 Originally Posted By: Kent
From the Access Fund website...
 Quote:
It is important to remember that private landowners really have no incentive to allow the general public to recreate on their land. Keeping this in mind will help you approach the land owner with their perspective in mind.

Chris Moratz, on behalf of the climbing community, please tell us why landowners should allow access to climbing on private property. This topic will be at the heart of any discussions held with landowners.


Hi Kent,

I'm confused, do you want to have a meeting or you don't want to have a meeting?

If you are really interested in dialogue, as rg so wisely says, trolling over the internet isn't the most effective means of communication. (For example, you're probably already taking exception to the first two sentences and I haven't said anything.)

Anyway, I can't speak for anyone other than myself, but I'd be happy to meet with you anytime to listen to your concerns at the ice climb of your choosing.

Second, your generous offer of $500 to find the culprits who stole the litter doesn't look like it will be used. Would you consider giving that money directly to the GCC so that we can reinvest it in rescue equipment? I promise that 100% of the money will go to rescue equipment. Thanks for your consideration.

Peace.

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#41667 - 11/14/08 03:42 PM Re: Why should private landowners allow access? [Re: Fraser]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
Fraser,

Invite landowners and I'm sure some will come. I know I will, on behalf of myself and, on behalf of another landowner who has formally asked me to represent them.

As for ice climbing...meet you at the bottom of Mindbender (your lead) at Willoughby in about thirty days or another climb of your choice. \:D

K


Edited by Kent (11/14/08 05:06 PM)

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#41670 - 11/14/08 04:03 PM Re: Why should private landowners allow access? [Re: Julie]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
 Originally Posted By: Julie
Kent, it really seems that you're baiting Chris as much as you see yourself as baited, which is generally not a useful or productive tactic.

Instead of going further down that road, can you answer this specific question: What do you want, from climbers, in order to ensure access to the cliff on your land? What, specifically, are you looking for here?


I'm not looking to bait Chris but rather to get him to articulate respect for private property as written about on The Access Fund website:

"Be respectful and develop a responsible reputation."

"Respect the landowner by climbing, hiking or using the land in other ways only when and where the landowner approves."

"The landowner says no.....get the word out to the local climbing community that the area is not open to climbing."

"By respecting the landowner's wishes, climbers are building their reputation as respectful neighbors."

"Do not publish any articles or guidebook information about a climbing area on private lands without the permission of the landowner."

As for what landowners, including me, who have closed their land or are about to, want now...we don't want anything from climbers other than for climbers to respect our wishes and stay off the land.

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#41684 - 11/14/08 06:23 PM Re: Why should private landowners allow access? [Re: Kent]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
Ok, Kent, what I hear is that you want respect. I also hear that you are presently in the "no trespassing, nobody" camp, and what you want is respect in the form of no trespassing.

Here's what I'd still like to know, though: in exchange for access to cliffs on or through your land, what specifically do you want from climbers? Not the AF, not the GCC, not the FoS, not the Preserve, not the town of Gardiner - but, what can we offer as climbers in exchange for access?

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#41685 - 11/14/08 06:35 PM Re: Why should private landowners allow access? [Re: Julie]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
Julie, access just isn't on the table at all right now.

In the future, access may be on the table again. With respect to recreationists, specifically climbers, access or the lack thereof will be a function of whether or not climbers demonstrate respect for property rights over time.

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#41691 - 11/14/08 06:59 PM Re: Why should private landowners allow access? [Re: Kent]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
Then, what is your goal with all of this?

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#41694 - 11/14/08 07:07 PM Re: Why should private landowners allow access? [Re: Julie]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
To protect, to the best of my ability, the property rights of ridge landowners who include retired, elderly, politically disenfranchised, long time Gardiner residents who have been thrown under the bus, so to speak, despite their long record of respectful land stewardship.

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#41708 - 11/14/08 08:08 PM Re: Why should private landowners allow access? [Re: Kent]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
 Originally Posted By: Kent
Julie, access just isn't on the table at all right now.

In the future, access may be on the table again. With respect to recreationists, specifically climbers, access or the lack thereof will be a function of whether or not climbers demonstrate respect for property rights over time.

<What is your goal then?>
To protect, to the best of my ability, the property rights of ridge landowners who include retired, elderly, politically disenfranchised, long time Gardiner residents who have been thrown under the bus, so to speak, despite their long record of respectful land stewardship.

With 4 or 6 threads weaving around the same subject, it's hard to know where to put the reply!

Seems to me that when you strip away all the language about respect and landowner rights, we get this:

  • Kent and other ridge landowners are pissed off at the Gardiner zoning changes.
  • They are also pissed off at the involvement of the MP, FoS, StR, and GCC in the process.
  • They want the zoning ordinance changed.
  • They want climbers to help them by siding with them
  • If climbers do this, then the landowners may have some degree of economic leverage against Gardiner and perhaps the MP, et al.
  • The landowners are using access as a coercion tactic, with the "possibility" of access in the future as the carrot, providing climbers show the due deference and "respect".

So in essence, the climbing community is being used as a pawn. Is it really that surprising that there's push-back from climbers, or the afore-mentioned "We don't care" attitude? Kent, when it's this blatant, do you realistically expect a lot of help from the climbing community? (Even from those of us who actually agree with what the AF says about trespass and permission and landowner wishes?)

Negotiation doesn't appear to be the goal. Repeal of the zoning changes does. Punishing climbers for not siding with the landowners is just collateral damage.
_________________________
- Marc

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#41712 - 11/14/08 08:18 PM Re: Why should private landowners allow access? [Re: MarcC]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
I am pretty sure that the FoS will not succeed with their frivolous lawsuit.

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#41717 - 11/14/08 08:32 PM Re: Why should private landowners allow access? [Re: MarcC]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
Marc,

Cross posting from the Listening thread, where I wrote....

"Julie, climbers are not being made pawns. Climbers were and remain principal protagonists in the struggle to take property rights from ridge landowners. Unfortunately those protagonists have made access a problem for other climbers."

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#41719 - 11/14/08 08:48 PM Re: Why should private landowners allow access? [Re: MarcC]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
And Marc, I'll address some of your other comments later. On break for now....

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