This is kind of a real bummer... but word is due to budget cutbacks the Park might not be grooming at all. Mark Ruoff has been trying to convince them to at least do some of the trails. The thing is that they make money off this so it pays for itself and more, and it attracts local tourism...!
so if as many of you as possible can write about this to the following address it should help. Please help.

New York State Office of Parks, Recreation and Historic Preservation
Empire State Plaza
Agency Building 1
Albany NY, 12238
(518) 474-0456
(518) 486-1899 TDD

It is a shame that there are budget problems but perhaps ungroomed trails will give a bit of a backcountry feel? Or else the first person out on the trail will have to lay a very good track. Unlike me - I have trouble keeping skis parallel just standing still.

I know you speed skaters will be worst affected, Chris.

skate skiers like me, to be sure, are going to be especially affected. but most skiers of any ability will enjoy a groomed trail more, that is my belief. because the trail will turn into a mess with hikers postholing, because believe me if they don't groom they will let hikers on the trails. and that will really suck, backcountry feel or no. the trails will turn into a icy, postholed, crappy mess.
see my other post about a text of a letter to New York State commissioner Carol Ash.

It's true... groomed trails last longer... Postholing doesn't have as much of a negative effect because the snow is packed down during the grooming process, which also helps it stay longer in the sun...

Methinks packed snow turns into ice quicker. YMMV.

I saw your letter Chris and will send in my version. It will indeed be a mess if the trails are left ungroomed and open to postholers.

Personally, I like the thought of lots of back country, and if there are no groomed trails, then it is open to hiking

RR that's just cause you aren't a good skier!

so what's your point??

...that you're not a good skier.

exactly... And if you were a bit better you might enjoy it more!

You know, one could actually say backcountry is the more pure form of the sport, and as such should have the right of way. Like toproping versus leading. One could say that...if one were so inclined.

RR

One could also say that skiing is fun if one can pick up speed and keep flying. On the flats that requires groomed trails, whether it's for classical or skating. If I'm going to spend my day breaking trail, though, I'd prefer to have a speedy powder descent as the payoff. Keep Minnewaska groomed!

One could also say that by definition nothing on the ridge qualifies as backcountry

I find the whole "budget cuts" thing a bit much. Really, what else is going on over there all winter? There will still be permanent employees. Yes it takes some time and gas to groom the trails, but not much at all. Even just dragging the trails with an old box spring will give a nice bed (pun intended) for the skaters. I am always happier on groomed trails but would survive either way. Freestyle is essentially impossible without grooming unless you get the perfect combo of not too much snow with a perfect powder over it or just after enough sun has slightly softened a glazing. So those days I break out the wider skiis and kick around.
Try scooting down the little trail out to Gertrudes if you want to feel like you are in backcountry.

Skiing up to Awosting Lake along the Smiley Road from Ellenville is kinda cool. You can then go over to the new Awosting Reserve lot and glide down those roads to make a nice ridge traverse. No tracks wanted!!!

hey rr I hear ya.

one of my goals has been to ski the entire ridge north to south. that would obviously entail digging out my ol backcountry skis outta tha attic.

and that would be a ton of fun. but bc skiing involves a whole lotta slow shuffling. not to imply that that is a bad thing; actually you appreciate the scenery maybe a bit more.

once you get started skiing fast, i mean really fast, on skinny skis, &groomed trails i am sure you will find it addicting - dare ya, try it.

cheers
phlan

I was doing a bunch of biathlon when skating technique hit the scene in the early 80s. It was hard to imagine using it for a whole race at the time, as it seemed so tiring and slow on the uphills. Once we started training for it, got the balance down and learned how to conserve momentum better, we were often frustrated by the difficulty of finding trails that were adequately groomed. When you achieve/find both it is like an entirely different sport.
The balance to ride a really skinny ski as far as possible on each foot is not something that most folk pick up fast but time on roller blades and roller skiis sure helps. Unfortunately the trails have to be pretty good to allow you to take advantage of the momentum. Williams Lake used to do a great job with trails but have recently closed. Now I usually just go to the Van Hovenberg trails outside of Lake Placid for reliable snow and grooming.
I hear ya, Phlan, about a ridge tour, but also find that it about as fast to use snow shoes as to track uneven terrain in b/c skiis, unless you can really take it out on some big downhills.

The dirty truth is that on the East Coast, 99% of the good skiing outside of the Presidentials and Dacks slides is on terrain that has been "prepared" in one way or another.

Sally Boys

Hey Rob,

Come skiing with us sometime. We'll have to see who can keep up the best, and rip the gnarliest lines...

Ped... I think you are talking more along the lines of downhill or alpine style skiing...

Not so much the CC...

I didn't sasy I know how to ski....I just called you all a bunch of Sally Boys. I readily admit to my skiing incompetence, but I like to retain an air of superiority sometimes.

RR

Is there a difference? The Ski to Die Club used XC skis for everything.

I ski some of the same lines those guys did, but on more modern equipment Guess that makes me a Sally Boy.

well maybe we should form a sally boy club

skinny ski sashay, sweatin' to the oldies.

Yeah.. umm... you have fun with your sally boy club, I'll be NOT sashaying, or sweatin' to the oldies...

But if RR wants to call me a sally for skiing, that's fine... Enjoy the approach SNOWSHOE into Avy Pass... Don't be sad when all the ice is pegged out by those skiing in

avalanche pass rocks, we did this wonderful 20 mile ski loop last year up Colden, down a slide, around some wonderful alpine bogs on the back side, across that river gorge (totally beautiful) that runs down to lake colden.. back out to marcy dam via avalanche pass. but what do we know, we're just sallys.

Yo Dillboy, I think you need to reexamine the definitions is cross country and back country skiing. One would not "cross country" into Avalanche...one would Back country into Avalanche.

RR

Not sure I agree, RR, as that trail is so well packed and travelled now adays that is is essentially groomed. The last bit climbing up to the lake is a bit steeper than your average touring trail, but I've been on some stuff that was pretty comparable during races. Of course, just after a big dump the trip again feels pretty back country.

this thread is taking a turn for the worse, eh?

Chip... I find that after a big dump, the trail is a bit easier since I'm a little lighter on the feet

A big dump can make your whole day. How's that for thread drift?

well this dump certainly made my day.
a huge day it was indeed and a quite jolly one.
excellent, no, awesome conditions.

and Minne GROOMED!!