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#41904 - 11/22/08 11:59 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Mike Rawdon]
andrew Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 1816
Loc: Denver, CO
I am so glad I live in the west where most land is public unless otherwise posted. Land owners certainly can do whatever they please with their land, but it is unfortunate that land ownership is so often so used as an excuse to be a petty tyrant. An awful lot of private land, especially in the east, should never have been made private in the first place.
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#41905 - 11/23/08 02:29 AM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: andrew]
empicard Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2954
Loc: LI, NY
How is doing what one pleases with something they OWN being a petty tyrant?
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#41907 - 11/23/08 02:52 AM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: empicard]
andrew Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 1816
Loc: Denver, CO
Like I said, I think there is way too much private property in the USA, particularly in the east. I don't consider owning large(say over an acre) parcels of land to be exactly like owning a car or a house - you can't make any more of it, some pieces of land are unique treasures that all people should be able to enjoy, and no one really can legally do whatever they please with their own land - you can't build permanent structures, dump toxic waste, start a mine, etc. just because you want to and own the land.

People are certainly legally entitled to cut off access to their own land, and i'm not advocating trespassing or land seizures, but I do think it is sad when people cut off recreational access just because they can. A petty tyrant owns the country he rules and is within his legal rights to rule as he pleases, but it doesn't make the situation ideal, morally right, or beneficial to anyone but himself. I have the same opinion about landowners cutting off access to land resources that are better shared with their fellow countrymen.

When I owned land with recreational value in Utah, I had no problem letting people use an old skid road on the property - it was a popular place for people to walk dogs. I could have cut off access, but I chose not to.
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#41911 - 11/23/08 04:51 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: andrew]
Tai Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 290
Loc: Middle of nowhere: South Salem...
Sorry, but how is letting people use an old skid road - that, I'm assuming, had been there when you bought the property - at all similar to having people willfully deface your property without your permission or even knowledge?

Would you have wanted someone - without your authorization - to come through and cut that "old skid road" through pristine wilderness?

T
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#41912 - 11/23/08 05:19 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Tai]
andrew Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 1816
Loc: Denver, CO
It isn't, and I didn't make that comparison. I never said anything at all about the bolts, and I wouldn't be happy about that either. I still wouldn't shut down access without a really compelling reason, and I wouldn't try to enlist neighbors in an anti-access jihad. I mentioned the skid road only to illustrate that I have owned property with recreational value before and allowed access, so I am not just spouting theoretical BS.

I don't like landowners closing recreational land period, and especially when it seems like a kneejerk reaction. I think it is especially hypocritical that people lambast the mountain house for closing skytop but give smaller landowners a free pass. I don't see any difference between the two.

Note that I am not advocating trespassing, making alterations without permission, or even ditching user fees - these are things i've never done(I have even purchased day passes for Eddie before so I didn't feel guilty climbing with him at the Gunks). I'm also not saying that landowners don't have the right to shut off access to their land. I am simply saying that I believe a landowner is a total asshole for shutting off recreational access to their land, especially in a place like the east that has a real scarcity of public lands.
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#41916 - 11/24/08 12:13 AM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: andrew]
Allenperry Offline
member

Registered: 02/11/03
Posts: 195
Loc: Reading, Pennsylvania
 Originally Posted By: andrew
(I have even purchased day passes for Eddie before so I didn't feel guilty climbing with him at the Gunks).


I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I have say, That is Funny!
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#41917 - 11/24/08 02:21 AM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Allenperry]
Dizzy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 2177
Loc: Berkshires, MA and Ahlington, ...
So, I have a question. Assuming that Kent has purchased his land recently he must have had a title search performed. If this search did not reveal an easement, then how is one established? Can he assume that if an easement is to asserted, the clock starts once he took possession of the land?

I am but a lowly physical biochemist, but it seems to me that if the recent title search turned up no easements on his property then one doesn't exist.

Ta,
Dizz
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#41921 - 11/24/08 04:59 AM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Dizzy]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2467
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Dizz, an easement by prescription is something that is claimed by someone who has been using the land all along. It doesn't exist and cannot be found in the title documents until the claim is actually made. The legal right to make that claim does not occur until the use has been ongoing continuously for at least ten years.

A quick check turned up that in Oregon anyway, the supreme court there held that the clock does not reset upon new ownership if the activity under which the easement by prescription is claimed has already been going on.

I posted more speculation about these topics here. Beware, as a lowly mathematician, my knowledge of real estate law matches your lowly biochemical level.

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#41926 - 11/24/08 02:17 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: andrew]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
 Quote:
I mentioned the skid road only to illustrate that I have owned property with recreational value before and allowed access, so I am not just spouting theoretical BS.

Andrew, prior to the passage of the zoning law, which hurt ridge landowners badly, landowners allowed unfettered access to their land. It was always live and let live. As I've mentioned before what's taken place in the last few years amounts to live and let the landowners die.

 Quote:
I don't like landowners closing recreational land period, and especially when it seems like a kneejerk reaction.

It's been talked about for over three years now so it's not a knee jerk reaction.

 Quote:
I am simply saying that I believe a landowner is a total asshole for shutting off recreational access to their land.

That's it Andrew. That's absolutely the last straw. No offshore trips to the canyons for you when you come to town.

Seriously though, try walking a mile in our shoes. Landowners have lost, in many cases, hundreds of thousands of dollars in land value, each. What have climbers lost? Access to a few trails, a few climbs, and a few acres of land. There are hundreds of other miles of trails, hundreds of other climbs, and tens of thousands of other acres to go play on.

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#41927 - 11/24/08 02:43 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Kent]
pda Offline
addict

Registered: 08/30/01
Posts: 621
Loc: Bergen County NJ
Kent - The loss in land value has nothing to do with access to the climber trail, which I'm sure you're aware. You seem to want to link climbers to the zoning change when there is no link there. It is your fellow town citizens that have decided that. Not the climbers.

Eddy, on the other hand, was directly affected by certain climber actions, not by the town.

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