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#45045 - 05/27/09 09:05 PM Time for e climbing ethics debate
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3763
Loc: Ulster County, NY
It's been a long time since we argued about actual climbing ethics around here, so let's try to piss some people off, eh? Was out climbing Sunday evening in the Nears, and as we walked underneath Kansas City we could see that it had obviously been fixed for a free ascent. There was gear left in place all the way down to the ground with draws. The presence of draws is what tells me that it was someone trying to free it. There was no one around as we walked in around 4pm, and still no one around as we left at around 7pm. We came back around 10:30 and we were going to do our cliff scavenger thing, but the gear was gone by then.

My question is...do people have the right to fix a route like that with their gear, and leave it for a period of time? Do they have a reasonable right to expect to see their gear still there when they come back? Especially when it was fixed all the way to the ground. I little bouldering about 15' off the ground would have removed a brand new camalot along with a quickdraw. It is my contention that Kansas City is not exactly a cutting edge route, and has been free climbed by hundreds of people since the 1970's. Fixing your own gear on it and leaving it for a later time is extremely selfish and is not acceptable. If you want to fix and come down, and then attempt it then feel free. But what if you leave your gear, and someone else wants to climb it after you leave? Now they have to get your gear out of the way before they can climb the route the way it is meant to be climbed. I can reasonably see fixing something like Spinal Traction, which has not yet been freed. Even though it does get in the way of an aid ascent, the free ascent should take precedence. But Kansas City??? C'mon!

For what it is worth, if we had scored that gear I would have notified the preserve that if anyone came asking about gear they had left on Kansas City to please tell them I had it. But once you leave gear on the cliff, especially here in the Gunks, it is free for the taking! Just my opinion.

RR

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#45046 - 05/27/09 09:10 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: RangerRob]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2674
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Your point is quite valid, RR, but I also like to cut folk a break if possible and give it a day. I always try to think of reasons they may have left it, including injury. Now if my whole weekend had been about aiding up K.C., I'd have been less laid back about it. My rule has always been that if I walk away it is booty gear.

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#45047 - 05/27/09 09:14 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: RangerRob]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
You're just pissed that someone else got the gear / or got the gear back smirk

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#45048 - 05/27/09 09:16 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: chip]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3763
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Yeah we had asked if there were any accidents before we got there. There weren't any reported. and of course I would have given the gear back if it's rightful owner contacted me through the Preserve. I remember when I first started climbing getting a yellow camalot stuck in the start of Broken Sling. My partner and our buddy and I spent over an hour on TR trying everything we could to get that thing out, but we couldn't. We went over to do something else further down, and when we walked back past broken Sling about an hour later, it was gone. I was kinda pissed because I assumed that someone actually watched us trying to get it, then scavenged it themselves after we left. But, it was also my fault for putting the wrong sized peice in there and not having the expierance to get it out. This was not the case on Kansas City.

RR

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#45049 - 05/27/09 09:16 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: RangerRob]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3763
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Damned right I'm pissed. I can't afford to replace my old Camalots!

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#45073 - 05/28/09 10:11 AM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: RangerRob]
LarE Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 45
Just out of curiosity, how often do we think KC sees a free ascent these days? Once a weekend? Once a month? Once a season?

As far as the fixed gear thing goes, seems to me KC is a borderline case. You sure wouldn't want to leave fixed gear all over a 10 or 11 you were working on, unless it was EXTREMELY obscure; and you could certainly be forgiven for leaving it on a 12 or 13, especially if it is relatively out of the way (say, Twilight Zone, Project X). In a borderline case, it seems best to be polite: if you're the climber, don't leave your gear all the way down to the ground; if you find the gear, cut the other guy some slack and leave it untouched. But whatever...

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#45076 - 05/28/09 01:05 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: LarE]
keith Offline
journeyman

Registered: 03/26/09
Posts: 70
Loc: The beach
if the gear sat longer than a day id call it booty. this is the gunks keep the gear fixing rehearsal stuff to sport areas where there are no ethics

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#45078 - 05/28/09 01:09 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: keith]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3763
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Right on Keith!!! Except for that whole waiting a day thing. I'm way too impatient for that.

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#45086 - 05/28/09 03:17 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: RangerRob]
andrew Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 1816
Loc: Denver, CO
Gear was fixed on the 5.easy climbing up to the roof? That makes it a really goofy situation. I can see leaving a couple of pieces fixed in the roof while trying to free it, but not down low on the easy stuff.

Lots of gumbie aid climber epics happen there, so it is possible the gear was there just long enough for someone to drive to rock and snow and ask someone how to jumar.
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This isn't an office. It's Hell with fluorescent lighting.

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#45087 - 05/28/09 03:20 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: RangerRob]
Dizzy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 2177
Loc: Berkshires, MA and Ahlington, ...
I'm amused that someone would fix gear between the ground and the roof cuz it's basically a walk up.

Kids these days.

Ta,
Dizz


Edited by Dizzy (05/28/09 03:21 PM)
Edit Reason: Edited to reflect that andrew's post occured while I was writing
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