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#45678 - 06/11/09 12:25 PM Worst 3 star route?
TrappDyke Offline
journeyman

Registered: 06/10/09
Posts: 80
This is in oxymoron right? I figured it would be too easy and not very interesting to simply name the worst routes in the Gunks due to the vast expanses of choss. SO maybe these should be routes that really deserve 1 or no stars at all. Anyway, I don't know how many of these are out there, probably not too many but I can think of one that I've climbed twice now and even got a little annoyed that the author of the climb(and guide book)had the nerve to call such a wandering, boring, contrived line a classic. Turdland. Ugh. Like a turd in my drink this has left an awful taste in my mouth for days. No natural line, in fact the poorly placed bolts dictate where you go, which never feels natural. Bad bolts, scary leg breaking traverse which demands one necessary 5.8 move at its end to get some gear, and then the part that really kills me. The phony 5.10 roof. Why anyone would want to subject themselves to pulling this silly move with poor gear in a poor flake is beyond me, so I opt to step about 14" out to the right and take the reasonable way through the roof at about 5.8. After the 25' rope dragging traverse to the bolts you have completed Turdland! A no star, three star, it's only three stars because I'm the guidebook author Gunks classic!

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#45687 - 06/11/09 03:06 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: TrappDyke]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2677
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
The name has always kept me away and now I feel justified.

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#45704 - 06/11/09 05:45 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: chip]
Coppertone Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Newtown, CT
I have always found Turdland to be fun if not contrived. It is a little run out, but the gear is good. Doubles makes all the traversing far more reasonable. I don't think that I have ever seen this route with 3 stars though.

A few three star routes which I have never cared for are:
Eastertime Too

Shockleys(I know people love it, but I have always found it to be an uninteresting ugly climb. There are far better 5.6 routes out there)

Something Interesting(never found it very interesting, it's neighbor to the right however Still Crazy After All these years is a great climb that is rarely climbed hidden amongst a wall full of classics. That route has a great crux sequence)

Frogs Head(Greasy and polished, maybe it was a better climb 20 years ago. Its neighbors Maria and City Lights and Son of Easy O are far more interesting and on nicer rock)

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#45706 - 06/11/09 06:03 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: Coppertone]
nonya Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/26/02
Posts: 65
Loc: Gardiner, NY
I've always thought that Shockley's was barely fantastic and Mainline was merely excellent.

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#45710 - 06/11/09 06:21 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: nonya]
Coppertone Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Newtown, CT
Shockleys I think is either love or hate. There are obviously many that think the route is great, but I have spoken with quite a few climbers that don't particularly care for the route. It has great exposure, but I don't find the climbing to be all that nice or interesting.

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#45713 - 06/11/09 06:32 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: Coppertone]
Jannette Offline

Cliffmama
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 10/03/00
Posts: 2225
Loc: Gardiner, NY
Personally, I love Eastertime Too.

I'm not a fan of Shockleys, perhaps because I have never been able to do that overhang move in a graceful style. More like grunt, slap, drag, grasp, heave, whine. It's not a fun move.

Jannette

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#45719 - 06/11/09 07:52 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: Jannette]
caver Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 260
Loc: High Falls
bogus 3 star routes.........
a couple moderates that are ok, but 3 star?
Belly Roll
Bloody Bush (esp. the upper mank!)

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#45732 - 06/11/09 09:00 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: caver]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
Man I love the this new grumpier gunks.com Sure beats reading about the best 5.8 smirk

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#45736 - 06/11/09 09:11 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: Smike]
tradjunkie Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 365
so many to choose from....

Criss Cross Direct
Broken Sling
Disneyland
Gelsa
Main Line
Horseman
Belly Roll
City Lights
Drunkard's
Bloody Bush
Strictly
Higher Stannard
Minty
V-3
3 Doves
Ursula
The Winter
Simple Suff

and I haven't even done Turdland, though I've been very tempted to by looking at it from the ground and from Cakewalk...

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#45748 - 06/12/09 02:16 AM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: Smike]
AOR Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/27/04
Posts: 392
Originally Posted By: Smike
Man I love the this new grumpier gunks.com Sure beats reading about the best 5.8 smirk


I have to agree with you. I've chuckled (and, even laughed out loud) more in the last few weeks/months over the majority of the posts on gunks.com.

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#45749 - 06/12/09 02:20 AM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: AOR]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
Criss Cross Direct is worth every star.

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#45752 - 06/12/09 02:35 AM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: tradjunkie]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2677
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
[quote=tradjunkie]so many to choose from....

Criss Cross Direct
Broken Sling
Disneyland
Gelsa
Main Line
Horseman
Belly Roll
City Lights
Drunkard's
Bloody Bush
Strictly
Higher Stannard
Minty
V-3
3 Doves
Ursula
The Winter
Simple Suff

Ok, I've gotta disagree on a few of these. What is not to love about Horseman, Disneyland and V-3? I even love Frog's Head. Eastertime is pretty sweet.
I wasn't thrilled by Broken Sling and City Lights is one of those "special" polished starts that only feels reasonable after you already know you can do the moves, so I can see the potential dissatisfication. 3 Doves is a great follow but the pin protection is less than courage inspiring. So a couple of these might not be too far off, depending on your perspective. My perspective is that of a chicken.

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#45753 - 06/12/09 02:37 AM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: chip]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2677
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
And Ursula was pretty cool-de-la.

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#45754 - 06/12/09 04:07 AM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: tradjunkie]
cfrac Offline
addict

Registered: 04/26/08
Posts: 462
Originally Posted By: tradjunkie
so many to choose from....

Criss Cross Direct
Broken Sling
Disneyland
Gelsa
Main Line
Horseman
Belly Roll
City Lights
Drunkard's
Bloody Bush
Strictly
Higher Stannard
Minty
V-3
3 Doves
Ursula
The Winter
Simple Suff

Are you out of your mind? These are some of the greatest climbs in the country. Can you name a better 3 pitch 5.4 in the world than Gelsa?!?!?!? And Disneyland?!?! The rock is absolutely gorgeous!!! I love Minty too! As far as Shockley's goes if you avoid the initial corner and head up the face the climb and the rock are out of this world, the white rock with great friction near the top is outstanding!!! I suggest dropping the rope and going out to solo these routes mid-week, there is nowhere else that you can climb so much steep solid rock at that grade.

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#45756 - 06/12/09 11:09 AM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: TrappDyke]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
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#45758 - 06/12/09 12:39 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: talus]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2677
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Nice, Talus. I had completely forgotten.

Gelsa was even better a couple years ago when there was a resident black rat snake for most of the spring at the belay to the top corner. Nothing like going to the zoo and climbing at the same time!

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#45762 - 06/12/09 02:50 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: chip]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Originally Posted By: chip
Nothing like going to the zoo and climbing at the same time!

Doesn't that describe pretty much every weekend day at the Gunks?
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#45772 - 06/12/09 04:39 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: cfrac]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2361
Loc: Boston
tradjunkie's gotta be trolling. Those really are superb routes.

Not gonna bite.

GO

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#45790 - 06/12/09 10:41 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: GOclimb]
tradjunkie Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 365
I admit, I did look again and think, "what is he crazy?"

Somebody let me know, am I the first person in internet history to troll himself?

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#45821 - 06/14/09 08:58 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: tradjunkie]
empicard Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2957
Loc: LI, NY
double chin. i dont know if it gets any stars, but how is it possible that most of my friends climbed this piece of crap? did we all do it on the same day, no one had the chance to tell anyone else how badly it sucked?
i just did something interesting yesterday and LOVED IT.
shockleys- cant do it gracefully. ugh.
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tOOthless

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

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#45832 - 06/15/09 02:20 AM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: empicard]
J@son Offline
member

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 101
Loc: New Jersey
I did double chin last week. Stinker for sure.
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#45849 - 06/15/09 04:48 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: J@son]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
I'll vote for Main Line. And it may be sacrilege but I've never felt like High E was all that.

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#45854 - 06/15/09 05:04 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: empicard]
Leemouse2 Offline
addict

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 459
Loc: Rosendale, NY
I'm sure there's someone that can do Shockley's gracefully but it sure as hell ain't me. The last time I led I have to thank the not one but TWO parties who came up to the ledge and were watching me lead it for not laughing out loud at the knee hook and sideways pull up I did.

But Gelsa? Come on, that's an amazing route. I think the third pitch is really what you come for, of course, but it's amazing exposure and climbing for the grade.
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#45857 - 06/15/09 05:50 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: Leemouse2]
Coppertone Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Newtown, CT
The first part of High is is nothing special at all. It really only has about 40 feet of great climbing. Granted that 40 feet is pretty awsome, but I always thought that routes such as the Last Shall Be First had much more climbing on it than all of those three star 5.6 routes such as High E and Shockelys.

I guess it is all a matter of preference. One persons 3 star route is anothers s**t pile and vice versa.

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#45864 - 06/15/09 06:14 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: dalguard]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
Originally Posted By: dalguard
I'll vote for Main Line. And it may be sacrilege but I've never felt like High E was all that.


It's well worth climbing, just maybe not worth the walk.

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#45911 - 06/16/09 05:10 AM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: pedestrian]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
Both?

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#45920 - 06/16/09 12:21 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: dalguard]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
Main Line: I thought the first pitch was surprisingly tough for what is actually a fairly low angle face climb. There were some positions above gear on that where I was feeling a little worked, but never desperate. The second pitch is just a typical Gunks overhanging jug haul, but fun.

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#45994 - 06/17/09 12:17 AM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: pedestrian]
empicard Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2957
Loc: LI, NY
LSBF is GREAT!
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tOOthless

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

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#62148 - 01/02/12 03:26 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: empicard]
SethG Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 710
Loc: NYC
Did Double Chin yesterday. Good route! Hard for 5.5. Lots of good moves on it. Seldom occupied.
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#62149 - 01/02/12 06:15 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: AOR]
jakedatc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
i disagree with a lot of these too!

Something interesting was definitely interesting.

I'll do P1 bloody bush every trip if someone wants to do it.

Gelsa P2 and up is awesome for the grade.. my friend climbs .12+ trad and loved leading it.

Eastertime was really fun.

double chin is only 2 star.. 1 star might be better.. the top is awkward for me.

i didn't like shockleys the last time b/c some gumbies broke it into like 9 pitches in front of us.

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#62150 - 01/02/12 06:24 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: jakedatc]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2677
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
LSBF is the stuff for 5.6. In an area with phenomenal 5.6 routes it stands out as my fav, certainly the first pitch.

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#62151 - 01/02/12 09:39 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: chip]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5978
Loc: 212 land
Chip, imagine if all of us used only initials for route names.
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#62157 - 01/03/12 02:26 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: oenophore]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2677
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Good point, Oeno. I could claim that I was following Evan's example but we all know how foolish even that concept is.
LSBF=Last Shall Be First

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#62159 - 01/03/12 02:45 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: chip]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5978
Loc: 212 land
Thanks Chip. I tried and failed to guess. Perhaps, in an addition to our ongoing Guess the route thread, we could have one in which the poster submits initials of at least four letters and the reader must puzzle it out. No fair peeping at a guidebook.
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#62160 - 01/03/12 03:20 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: oenophore]
tradjunkie Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 365
You mean like SWDMW, RCNTAFTF, TPATP, ROTFCC, and CTEP?

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#62161 - 01/03/12 04:27 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: tradjunkie]
empicard Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2957
Loc: LI, NY
the only one i can get out of there is realm of the fifth class climber.
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tOOthless

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

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#62162 - 01/03/12 04:31 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: empicard]
NYZoo Offline
journeyman

Registered: 07/06/08
Posts: 59
Loc: Gunks
My votes are for Balrog, P38 and Turdland... I didn't like any of them...

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#62164 - 01/03/12 05:19 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: NYZoo]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
This is a great thread, and one that has come back to life after nearly two years of death. When I first started climbing in the Gunks, there were the BIG 3 5.6's to do...Shockley's, Madame G's, and High E. The only one worth 3 stars is Madame G's. That being said, the middle pitch of Shockley's is probably the best pitch of 5.3 climbing in the Gunks. Just forget about the last pitch and do the route at 5.3...you'll have a much better experience.

I tend to not like contrived, squeezed in lines. Someone mentioned Turdland, and I think that falls into the contrived category nicely. I will put up my personal vote for worst starred route. It may not get 3 stars in the book, but Overhanging Layback doesn't deserve any stars as far as I am concerned. The crux on this thing is completyely contrived. It's 5.7 only if you do everything in your power to avoid the footrail 6 inches lower that makes it about 5.4. Shitty climbing.

I'm gonna get beat up by my next offering. Never Never Land has always struck me as quite possibly the very worst of Gunks climbing all packed into one pitch. Off angled climbing on greasy, sheared off glass crystals, protcted by bolts. I've been on this thing once and would NEVER voluntarily do it again.

Someone put Simple Suff in this list?? I have to protest. That is a fabulous route, once you get away from the ankle breaker start.

RR

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#62166 - 01/03/12 05:27 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: RangerRob]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2677
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Rob, I completely agree about the middle of Shockley's being great 5.3, with only Yum Yum being better and upper pitch of Gelsa right there.
I'm not on the harder climbs very much anymore and often don't remember them well enough to comment, but I was on Never Never a couple years ago and just don't see the allure of that pitch other than knowing there is bolt pro.

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#62167 - 01/03/12 06:55 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: tradjunkie]
SethG Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 710
Loc: NYC
Originally Posted By: tradjunkie
You mean like SWDMW, RCNTAFTF, TPATP, ROTFCC, and CTEP?



I resorted to Swain's index and still only figured out two of these apart from Realm.
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#62168 - 01/03/12 08:10 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: RangerRob]
retroscree Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: RangerRob
It may not get 3 stars in the book, but Overhanging Layback doesn't deserve any stars as far as I am concerned. The crux on this thing is completyely contrived. It's 5.7 only if you do everything in your power to avoid the footrail 6 inches lower that makes it about 5.4. Shitty climbing.

Agreed it's not a good route, but the 5.7 is the awkward, chimneyish start to get established on the traverse, not the traverse under the flake itself, precisely because of that foot rail.

Never Never Land - you and others may not like it, but it's excellent preparation for routes in other areas - many routes in Tuolumne Meadows and Free Blast on El Cap immediately come to mind.

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#62169 - 01/03/12 08:18 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: retroscree]
yorick Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: hamlet\'s hand
Never Never Land also isn't over above the face. The headwall exit left is steep, tricky to figure, and a little run out. The opening face moves are no gimme, either.

It's way more than just the crux.
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it\'s Shawank-unk.

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#62170 - 01/03/12 09:24 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: yorick]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Great Retro, you just advised me of one route in the Valley to avoid. Yeah I guess i didn't find the opening chimneyish 5.7 to be that bad...oh well, still didn't like it.

I have to say, as an overall line, Grand Central is a bit....pieced together. Not terrible, but certainly that the fabulous 3 star 5.9 it is touted as being.

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#62172 - 01/04/12 12:16 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: RangerRob]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
i agree w Rob on never never land. ultra polished. all the stuff i did in the valley tuolumne were cracks nothing like nnl
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#62173 - 01/04/12 03:01 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: talus]
ianmanger Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
Originally Posted By: talus
all the stuff i did in the valley tuolumne were cracks nothing like nnl


ah, well you missed 90% of the fun. There is no grip quite like standing on nothing, way TF above the last bolt and with another mile or so to go. That said, I don't have the head for that stuff these days. I used to lap that stuff up but it just evaporated. Odd that.

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#62175 - 01/04/12 09:29 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: AOR]
wombat Offline
member

Registered: 05/27/08
Posts: 147
Loc: gardiner
C'mon RR! The NNL gear is much closer than in tuolumne though the ground is too. i like to sketch myself on it once a year when its cool. Run a more direct line in one pitch on grand central.

agree with shockleys, disneyland, overhanging layback, city lights, belly roll, bloody bush, turdland, something not that interesting

3 doves is better than arrow/limelight. travels/strickly/shockleys cures the flaws in all of those for a 3 star outing.

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#62176 - 01/04/12 11:20 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: RangerRob]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Originally Posted By: RangerRob

I have to say, as an overall line, Grand Central is a bit....pieced together. Not terrible, but certainly that the fabulous 3 star 5.9 it is touted as being.


Wunsch and I fixed that years ago. It's called Penn Station in the guidebook and has a separate top to the right of the the Grand Central finish, but I think the route is best done as Grand Central direct, i.e. follow the Penn Station start to the beginning of the steep wall that forms the first crux of Grand Central and then carry on up Grand Central from there. Grade is maybe 10a or 10b, plus every good bit of the regular Grand Central route. Pro is probably PG, G for the hardest part.

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#62177 - 01/05/12 12:34 AM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: talus]
retroscree Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: talus
all the stuff i did in the valley tuolumne were cracks nothing like nnl

What's the point of going to Tuolumne if all you're going to do are crack routes?

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#62178 - 01/05/12 03:39 AM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: retroscree]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
Originally Posted By: retroscree

What's the point of going to Tuolumne if all you're going to do are crack routes?
that's what i dig. dig it
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#62179 - 01/05/12 04:16 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: rg@ofmc]
Frank Florence Online   content
addict

Registered: 01/05/00
Posts: 528
Loc: moved to Bend
RG,
I looked at Penn Station's first pitch as a var. start to Grand Central and, as a line, it looks good from the ground. But I held off because Dick called it 10 b/c, PG, which for me is a push. You're giving it a slightly easier grading all around. Second thoughts on the matter?

And put me in the column of someone who likes GC. The crux in the middle is good, thin climbing and despite what Dick sez, the final roof doesn't have to be hard for the shorter climber.

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#62180 - 01/05/12 05:16 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: Frank Florence]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Frank, it is probably worth taking Dick's word for it; he isn't known for undergrading routes! My memory of the route goes back quite a ways. I think Wunsch and I were both climbing 5.12 at the time and so the route, though really excellent, didn't seem hard. I think it is easier than, say, Transcon, but of course nowadays people get that wired and forget how hard it is onsight. I also don't have any idea whether Dick's grade might refer to the last pitch, which I've recommended avoiding.

As for protection, I really have no idea. Isn't the first steep crux on Grand Central also PG? If so, it could be that the PG comes from that part.

My memory of the protection on the Penn Station part is that it was tricky to protect the delicate step right at the top of the Grand Central starting dihedral because of a very shallow and maybe also flared horizontal placement, but after that the pro for the variation was closer to G than PG. If the tricky placement (and I don't know if it is tricky any more with modern gear) blows, there is still a good nut just below foot level, but there would also be a swing back into the corner, so that could account for a PG rating perhaps.

The delicate step right might be 5.9, no harder, unless you are tall enough (I think well over 6 feet) to keep your feet below the slab that forces the delicate move.

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#62181 - 01/05/12 10:54 PM Re: Worst 3 star route? [Re: rg@ofmc]
Dana Offline
addict

Registered: 07/13/00
Posts: 619
The delicate step right Rich refers to is about 5.9: 3 moves or so and there is a a good hold and a stance. You are depending on tiny cams for protection and the ones I placed did not inspire a lot of confidence. There is gear in the dihedral, but if the cams pulled the fall would be awkward and would not be clean.

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