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#45777 - 06/12/09 05:54 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: granite_grrl]
TerrieM Offline
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
OH DEAR! - Has Ranger Rob been outed for leaving trash in situ from his cleaning attempt!!!??? (har har)

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#45818 - 06/14/09 03:21 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: TerrieM]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
No I did that on another cliff yesterday. Don't worry, if you can find it before I get back there, it's yours

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#48696 - 10/15/09 09:15 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: RangerRob]
camhead Offline
stranger

Registered: 06/04/09
Posts: 10
Hey Gunkies! I thought I would revive this thread and poke the pissed off lion in the cage a bit more. Anyway, we came back to the Gunks for another busy weekend this past C-day. I got on Kansas City once again; it was the end of the day, and I was planning to hang my draws on one go, and then leave them over night so I could come back the next morning. Unfortunately, I could not do this, because I sent it fairly quickly.

I do think that Rangerrob and all the other armchair ethicists have been slacking, however, because all that fixed gear was still on the route. Some selfish litterbug aid climber deprived me of a true trad ascent, and I cried the real tears all night.

I'm still unsure whether this is a trad pinkpoint, or a sport redpoint. Although, there are at least two videos on youtube dating back over a decade of the route, and both show the in-situ gear.

Anyway, that's all, back to your regular programing; the Gunks are awesome, and I can't wait to get back!

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#48697 - 10/15/09 09:30 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: camhead]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Well Camhead, I did my part. Shortly after I started this thread I went up and cleaned most of the fixed gear off. I added 3 nuts to my booty rack. It is sad that it gets littered so fast. You're right, it does ruin peoples chances of onsighting a classic line. I don't think people should aid things like that unless they can be reasonably certain that they can do it clean. Props for the ascent by the way!

RR

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#48725 - 10/16/09 07:54 AM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: camhead]
jstan Offline
stranger

Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 22
"I would be very interested to hear how much fixed gear was on Kansas City for the FFA."

I did it a couple weeks after Bragg. I don't remember there being much. The aid routes were never left as clipups.

Ask John.

Someone suggested bootying pins from climbs like Coex.
We had a person killed because of someone doing that kind of thing.

I will say nothing more.

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#48744 - 10/16/09 09:54 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: jstan]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Armchair ethicist? That implies I don't practice what I preach! I had to leave a bail anchor on an outlying cliff after getting in over my head earlier this year, and I made damn sure I went back within a couple of days and rapped in to clean it. It ate me up that I left 2 pieces of gear, 3 biners, and a cord. I may be an armchair figure skater...armchair physicist, armchair boulderer, but I am not an armchair ethicist.

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#48752 - 10/17/09 04:39 AM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: jstan]
Jannette Offline

Cliffmama
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 10/03/00
Posts: 2225
Loc: Gardiner, NY
Originally Posted By: jstan

Someone suggested bootying pins from climbs like Coex.
We had a person killed because of someone doing that kind of thing.


Hi John,
Funny how one can read your statement both ways. Did you hire a hit man to kill the person who took the pins? Or did a climber die because those pins weren't there as expected? :-)

Jannette

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#48757 - 10/17/09 01:44 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: Jannette]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Be careful, as the answer may ignite an FBI investigation! Sounds like the makings of a good novel

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#48762 - 10/17/09 02:34 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: RangerRob]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Ken N. ended up in court for taking bolts but gettng capped for taking a pin just goes to show how hard core those earlier gunkers really were smile

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#48763 - 10/17/09 02:56 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: chip]
camhead Offline
stranger

Registered: 06/04/09
Posts: 10
ok, ok, I'm going to reply again.

First off, Jstan, thanks for your comments on the early ascents of KC; I really was curious to know how much fixed gear left over from aid ascents was on it, since, obviously many other established free climbs were put up using aid-era pins. My comment about removing the pins from Co-ex was meant to be utterly tongue-in-cheek for that reason, since so many people here will complain about fixed gear, but then clip a piton. I suppose that is just the line that we have all drawn in this game.

Furthermore, I am standing by the "armchair ethicists" comment. This entire thread was originally made up of people complaining about a "pinkpoint" ascent of KC, who had NO idea that there were fixed stoppers on the route. Nobody had thought to go look at it until I chimed in. Hence, "armchair ethicists." Maybe I should have changed it to "5.8 ethicists," I dunno.

It is really cool that Johns Bragg and Stannard did the roof placing gear on lead. If I had had more time I would have loved to do so as well, avoiding the stoppers and the pin at the lip, and it would have definitely made the route MUCH more challenging and committing.

However, I do think that it is interesting that no recent ascents I know of have placed their own gear. As I said, two videos on youtube, several photos on mountainproject, and my own conversations with one other person who sent it; all of them were essentially sport redpoints. The stoppers are still there, and a few looked VERY old.

end of rant.

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