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#46648 - 07/14/09 01:10 PM Updating the Cliff Closure
BrianRI Offline
newbie

Registered: 06/10/05
Posts: 29
I realize that it is probably a labor of love to maintain this website and it probably ends up costing money. AND it is deeply appreciated...but...wow...the cliff closure has been lifted for two weeks now and the homepage still has it on there. If the site isn't maintained it looses credibility. I learned of the lifting of the closure right away on another websites that isn't even a Gunks specific site.

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#46654 - 07/15/09 11:00 AM Re: Updating the Cliff Closure [Re: BrianRI]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5935
Loc: 212 land
it probably ends up costing money

For the curious, here's how much it costs.
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#46657 - 07/15/09 02:52 PM Re: Updating the Cliff Closure [Re: oenophore]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Originally Posted By: oenophore
it probably ends up costing money

For the curious, here's how much it costs.

That's only part of it. There's also monthly hosting costs, which includes server space and bandwidth usage, and then someone's hourly billable for doing any work on the site, which would include front page updates. We know Evan is doing a lot of this on his own time, but that is by no means "free".
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#46658 - 07/15/09 04:16 PM Re: Updating the Cliff Closure [Re: MarcC]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
I agree with Brian despite agreeing with MarcC.

As much as other bugs are an inconvenience, I agree with Brian despite agreeing with MarcC.

Mis-information is not better than no information. When you put something like a cliff closure up, you know it is not permanent. If you are not ready to take it down in a timely manner then it would been better not to have posted it to begin with.

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#46662 - 07/15/09 07:10 PM Re: Updating the Cliff Closure [Re: Mark Heyman]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
And I agree with Brian and Mark Heyman. The front page of the site should be updated when some temporary event changes, like a closure. Arguably, the front page should be updated fairly frequently on a site such as this. Weekly is not unreasonable.

I just wanted to point out that there are more costs involved in running a site like this than merely the license for the forum software.
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#46669 - 07/15/09 08:59 PM Re: Updating the Cliff Closure [Re: MarcC]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
It may be a bit sloppy, but really, in this case, it's a bit silly. To get full information on the closure, you have to click "Read the rest of this entry", and there's a comment below the entry that says the ban has been lifted.

If you didn't click to read the rest of it, you wouldn't know the full extent of the closure, and you would probably hop in the forum and ask, or ask a ranger or even ask somewhere else. And yeah, we did post to other sites as soon as we'd heard to get the word out.

So in this case, what's the worst that could happen? You're on Hawk and some noob comes up and calls you an asshole because you're climbing in what he thinks is a restricted area?

Sloppy, yeah. Something to get your panties in a bunch over? Not really.
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#46670 - 07/15/09 09:26 PM Re: Updating the Cliff Closure [Re: MarcC]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5935
Loc: 212 land
I just wanted to point out that there are more costs involved in running a site like this than merely the license for the forum software.

More than came to mind at first thought and a good reason to put this site on your "Xmas list."
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#46800 - 07/20/09 03:38 PM Re: Updating the Cliff Closure [Re: oenophore]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3763
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Aren't well all newbies on some level? Or are you using the word "Noob" to describe someone who is misinformed? I've always disliked that word. It smacks of internet elitism. "I climb 5.X and have been doing so for X years. I can't be a noob!"

That being said, it is kind of silly that the one website specifically devoted to Gunks climbing is more outdated on Gunks closures than generic climbing sites.

RR

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#46804 - 07/20/09 04:08 PM Re: Updating the Cliff Closure [Re: quanto_the_mad]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Originally Posted By: quanto_the_mad
Sloppy, yeah. Something to get your panties in a bunch over? Not really.

Panties in a bunch? Hardly. But RangerRob said it best in his recent post:
Originally Posted By: RangerRob
That being said, it is kind of silly that the one website specifically devoted to Gunks climbing is more outdated on Gunks closures than generic climbing sites.
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#46806 - 07/20/09 04:58 PM Re: Updating the Cliff Closure [Re: RangerRob]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
Originally Posted By: RangerRob
Aren't well all newbies on some level? Or are you using the word "Noob" to describe someone who is misinformed? I've always disliked that word. It smacks of internet elitism. "I climb 5.X and have been doing so for X years. I can't be a noob!"


A "noob" is someone new to the internet. Someone not familiar with websites, someone who would read a headline, and then act on the headline without reading the entire article or comments attached. That noob could be a 5.14 climber, it's not saying anything about their climbing ability, just their inability to use a website.

Originally Posted By: RangerRob

That being said, it is kind of silly that the one website specifically devoted to Gunks climbing is more outdated on Gunks closures than generic climbing sites.


I posted here and some other sites at the same time, so everyone basically got the same information in the same manner. I mean, there isn't a site out there that has a big banner that says "gunks ban lifted" on the front page, is there? To find that the closure had been lifted, they would have had to go into the discussion forums and find out, just like they would have to do here.

Yeah, the article on the front page should be updated by the webmaster, but well there is a comment posted only a week after the ban was lifted.
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#46816 - 07/20/09 08:43 PM Re: Updating the Cliff Closure [Re: quanto_the_mad]
pitfall Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/01/00
Posts: 1165
Loc: Albany
"I mean, there isn't a site out there that has a big banner that says "gunks ban lifted" on the front page, is there?"

Yeah, why would a site called Gunks.com have something like that?

It's embarrassing, really.
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#46819 - 07/20/09 09:10 PM Re: Updating the Cliff Closure [Re: pitfall]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
Why embarrassing? The info is updated. Just because the headline doesn't shout out the ban has been lifted doesn't mean the information is there.
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#46820 - 07/20/09 09:25 PM Re: Updating the Cliff Closure [Re: quanto_the_mad]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Originally Posted By: quanto_the_mad
Why embarrassing?

Let's go to quanto_the_mad.com, all the information and discussion you need to learn about QTM. There on the home page of QTM is the announcement that QTM is in jail for an indefinite period for some malfeasance. There's a little one paragraph sound bite, a link to "Read the rest of this entry" and a smaller link indicating there are 2 comments. Suppose this was on the front page for three months, and when you first saw it you did indeed "read the rest...". What on earth would motivate you to click on either the read or comments links to find out that QTM was released from jail 3 weeks ago due to a case of mistaken identity. You really don't see how that can be embarrassing?

Fresh, updated, and up-to-date content is the only thing that keeps a web site going. There are lots of ways a reader can interpret the old closure notice on the front page, most of them negative to varying degrees. If I were an advertiser purchasing ad space on the site, I'd be extremely concerned.
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- Marc

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#46821 - 07/20/09 09:33 PM Re: Updating the Cliff Closure [Re: quanto_the_mad]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Going one step further, here's a screen shot of my usual browser window. I'd have to scroll to even see the links in question:
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- Marc

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#46828 - 07/21/09 12:22 AM Re: Updating the Cliff Closure [Re: MarcC]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
Originally Posted By: MarcC
Originally Posted By: quanto_the_mad
Why embarrassing?

Let's go to quanto_the_mad.com, all the information and discussion you need to learn about QTM. There on the home page of QTM is the announcement that QTM is in jail for an indefinite period for some malfeasance. There's a little one paragraph sound bite, a link to "Read the rest of this entry" and a smaller link indicating there are 2 comments. Suppose this was on the front page for three months, and when you first saw it you did indeed "read the rest...". What on earth would motivate you to click on either the read or comments links to find out that QTM was released from jail 3 weeks ago due to a case of mistaken identity. You really don't see how that can be embarrassing?


Not at all, why would it be embarrassing? The report of the arrest would be a factual account, verified by the police. Maybe it would be embarrassing to be arrested, but not to have a site reporting the fact. And that the site didn't update the information later- what site does? Unless they publish the wrong info, there's no reason to update or retract the info.
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#46834 - 07/21/09 01:22 AM Re: Updating the Cliff Closure [Re: quanto_the_mad]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Originally Posted By: quanto_the_mad
Originally Posted By: MarcC
Originally Posted By: quanto_the_mad
Why embarrassing?

Let's go to quanto_the_mad.com, all the information and discussion you need to learn about QTM. There on the home page of QTM is the announcement that QTM is in jail for an indefinite period for some malfeasance. There's a little one paragraph sound bite, a link to "Read the rest of this entry" and a smaller link indicating there are 2 comments. Suppose this was on the front page for three months, and when you first saw it you did indeed "read the rest...". What on earth would motivate you to click on either the read or comments links to find out that QTM was released from jail 3 weeks ago due to a case of mistaken identity. You really don't see how that can be embarrassing?


Not at all, why would it be embarrassing? The report of the arrest would be a factual account, verified by the police. Maybe it would be embarrassing to be arrested, but not to have a site reporting the fact. And that the site didn't update the information later- what site does? Unless they publish the wrong info, there's no reason to update or retract the info.

It's embarrassing for the web site, not you personally. As far as the site not updating the info and "...what site does?" Most, actually. At least pretty much any site that isn't a high school student hobby.

You're getting so enmeshed in the semantic minutia that you're failing to see the far more important aspect: a site dedicated to a particular topic or area of interest looses credibility, trust, and readership, especially among new or first time visitors, if it is not:
updated
accurate
has timely, easily found updated information on topics of particular concern

For an extreme model, look at news sites, or a real estate agency. For a perhaps more germane comparison, look at sites where ad rates and revenue depend on CPMs (google it) and number of unique visitors. If your front page isn't updated with most basic of new developments on a particular topic, and you purport to be a site dedicated to this area of interest, and other sites are scooping you by weeks, that's a bit of an embarrassment. It's pretty close to being flat-out wrong on the topic in question. Kinda like Dewey winning the election (google it, kids). Especially so when you might be trying to negotiate ad rates.

For a specific example, look at: http://www.firsttracksonline.com/
Notice the posting dates of the news articles on the front page. And this is the off-season for skiing in North America and Europe.

[Disclaimer: I'm peripherally involved with FirstTracksOnLine, know the web master well, and ski/climb with him regularly.]
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- Marc

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#46839 - 07/21/09 03:23 AM Re: Updating the Cliff Closure [Re: MarcC]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3763
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Touche Quanto my friend..touche!!

You guys are super fancy and stuff with all those nested quotes within quotes, and internet snapshots of your web browser, and all that cool stuff. What's the word I'm looking for here.............?

RR

Geek?

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#46842 - 07/21/09 05:03 AM Re: Updating the Cliff Closure [Re: RangerRob]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Originally Posted By: RangerRob
What's the word I'm looking for here..........Geek?

Perhaps. I've made my living on web sites and web (browser) based applications for the past 12 years or so, specifically from the user experience/usability/interaction design perspective. It's kinda second nature.
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- Marc

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#46851 - 07/21/09 01:50 PM Re: Updating the Cliff Closure [Re: MarcC]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
Have you actually looked at the site? Have you clicked on any of the links? About? Bike? Hike? Food? Lodging? Climb?

Gunks.com isn't a site about the Gunks. It was at one time, but right now, it's a single page with a single outdated headline. Is that embarrassing? You're right, it should be. But considering that there's nothing on the site, and hasn't been any for FOUR months, I think it's a little late to say it's damaging the reputation of the site.
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#47752 - 09/01/09 04:04 PM Re: Front Page Finally Updated [Re: quanto_the_mad]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
And very apropos as well:
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#47760 - 09/01/09 06:19 PM Re: Front Page Finally Updated [Re: MarcC]
AOR Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/27/04
Posts: 392
Originally Posted By: MarcC
And very apropos as well:


As I'm sure I'm not the only one in the room who sees the pink elephant, what's the deal with this?

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#47761 - 09/01/09 06:50 PM Re: Front Page Finally Updated [Re: AOR]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
No cliff closure.
I'm Ok with nothing - if Evan is.

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#47762 - 09/01/09 07:48 PM Re: Updating the Cliff Closure [Re: MarcC]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5935
Loc: 212 land
Going one step further, here's a screen shot of my usual browser window. I'd have to scroll to even see the links in question:

Might it be that there are too many bars at the top of your browser window?
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#47763 - 09/01/09 09:22 PM Re: Updating the Cliff Closure [Re: oenophore]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Originally Posted By: oenophore
Might it be that there are too many bars at the top of your browser window?

Visible bookmarks bar, search bar, and tab bar is basically default behavior for FF. The rest is FF chrome. Also, most people don't run their browser maximized to full screen. So in answer, no.

Web sites must adapt and be accepting of user behavior and their computing environment. A web site that forces people to change their behavior stands a good chance of loosing visitors.
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#48095 - 09/22/09 11:53 PM Re: Updating the Cliff Closure [Re: quanto_the_mad]
AOR Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/27/04
Posts: 392
Originally Posted By: quanto_the_mad
Have you actually looked at the site? Have you clicked on any of the links? About? Bike? Hike? Food? Lodging? Climb?

Gunks.com isn't a site about the Gunks. It was at one time, but right now, it's a single page with a single outdated headline. Is that embarrassing? You're right, it should be. But considering that there's nothing on the site, and hasn't been any for FOUR months, I think it's a little late to say it's damaging the reputation of the site.


Just a quick update on the Homepage links...and, I'm really just wondering why. I'm well past the mild annoyance stage and have quietly settled into the "oh well" stage:

Home Page: You all know what's there.
About: "Comments are closed".
Discussion: Best part of the site.
Bike: Same as the Home page.
Climb: An ad for the beginners climbing school at Chelsea Piers which was held back in August is still there. And, when I clicked on "climb", it stated under the "Posted By" tag that I had also posted in the climb section at a certain time and date just by clicking on "climb". You'll have to click on it to know what I'm talking about.
Entertainment: Same as the Home page.
Food: Same ad as in the "climb" section. What the...???
Hike: Ad for Shawangunk Runners Summer XC Series held back in July.
Lodging: Same as the Home page.

OK...I know I'm beating the veritable dead horse. But, if I wanted to experience the gunks as a first time visitor/climber and came to this site, I'd have to scratch my head and mutter WHAT THE...???

Mild rant over.

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#48098 - 09/23/09 09:55 AM Re: Updating the Cliff Closure [Re: AOR]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5935
Loc: 212 land
Yes AOR, for the past couple of years, Gunks.com has seemed to be a work in progress. We're still somewhat endeared to it nevertheless.
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