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#46888 - 07/22/09 05:15 AM Gunks Private Property
pizzaman Offline
journeyman

Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 59
Private property in Gunks includes, but isn't limited to, Mohonk Preserve, which properly belongs to the state.

Woody Guthrie lyric:

"There was a big high wall there that tried to stop me;
Sign was painted, it said private property;
But on the back side it didn't say nothing;
That side was made for you and me."

--"This Land is Your Land:" Asch Recordings Volume 1, track 14.

Rembember Dylan's hairpin turn?

MP Trustees and various other "property rights" (err...) advocates, talk drivel in lieu of sensible answer. Give it to the state.

You can hear this lyric at 2:34 mins on youtube item Springsteen/Seeger at Obama inauguration. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5KnYADCSms&feature=related
Give (local resident) Seeger and Jersey Boy Springsteen credit.

If you disagree, please see http://www.freedom21.org/ for the consistently contrary viewpoint: Click around and find the Black Helicopters.


Youtube always fascinating:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaI5IRuS2aE


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#46889 - 07/22/09 10:46 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: pizzaman]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5962
Loc: 212 land
Pizzaman ain't no **&^%$@@% Republican!
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#46891 - 07/22/09 12:46 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: oenophore]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
"Give it to the state."
Yup so the state gov can regulate to death all recreational uses right out of there to save money. Oh ya and I am a ^$%^*#! Republican... (at least old school anyway)


Edited by Smike (07/22/09 12:46 PM)

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#46895 - 07/22/09 01:02 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: Smike]
Doug Online   content
member

Registered: 12/29/06
Posts: 175
Mmmm. Pizza.

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#46898 - 07/22/09 02:51 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: Doug]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
Originally Posted By: Doug
Mmmm. Pizza.


Except for Hawaiian pizza, I just don't get pineapple on pizza.
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#46903 - 07/22/09 03:56 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: talus]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2359
Loc: Boston
It took me 30 years to grow to accept pineapple on pizza, but now my absolute favorite pizza is pineapple, ham, and jalapenos. Sooo good!

GO

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#46904 - 07/22/09 03:59 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: GOclimb]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
There is no pizza like Pies and Pints at the new... NONE.

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#46906 - 07/22/09 04:15 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: Smike]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
I think it's so good because you have to wait so long to get in.
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#46907 - 07/22/09 04:50 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: quanto_the_mad]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5962
Loc: 212 land
I think it's so good because you have to wait so long to get in.

If that's the case, cemeteries are the best of places.
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#46910 - 07/22/09 06:14 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: oenophore]
pizzaman Offline
journeyman

Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 59
Springsteen ---What an a%$%hole!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yuc4BI5NWU&feature=related

Folds his pizza

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#46912 - 07/22/09 06:28 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: pizzaman]
empicard Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2954
Loc: LI, NY
THE ONE AND *ONLY* PROPER WAY TO EAT A SLICE OF NEW YORK FUCKING PIZZA IS TO FOLD IT. ANYONE SUGGESTING ANYTHING CONTRARY WILL BE HANGED, DRAWN, AND QUARTERED. YOUR REMNANTS WILL BE BURNT, AND USED AS PIZZA TOPPING. WHICH WILL THEN BE FOLDED, AND THROWN INTO THE LAURENTIAN ABYSS.





(except my little Izabella, who eats her pizza upsidedown)
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tOOthless

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

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#46913 - 07/22/09 06:35 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: empicard]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5962
Loc: 212 land
my little Izabella, who eats her pizza upsidedown

Is she or the pizza upside-down? Does she prefer New York fucking pizza or some other kind?
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#46914 - 07/22/09 06:36 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: oenophore]
empicard Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2954
Loc: LI, NY
depends how you look at things...
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tOOthless

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

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#46915 - 07/22/09 06:43 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: empicard]
browndog2 Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/24/01
Posts: 766
Loc: livin' on the edge
Holy fucking thread hijack, Batman.
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(not that there's anything wrong with that...sorta)

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#46917 - 07/22/09 07:19 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: browndog2]
TerrieM Offline
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
Forget pizza. I went to a beach on Hawai'i that had a little snack shack nearby, where they served smoothies and burgers.

The smoothies were yummy but the cheesburger - with a slab of grilled fresh pineapple atop - was YUMMMMMY.


I must return some day.

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#46918 - 07/22/09 07:50 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: empicard]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
Originally Posted By: empicard
NEW YORK FUCKING PIZZA IS TO FOLD IT. ANYONE SUGGESTING


Not NY pizza it's some real fuckin brooklyn pizza huh!

NSFW
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MW21lp833Vo&feature=PlayList&p=717AE3EF5FD828CF&index=4
_________________________
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#46921 - 07/22/09 08:26 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: talus]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5962
Loc: 212 land
NEW YORK FUCKING PIZZA IS TO FOLD IT. ANYONE SUGGESTING


Not NY pizza it's some real fuckin brooklyn pizza huh!

...............................................................

Is there a recipe for either of these in some adults-only cookbook?

Can we suppose that TerrieM's cheeseburger isn't known as a &^*&*%^$ Hawaiian cheeseburger?

Might this thread set a Gunks.com record for most deviations?
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#46938 - 07/23/09 11:55 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: oenophore]
Jgreene Offline
member

Registered: 07/17/08
Posts: 171
Empicard,

Thats rich, a guy from LI saying what New York pizza is..........

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#46940 - 07/23/09 12:44 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: Jgreene]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5962
Loc: 212 land
Originally Posted By: Jgreene
Empicard,

Thats rich, a guy from LI saying what New York pizza is..........
He didn't write New York City, did he? Nor did he write what it is; rather how one properly eats it. Most of all, if it's not New York fucking pizza, Empicard doesn't care how you eat it.
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#46942 - 07/23/09 01:25 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: oenophore]
TerrieM Offline
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
I dislike NY pizza and don't see how it ever got the reputation as being so special. Stereotypical NYC pizza is bland and not enough sauce.

But did you know there is a place on 9th Ave(maybe it's 10th, or 11th...) and 4nd(well, I think it's 43rd actually - or somewhere around there) where you can get a slice for 99cents? They always have a line and so the pizza is hot out of the oven.

That, and the price, and the people in the line, make it worthwhile.

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#46943 - 07/23/09 01:36 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: TerrieM]
Jgreene Offline
member

Registered: 07/17/08
Posts: 171
Oeny,

While I agree with the method that empicard described, I just always find it funny that Lawng Islanders consider themself "New Yorkers". It's like hipsters in Brooklyn......There is nothing hip about Brooklyn.

Terrie,

What is NY pizza? It's clear you only frequent the cheapest, greasy, non NY, non new yorker joints. $10 that you are not a native New Yorker by that statement.

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#46946 - 07/23/09 02:26 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: Jgreene]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5962
Loc: 212 land
I just always find it funny that Lawng Islanders consider themself "New Yorkers"

A resident of Buffalo or Massena can rightly be called a New Yorker.
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#46947 - 07/23/09 02:32 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: TerrieM]
yorick Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: hamlet\'s hand
Originally Posted By: TerrieM
I dislike NY pizza and don't see how it ever got the reputation as being so special.


The reputation of NYC bagels, breads, and pizza are derived from one thing: its water, most of which comes from the Catskills.

I once worked with a chef who trained at the Culinary Institute in Hyde Park. While he was there, they ran a blind-study - as objective as one could hope for - testing all the water they could get their hands on to determine the best one for baking. Municipal sources and many bottled water companies submitted samples, hoping to use the results in their marketing. NYC's municipal water supply won.

I've heard tales of transplanted bakers and pizzamen shipping NYC water to their bakeries and restaurants out west.
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Shongum ain\'t Indian,
it\'s Shawank-unk.

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#46949 - 07/23/09 02:43 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: yorick]
empicard Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2954
Loc: LI, NY
born in the bronx, bitches.
_________________________
tOOthless

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

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#46950 - 07/23/09 02:55 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: yorick]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Originally Posted By: yorick
I've heard tales of transplanted bakers and pizzamen shipping NYC water to their bakeries and restaurants out west.

In one of his western restaurants (San Franciso? Vegas? I don't recall.), Mario Batali adjusts the local water to match the chemistry of NYC water. The real trick is trying to make bagels in places like Denver and SLC. You can get the water chemistry right, but the elevation takes its toll. The result looks and tastes like a bagel, but the texture just isn't correct - far more bread like than proper bagel toothiness.
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- Marc

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#46951 - 07/23/09 02:55 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: TerrieM]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
Originally Posted By: TerrieM
I dislike NY pizza and don't see how it ever got the reputation as being so special. Stereotypical NYC pizza is bland and not enough sauce.

But did you know there is a place on 9th Ave(maybe it's 10th, or 11th...) and 4nd(well, I think it's 43rd actually - or somewhere around there) where you can get a slice for 99cents? They always have a line and so the pizza is hot out of the oven.

That, and the price, and the people in the line, make it worthwhile.


You mean the place on 41st and 9th? Two slices and a soda for $2.50 if IRC.

There are a lot of good pizza in the city. My favorite NY style is Totonno's, just has the right flavor of sauce and amount of cheese for me.
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#46952 - 07/23/09 02:59 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: oenophore]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
Originally Posted By: oenophore
I just always find it funny that Lawng Islanders consider themself "New Yorkers"

A resident of Buffalo or Massena can rightly be called a New Yorker.


Heh heh... yeah, and New York only has ONE football team, at least until it gets sold to Toronto.
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#46953 - 07/23/09 03:08 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: quanto_the_mad]
Jgreene Offline
member

Registered: 07/17/08
Posts: 171
Empicard,

Just cause your mother squeezed you out in the bronx and then drove you back to the island does not make you a new yorker. And if you are truely from the bronx name the most famous bagel place in the bronx that is no longer there.......A truly missed iconic place that will always be missed by true New Yorkers. No sense doing a google search since it's not there. Best of luck, cause I'm callin' you out Biatch.

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#46954 - 07/23/09 03:58 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: quanto_the_mad]
charliebutters Offline
addict

Registered: 11/11/01
Posts: 510
Loc: accord
the place on 41st and 9th worked great for me as it was close to my hunter college mfa studio and mphc....we referred to it as best frozen pizza in nyc.
my personal fav is patsy's on 118th and 1st.
number two is pizza town usa on rt 46 in Clifton. nj.
sure i am gonna get some shit for this...but nj pizza is great a bit thicker than ny...generally, nothing like benny's on 209 in stone ridge but more like cancellieres in kerhonkytonk.

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#46955 - 07/23/09 03:58 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: MarcC]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5962
Loc: 212 land
You can get the water chemistry right, but the elevation takes its toll. The result looks and tastes like a bagel, but the texture just isn't correct - far more bread like than proper bagel toothiness.

So why not make bagels in a pressure cooker?
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#46956 - 07/23/09 04:01 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: charliebutters]
Jgreene Offline
member

Registered: 07/17/08
Posts: 171
Oeny,

I think they would be called Upstate New Yorkers, you know, the ones who are trippin over fire hydrants, walkin' real slow and looking up, riding the grey line bus, eating sbarro pizza and mcdonalds, and limiting themselves to the times square area.

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#46957 - 07/23/09 04:21 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: Jgreene]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5962
Loc: 212 land
I think they would be called Upstate New Yorkers

So those in this state living south of Westchester County may be called Downstate New Yorkers.
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#46958 - 07/23/09 04:27 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: yorick]
Timbo Offline
addict

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 694
Loc: Delaware
Originally Posted By: yorick

The reputation of NYC bagels, breads, and pizza are derived from one thing: its water, most of which comes from the Catskills.


Although I do not recall if NYC water was tested specifically, Cook's Illustrated came to a similar conclusion in an article a year or so ago - that is, the most important ingredient in making bread with perfect taste and texture is the water.

I get excellent results with our Pur-filtered tap water and the recently popular "No knead" w/dutch oven technique. Suitable results without the time investment of other methods. Requires significant rise time, but the prep time is nothing.

TS
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#46959 - 07/23/09 04:27 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: charliebutters]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5962
Loc: 212 land
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#46960 - 07/23/09 05:03 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: oenophore]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Originally Posted By: oenophore
You can get the water chemistry right, but the elevation takes its toll. The result looks and tastes like a bagel, but the texture just isn't correct - far more bread like than proper bagel toothiness.

So why not make bagels in a pressure cooker?

That's not where the problem lies. I believe it's possible to do it right at higher altitudes, but it would take major experimentation, as there are lots of interrelated variables:
proofing time and temperature
punch-down during proofing - how many times? how frequently?
gluten level
yeast level
boil time & temperature (boiling point at our house is 201F)
resting time
bake time/temperature - convection or still?
....of course there's also:
water pH
water mineral content and composition
...and about a dozen other variables.
_________________________
- Marc

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#46961 - 07/23/09 05:07 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: oenophore]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
great thread drift!

there's a benny's in Hoboken. Artrio's in NYC is awseome, nothing like listing to the blues and some NY fuckin pizza!
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#46962 - 07/23/09 05:24 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: talus]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
In NY there are only two pizzerias that are members of the VPN:

La Pizza Fresca Ristorante
31 East 20th Street between Park Ave. So. & Broadway

Naples 45
The MetLife Building
200 Park Ave.

The who? VPN??
Verace Pizza Napoletana Americas

Originally Posted By: VPN
In 1984 a group of pizzaioli, led by Antonio Pace, sought to preserve the identity and integrity of Napoletana pizza. From this struggle with the Italian government was born the association Verace Pizza Napoletana or Vera Pizza Napoletana (VPN).

While forms of foccacia had been around for centuries, it was in Napoli where tomatoes were first placed on round discs of bread and cooked in brick wood fired ovens sometime in the late 1600's. Mozzarella also made its debut on pizza in Napoli in the mid 1800's if not earlier. While it is widely believed that the classic Napoli style pizza, the margherita, was invented by a pizzaiolo in 1889, there is written evidence that a pizza with tomatoes and mozzarella was already being made in Napoli much earlier.

It is this history that Signore Pace and others are trying to preserve through the VPN.

On May 16, 2007 Settebello Pizzeria was certified by the President of the US Chapter of the VPN, Peppe Miele, as only the 16th member in the United States. Settebello is the only certified member in the state of Utah. We will always strive to preserve the art of pizza making as it has been done in Napoli for over 200 years.



Member Charter:

ASSOCIATION OF "VERACE PIZZA NAPOLETANA"

"Verace Pizza Napoletana" is an international non-profit association. The objectives of the association are the following:

To cultivate the culinary discipline of the Neapolitan pizza, with its requisite preparation, ingredients and manner of cooking.

To protect and promote the authentic Neapolitan pizza and as a consequence, the association members who fulfill the culinary requirements and characteristics of the Neapolitan pizza.

To defend the origin of the authentic pizza and the tradition of the pizza as it began in Naples, Italy.

To designate by the Verace Pizza Napoletana certification mark those pizzerias which respect the culinary tradition of the Neapolitan pizza and where such pizza may be enjoyed.

THE CULINARY DISCIPLINE OF THE "VERACE PIZZA NAPOLETANA"

The certification mark of Verace Pizza Napoletana is reserved exclusively for those establishments whose pizzas fulfill the following standards:

"Verace Pizza Napoletana" must be made from the following raw ingredients:

Flour
Natural Yeast, Yeast of Beer
Water

The pizza dough must be worked with the hands or with a mixer approved by the Association's committee. After rising, the dough must be shaped with the hands and without a rolling pin or any mechanical means.

The cooking of the pizza must take place on the surface of the oven and not in any pan or container. The oven must be a wood burning oven and structured in a bell shape and of special brick with the floor of the pizza oven constructed of volcanic stone. The oven must be fired with only wood and kindling.

The classic pizzas and their respective basic ingredients are the following:

Marinara (Napoletana): Tomato, olive oil, oregano, and garlic.
Margherita: Tomato, olive oil, grated Parmesan, and fior-di-latte or mozzarella.
Ripieno (Calzone): Ricotta, fior-di-latte or mozzarella, olive oil, and salami.
Formaggio e Pomodoro: Tomato, olive oil, and grated Parmesan

All types of pizza are agreeable to basil leaves.

Variations of pizzas are recognized if they are informed by the Neapolitan tradition of pizzas and are not in contrast with the rules of gastronomy, with judgment reserved to the Association's committee.

The pizza, when eaten, should present the following characteristics: soft, well cooked, fragrant and enclosed in a high, soft edge of crust.
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#46963 - 07/23/09 05:31 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: yorick]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
Originally Posted By: yorick
[The reputation of NYC bagels, breads, and pizza are derived from one thing: its water, most of which comes from the Catskills...a blind-study - as objective as one could hope for - testing all the water they could get their hands on to determine the best one for baking...I've heard tales of transplanted bakers and pizzamen shipping NYC water to their bakeries and restaurants out west.


I guess if you get used to drinking chlorine you might just think water ain't right without it!

As for baking anyone think chlorine does something good?

Locally (here) people have similar stories about Atlantic City water and Atlantic City (Italian) bread. Great bread, but I think the stories are mostly BS.

Added: But you've given me so many great excuses as to why my pancakes are not up to my usual high standard when camping!


Edited by Mark Heyman (07/23/09 05:57 PM)

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#46964 - 07/23/09 05:31 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: oenophore]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
Originally Posted By: oenophore


Well, they're talking about Neapolitan style pizza, which is different from NY fucking pizza. La Pizza Fresca in the Flatiron district has some awesome Neapolitan pizza (and a great wine list).

Edited to add:
Originally Posted By: MarcC
In NY there are only two pizzerias that are members of the VPN:

La Pizza Fresca Ristorante
31 East 20th Street between Park Ave. So. & Broadway

Naples 45
The MetLife Building
200 Park Ave.

The who? VPN??


Ah. I'd always wondered what they meant when they said they were certified authentic. At any rate, great pizza, but certainly not the same as your greasy cheese dripping must be folded NY fucking pizza.


Edited by quanto_the_mad (07/23/09 05:35 PM)
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#46965 - 07/23/09 05:41 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: quanto_the_mad]
Jgreene Offline
member

Registered: 07/17/08
Posts: 171
For those in the know "true" NY pizza is a napoletana hybrid basically. Nothing like that greasy NY fucking street corner garbage that out of towners, Brooklynites and Noob Yorkers think is New York Fucking Pizza.

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#46966 - 07/23/09 05:51 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: Jgreene]
TerrieM Offline
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
I admit - I always thought the street corner garbage was what people were talking about when they blathered on about New York Fucking pizza.

And I have not considered myself a New Yorker since about the moment I opened my mouth after arriving and having the taxi driver ask "So, where are you from?"

From the moment I stepped off that plane on that cold February afternoon, til the moment I opened my mouth to that Taxi guy, I thought I was in *that special class* but those fucking native New Yorkers just really know how to shove their sense of superiority down your throat.....

In case I ever thought it would change, I've gotten the Native New Yorker smackdown on average about once every 3 months since then("So, where you from?"), and it's been 21 or 22 years(can't remember if I came in '87 or '88).

I've got no problem with my not being a fucking New Yorker!

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#46967 - 07/23/09 06:04 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: TerrieM]
Jgreene Offline
member

Registered: 07/17/08
Posts: 171
"New Yorkers really know how to shove their sense of superiority down your throat"


You'll get used to it at some point.........

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#46968 - 07/23/09 06:32 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: Jgreene]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
Originally Posted By: Jgreene
For those in the know "true" NY pizza is a napoletana hybrid basically. Nothing like that greasy NY fucking street corner garbage that out of towners, Brooklynites and Noob Yorkers think is New York Fucking Pizza.


LoL... of course a New York Fucking Pizza is the greasy pile of cheese crap you find at the local Ray Bari... ask anyone on the street!

I did say my favorite NY style was from Totonno's, the one in Murray Hill specifically, I never get down to Coney Island.
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#46972 - 07/23/09 08:43 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: TerrieM]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5962
Loc: 212 land
I've got no problem with my not being a fucking New Yorker!

But since you live in the City, you must be a celibate New Yorker. smile
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#46974 - 07/23/09 08:48 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: oenophore]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2675
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Pizza talk at 5PM just is not fair.

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#46975 - 07/23/09 08:53 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: chip]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
I think that only reason NYC was divided up into sections (Manhattan, Bronx, Brooklyn etc..) is so they can have teams competing for the biggest asshole award instead of individuals.

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#46976 - 07/23/09 09:51 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: MarcC]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2359
Loc: Boston
Originally Posted By: MarcC
Originally Posted By: oenophore
You can get the water chemistry right, but the elevation takes its toll. The result looks and tastes like a bagel, but the texture just isn't correct - far more bread like than proper bagel toothiness.

So why not make bagels in a pressure cooker?

That's not where the problem lies. I believe it's possible to do it right at higher altitudes, but it would take major experimentation, as there are lots of interrelated variables:


Yeah, I got to being able to make damn good bagels living in Boston. Since moving out to Denver, I've tried three or four times, and given up. Of course the good Jewish Baker near me seems to have no problem making it work, so maybe once I move further away from him I may have to try again.

GO

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#46977 - 07/23/09 09:52 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: quanto_the_mad]
oenophore Offline
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Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5962
Loc: 212 land
How about a new controversy: which is a better accompaniment for pizza, wine or brew?
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#46978 - 07/23/09 10:04 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: oenophore]
strat Offline
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Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4242
pizza or new york fucking pizza?

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#46979 - 07/23/09 10:05 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: oenophore]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2675
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Brew. End of story. Period.

Now which brew is a much better discussion. Right now I'm pretty fired up over Yards in Philadelphia. They make a porter from George Washington's recipe that is truely, er, presidential.

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#46984 - 07/23/09 10:34 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: oenophore]
TerrieM Offline
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
Originally Posted By: oenophore
I've got no problem with my not being a fucking New Yorker!

But since you live in the City, you must be a celibate New Yorker. smile


....Is it THAT obvious!!!???

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#46986 - 07/24/09 12:13 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: TerrieM]
Jgreene Offline
member

Registered: 07/17/08
Posts: 171
Celibate? That dog of yours always seems to have a smile on his face.

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#46987 - 07/24/09 12:17 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: chip]
Jgreene Offline
member

Registered: 07/17/08
Posts: 171
"Now which brew is a much better discussion. Right now I'm pretty fired up over Yards in Philadelphia. They make a porter from George Washington's recipe that is truely, er, presidential."

I'm so tired of these relic recipes. Like that crappy dog fish head that on tap at the BrauHaus that was King Tut's recipe or some other gimmick. That's why I hang at the country inn, no gimmick tap beers.

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#46988 - 07/24/09 01:14 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: Jgreene]
TerrieM Offline
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
Originally Posted By: Jgreene
Celibate? That dog of yours always seems to have a smile on his face.


That's pretty revolting to infer I'd abuse an animal like that, and pretty much outs you as creepy, that you'd write such a thing.

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#46989 - 07/24/09 01:42 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: chip]
pizzaman Offline
journeyman

Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 59
New Haven pizza puts generic New York and even Italy's pizza to utter shame.

If you disagree, you are simply uninformed. I don't know why it's true, but it is.

Also many and maybe most of the really major jerks in NYC aren't from there. They're from Texas, Ohio, etc...

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#46990 - 07/24/09 02:29 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: Jgreene]
MarcC Offline
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Posts: 3532
Do you realize that if you take the permutation of all the beer ingredients, you come up with something on the order of 4 billion recipes? It's little surprise that there will always be some new brew that someone is raving over.
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#46992 - 07/24/09 02:54 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: MarcC]
Jgreene Offline
member

Registered: 07/17/08
Posts: 171
Do you realize that if you take the permutation of all the beer ingredients, you come up with something on the order of 4 billion recipes? It's little surprise that there will always be some new brew that someone is raving over.

True, It just seems that the idea of "ancient recipes" is a fad now and there are so many good beers that have been around for hundreds of years. That being said I like the St Bernardus ABT12 for a new brewery.

"That's pretty revolting to infer I'd abuse an animal like that, and pretty much outs you as creepy, that you'd write such a thing."

Terrie, lighten up girl, it's only abuse if the animal is wimpering.

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#46995 - 07/24/09 03:17 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: Jgreene]
pizzaman Offline
journeyman

Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 59

"There was a big high wall there that tried to stop me;
Sign was painted, it said private property;
But on the back side it didn't say nothing;
That side was made for you and me."

--"This Land is Your Land:" Asch Recordings

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#46996 - 07/24/09 09:56 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: pizzaman]
oenophore Offline
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Posts: 5962
Loc: 212 land
And if it's not private property, the sign says authorized personnel only.
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#46997 - 07/24/09 10:04 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: pizzaman]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5962
Loc: 212 land
If you disagree, you are simply uninformed. I don't know why it's true, but it is.

Pizzaman comes right out and states the attitude of several posters here.
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#46998 - 07/24/09 11:13 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: oenophore]
AOR Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/27/04
Posts: 392
This thread is much ado about nothing (no, not a show about nothing). Come to the Philly/South Jersey area for the best pizza in the northeast corridor. smile

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#47000 - 07/24/09 12:00 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: AOR]
TerrieM Offline
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
"And if it's not private property, the sign says authorized personnel only."

Or else "Welcome to Tourist Trap" - Please Pay at Gate"

Or else "Danger - Contaminated Area - Biohazard Risk"

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#47002 - 07/24/09 12:28 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: TerrieM]
RangerRob Offline
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Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
J you're in rare form again. By the sound of it, you were born and raised in Manhattan. If not then you're putting up a lot of hot air. Everyone knows the real reason Manhattanites eschew the outer boroughs of NYC. It's because your metrosexual asses get beat down and sent packing everytime you set foot in Brooklyn. I'm talking about the Brooklyn I grew up in, not the gentrified latte sipping nightmare it's become. You wouldn't dare walk through my neighborhood in the 70's I remember sneaking onto the train with my buddy when we were 8 and going to see all those big buildings across the river. When we got there we realized that all the people there were from someplace else. It's kind of like Alaska. No one who lives in Manhattan is actuallty from Manhattan. They're all from the suburbs of Conneticut, or New Jersey, or Illinois or something. If you root for the Yankees, you ain't a real New Yorker.

Oh and by the way, the single best consistently excellent pizza in New York City is on Eliot Ave and 69th street, near Juniper Valley Park in Middle Village. He just makes pizza, nothing else, and it is Da Bomb! We would intentionally find ourselves there around lunch whenever our survey crew was anywhere in central Queens.

RR

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#47003 - 07/24/09 01:31 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: Jgreene]
Timbo Offline
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Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 694
Loc: Delaware
Originally Posted By: Jgreene

I'm so tired of these relic recipes. Like that crappy dog fish head that on tap at the BrauHaus that was King Tut's recipe or some other gimmick.


Don't be talking down on that Delaware beer. mad I'll have to whip you upside the head with a Raison d'Etre or something. grin

TS
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#47004 - 07/24/09 01:43 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: pizzaman]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
Pizzaman, do you own any property? A home maybe? No? How about a car, a computer, climbing gear, anything at all? Shouldn't you sell all of your stuff and give the money to the state if you want to walk your talk?

Similarly, wherever you live, be it in a house or apartment, in order to walk your talk, shouldn't you welcome everyone to the backside of your front door? Not just when you invite them in, but whenever they want to come in and stay for a while.

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#47005 - 07/24/09 02:10 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: Kent]
empicard Offline
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Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2954
Loc: LI, NY
jgreene, born at einstein medical center in the bronx, lived there till i was 3. ha.
i think this might hold the record for best thread drift ever.
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#47013 - 07/24/09 03:43 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: empicard]
chip Offline
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Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2675
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Living at Einstein until you were 3 years old? Dude, how was the food?

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#47017 - 07/24/09 07:36 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: chip]
pizzaman Offline
journeyman

Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 59
Therapy for the uninformed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Haven-style_pizza

Actually, what little I own is available to loan. If you need to borrow my car, just ask.

Britons own lots private property, but access laws there are quite civilized, unlike those of the U.S.

The Mohonk Preserve/State question is separate, but MP inadvertantly enables PIPC's irrational climbing ban...& only justifies its existence with marginal & often sentimental arguments.

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#47018 - 07/24/09 08:20 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: pizzaman]
oenophore Offline
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Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5962
Loc: 212 land
Britons own lots private property, but access laws there are quite civilized, unlike those of the U.S.

Apparently you deem easement for unwanted visitation of private real estate civilized. I strongly suspect most here would disagree.
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#47019 - 07/24/09 08:30 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: Timbo]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5962
Loc: 212 land
Don't be talking down on that Delaware beer. I'll have to whip you upside the head with a Raison d'Etre or something.

Oh boy, there's material here for a thread of its own, but we seem set on setting a deviation record on this one, so I'll reply here. I glad there is, after so many years, an eastern brewery that can rival the best of the west. I've tried only the Palo Santo Ale and the 60, 90 and 120 Minute IPAs. The first two of these are, in my opinion, superb. The 90 Minute stuff is superb too, but too malty to be an IPA. If it didn't have such a godawful sweet finish, the 120 Minute IPA would be the best ale I've ever had, and I've tasted many.
Tastes, of course, differ and I wouldn't even disparage those who prefer Bud to microbrews.
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#47020 - 07/24/09 08:53 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: oenophore]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
So much good stuff out there these days!

Couldn't get Aric to simpy say you should try X.

Recently been happy drinking

http://www.stonebrew.com/beers/

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#47021 - 07/24/09 10:31 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: oenophore]
pizzaman Offline
journeyman

Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 59
These laws in the United Kingdom and a fair number of other places have been a great benefit to climbers.

You can read about them here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam

The U.S. seems to eventually catch up with other countries on these matters -- but it often takes many decades.

May be the actual half-dozen people to whom you refer don't particularly care for the the public interest. But the public generally comes around.

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#47022 - 07/24/09 10:44 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: pizzaman]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
Gabe, how hard is it to make good bagels?

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#47023 - 07/24/09 10:48 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: pizzaman]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5962
Loc: 212 land
The Wiki link is interesting. Note that the right to roam exists in nations where the vast majority of its citizens are considerate. Imagine US rednecks on your property.
You use a cute rhetorical gambit in characterizing adoption of a law similar to that of some nation(s) as catching up with that nation. Imagine catching up with North Korea.
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#47025 - 07/24/09 11:40 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: pizzaman]
MarcC Offline
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Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
You might want to reread that wiki entry slowly and in detail this time. A lot of practical aspects where the "right to roam" exists effectively undermine your basic thesis.

Quote:
The act specifically establishes a right to be on land for recreational, educational and certain other purposes and a right to cross land. The rights exist only if they are exercised responsibly.

Austria

The right to roam in Austria, particularly in forests and mountainous areas, is called Wegefreiheit. Since 1975 the right to roam in forests is guaranteed by Federal law. In particular, walking, running, hiking, and resting are automatically allowed to the public in most forest areas. However, horse riding, bike riding, and camping are not, and may only be practised with the land owner's permission. A large proportion of the forest area in Austria is owned by government bodies such as the




Edited by MarcC (07/24/09 11:42 PM)
Edit Reason: Copy/paste bug fucked up another post.
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#47026 - 07/25/09 12:15 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: MarcC]
pizzaman Offline
journeyman

Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 59
U.K. outlawed slavery in 1807, enacted womens sufferage 1872, national health care in 1946, banned death penalty in 1965.

Civilized societies eventually move in this direction... U.S. has apparently averaged a 50-years+ lag, though the weird dumb & nasty element lately seems ascendant.

I do think UK's limits on private property rights are quite civilized, and have benefitted individual rights for climbers etc...

Obviously separate question from MP/State...

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#47027 - 07/25/09 02:03 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: pizzaman]
empicard Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2954
Loc: LI, NY
Big fan of the stone brews. good stuff.
yum.
and chip, no i didnt live at einstein till i was 3.
funny story though. hospital was kosher. my dad (himself jewish at the time) snuck a chicken parm hero in for my mom (who was also a nurse who worked there) because the food was so terrible.
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tOOthless

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

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#47028 - 07/25/09 02:52 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: pizzaman]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
Pizzaman, you have no property to contribute yet nonetheless you are perfectly happy to socialize everyone else's land for your recreational benefit. That's rather self serving, don't you think?

And your argument that if MP were given to the PIPC then the PIPC would have to allow climbing on all of their land is just silly. The PIPC could just as easily ban climbing on all of their new land, and would be perfectly happy to arrest those who chose to climb anyway.

Interestingly though, there is one good argument for making the MP either state or PIPC land, Kelo v New London. As long as the MP land is privately owned, as it is now, it's potentially subject to an emminent domain taking to promote econonmic activity or some other perceived public good. If it becomes state or PIPC land it will no longer be vulnerable to an emminent domain taking to promote development.

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#47029 - 07/25/09 03:03 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: Kent]
pizzaman Offline
journeyman

Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 59
I'm also in favor of public health. SO golly you got me on that one.......It's totally self serving to favor public interest as a member of the public.

If PIPC acquired MP, the notion that they could ban climbing there is not insightful.

PIPC can ban climbing at Minnewasaka precisely because MP permits climbing at Trapps & Nears. Eventually, this will all change.



This in fact could not occur, and PIPC would be forced to adopt a rational policy toward climbing.


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#47030 - 07/25/09 03:15 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: pizzaman]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
Health care is certainly in the public interest. Climbing access is not health care however, and the argument that climbing access is in the public interest, or somehow analogous to health care, is another silly idea.

As for banning climbing, the PIPC can, and does, on their current 100,000 acres, just as the Mohonk Mountain House does at Skytop.

Do you think the sense of entitlement some climbers have has anything to do with these closures? Specifically, do you think the real reason Skytop is closed is because of an inability to obtain adequate liability insurance?

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#47031 - 07/25/09 04:12 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: Kent]
pizzaman Offline
journeyman

Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 59
Recreational access is in the public interest. Perhaps you don't grasp the concept.

"Sense of entitlement" = Psychobabble.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychobabble

Yeah PIPC bans climbing. Not because of insurance. They can do this only because MP permits climbing.

Whe PIPC and MP merge (someday) a more rational policy will quicky evolve.



Edited by pizzaman (07/25/09 04:23 AM)

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#47032 - 07/25/09 04:42 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: pizzaman]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Originally Posted By: pizzaman
Yeah PIPC bans climbing. Not because of insurance. They can do this only because MP permits climbing.

You do not have a single rational bit of evidence or logical argument that this is true. Especially so in light of the fact that PIPC has historically banned climbing on all their land. Land that isn't remotely near the MP and land that they held before the MP existed.

Your pointless trolling on this topic has become massively boring. Let's get this thread back to beer, pizza, and bagels.
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#47033 - 07/25/09 06:10 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: MarcC]
pizzaman Offline
journeyman

Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 59
Nah, is pure rationality. PIPC acquired Minnewaska relatively recently, so invoking "history" is red herring.

Yah see, the state CANNOT turn away 500,000 climbers, or "climber days" or whatever MP claims.

Simply impossible. Yeah that's rational.

When MP and PIPC merge some day (my prediction), the state will immediately be faced with FACT that limiting climbing to tiny fraction of its property is environmentally and fiscally unsound. Yeah rational.

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#47034 - 07/25/09 11:13 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: pizzaman]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5962
Loc: 212 land
Pizzaman, perhaps you are to be lauded for your spirited defense of what you believe to be a right, but it seems you have no sympathizers or converts, at least in this thread. Perhaps this controversy is to be put in the agree-to-disagree category. Better yet, let's hope Obama invites us to the White House for a beer.
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#47035 - 07/25/09 12:46 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: pizzaman]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
Climbers make up a tiny percentage of recreationists. So again, although recreational access may be in the interest of the public, that doesn't mean climbing access is. Further, such access on private property, in this country, is a privilege, not a right.

Regarding the 500,000 climbers, what kind of drugs are you taking PM? Your comments about the PIPC not being able to stop climbers from climbing on their land are reminiscent of the humorous "we shall overhang" thread on rc.com a while ago. Somehow, it's hard to imagine throngs of climbers marching in the streets of New Paltz or Gardiner, staging sit-ins at the uberfall, being carried away in handcuffs, to protect their "right" to climb wherever they want.

There are many things in the world worthy of protest: the wars in Iraq and Afghansitan, children dieing of malnutrition and disease, 50 million uninsured here in the US, and, of lesser stature, the abuse of government power in eminent domain and partial regulatory takings, for example. But Pizzaman, throwing the gauntlet down because you can't climb wherever you want, again, makes you seem silly.

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#47036 - 07/25/09 12:56 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: oenophore]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2675
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Kent, I have worried about the emminent domain issue with the ridge for some time. The current trend away from respecting private land ownership is disturbing at the least.
I see no economic advantage for this current presidency to so strongly push socialized healthcare for the trillion plus price being floated when we can simply pay the 29 billion it would cost to insure those truely unable to afford it. I do medical charity work daily, as do many physicians, and I can tell you that the vast majority without insurance do so out of choice. England and many other countries took a large step backward with nationalized care. When the average salary of an orthopedist in France is less than 100K US, do you think the doc fixing you leg is the brightest and best? My father-in-law became a naturalized US citizen because of what he could no longer tolerate in Sweden, a country he does truely love. I have treated a number of people who came here for care rather than waiting 12 months before they could get an MRI and/or surgical repair. Simply put, this appears to be the first step toward as much socialization of our country as possible. Get excited for lots of mediocrity.

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#47037 - 07/25/09 01:09 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: chip]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards


Chip, that you do daily medical charity work makes you my new hero.

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#47039 - 07/25/09 01:16 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: Kent]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2675
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Now, if only I could get out of here enough to climb like a hero! Oh well, there is always beer.

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#47040 - 07/25/09 02:26 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: chip]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
And pizza.

And sometimes bagels.

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#47045 - 07/25/09 07:19 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: quanto_the_mad]
pizzaman Offline
journeyman

Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 59
Since its a "hypothetical," there is no "proof" that if and when state acquires Trapps & Nears, politics & mgmnt needs & perhaps deed restrictions, would ensure expanded climbing.

No "proof" that Obama is a alien, either. One is left to consider the likelihoods.

Re. the other stuff: There are normally trade-offs in social progress, and some interest groups inevitably object.

To suggest, however, that public access isn't in the public interest -- is perhaps an ineffective argument.

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#47049 - 07/25/09 10:42 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: RangerRob]
chazman Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/07/02
Posts: 944
Originally Posted By: RangerRob

Oh and by the way, the single best consistently excellent pizza in New York City is on Eliot Ave and 69th street, near Juniper Valley Park in Middle Village. He just makes pizza, nothing else, and it is Da Bomb! RR


This is good stuff as well... Veloce pizzeria

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#47050 - 07/25/09 10:52 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: chazman]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5962
Loc: 212 land
The my-favorite-pizza-is-better-than-yours banter can go on ad nauseam.
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#47054 - 07/26/09 07:58 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: oenophore]
pizzaman Offline
journeyman

Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 59
New Haven's population is 120,000 or less, with maybe a dozen extraordinary, really world-class "Apizzas" including the four that are highly documented.

NYC is supposedly eight million people

The math is crazy...Yeah, you can GET a decent pie in New York City of course...fine... But if you're in New Haven.....

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#47056 - 07/26/09 10:40 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: pizzaman]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5962
Loc: 212 land
Do any of you pizza mavens know of a place in the City that goes all the way -- all organic ingredients, whole wheat flour, low fat cheese from undoped cows? All I have in my neighborhood is an outlet that offers whole wheat pizza.
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#47060 - 07/26/09 03:45 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: oenophore]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Pizza face, are you related to Camille? Minnewaska doesn't allow climbing because it is forst and foremost a Park Preserve. A completely different land classification than a regular state park. The priority is not public recreation, it is land preservation. Recreation is secondary to that. Look it up. Secondly, you need to stop referring to the Park as the State. You are confusing the hell out of people. It is owned and operated by PIPC, not the state. Whether you want more climbing or less climbing, these are the facts.

RR

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#47062 - 07/26/09 03:52 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: RangerRob]
Jgreene Offline
member

Registered: 07/17/08
Posts: 171
RangerRob,

So by that definition RR, you would then have to say that the Mohonk Preserve is more interested in recreation and less about Preservation. In other words recreation first, preservation second?

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#47063 - 07/26/09 03:59 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: Jgreene]
Jgreene Offline
member

Registered: 07/17/08
Posts: 171
And speaking of preservation, I seem to remember you being a proponent of prescribed burns, how is that preservation? Seems like silly unscientific humans looking at a blip in the history of an ecosystem and trying to "manage" it based on this.

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#47065 - 07/26/09 06:56 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: Jgreene]
pizzaman Offline
journeyman

Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 59
I wouldn't get too hung up about it, Rob.

PIPC bans climbing everywhere, not just at "Minnewaska State Park Preserve" as it's officially known. It's owned by New York State. Doesn't belong to PIPC any more than Catskills belong to the DEC.

But bureaucrats do whatever the politics require. If they were forced to deal with Trapps, PIPC "corporate culture" would change for the better.

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#47070 - 07/26/09 09:29 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: pizzaman]
Jgreene Offline
member

Registered: 07/17/08
Posts: 171
"But bureaucrats do whatever the politics require. If they were forced to deal with Trapps, PIPC "corporate culture" would change for the better."

Based on what?

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#47071 - 07/26/09 09:38 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: Jgreene]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Originally Posted By: Jgreene
"But bureaucrats do whatever the politics require. If they were forced to deal with Trapps, PIPC "corporate culture" would change for the better."

Based on what?

So far pizzaface's entire argument is "it will happen because I believe it will". Your basic troll.
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#47072 - 07/26/09 10:51 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: MarcC]
pizzaman Offline
journeyman

Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 59
PIPC "corporate culture" for the most part doesn't understand climbing and generally wants climbers to go away.

If they had to manage the Trapps & Nears, they would lose that luxury, and would need to adopt a more grown-up attitude. Organizations are sometimes defined by what they do, and shaped by what they do. Seems obvious...

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#47073 - 07/26/09 10:56 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: MarcC]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
J, I didn't mention anything about The Mohonk preserve. As far as land management policies, one has little to nothing to do with the other. Also, I don't have a stance on prescribed burns, at least not one that I am willing to discuss here. If you wanna buy me a beer at the Brau, we can talk all about itthere though!!!

Pizza, you sound like a man with definite ideas on how things should be. I would like to hear more about them in a forum easier to talk one on one. Like say...at the base of the cliff sharing a route. Same goes for you Ivan...err....JGreene.

RR

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#47074 - 07/26/09 11:14 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: Julie]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2359
Loc: Boston
Originally Posted By: Julie
Gabe, how hard is it to make good bagels?


Down there at low altitude, not too bad. Could send you my recipe if you like.

GO

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#47077 - 07/27/09 01:19 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: GOclimb]
Jgreene Offline
member

Registered: 07/17/08
Posts: 171
"Minnewaska doesn't allow climbing because it is forst and foremost a Park Preserve. A completely different land classification than a regular state park. The priority is not public recreation, it is land preservation. Recreation is secondary to that."

RR,

Based on the above ststement, do you feel that the preserve's mission is preservation first, recreation second or vice versa?

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#47079 - 07/27/09 01:41 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: Jgreene]
pizzaman Offline
journeyman

Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 59
I don't doubt you're correct RR.

But why is climbing also banned at all the other PIPC "regular" state parks?

Does PIPC ban it in Minnewaska for one reason and all other places for a different reason?

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#47081 - 07/27/09 03:23 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: pizzaman]
TerrieM Offline
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
Actually, I believe PIPC has begun work on a new Master Plan, and the GCC provided input as to climbing within Minnewaska. They requested input from the climbing community last year and provided a sample letter people could refer to asking the PIPC to expnad climbing access within the park.

If I recall correctly, the gist of the request was for "allover climbing access," with the belief that this was unlikely to be accepted, and then could work from there(as opposed to listing the crags that are attractive and having THAT whittled down).

It was also noted that the Mater Plan work, which has to go through a bereaucratic maze, would be a slow-moving project(year/s and not months).

Anyway - carry on....

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#47083 - 07/27/09 03:38 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: MarcC]
empicard Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2954
Loc: LI, NY
this is really some guerilla marketing for some new pizza joint, isnt it?
_________________________
tOOthless

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

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#47089 - 07/27/09 12:24 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: empicard]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
J and Pizza, those are both really good questions. Ones I don't actually know the answer to. I can guess though. I would say the Mohonk Preserve's mission is both preservation and the opportunity for recreation. As far as Minnewaska and PIPC, I would guess they want to protect the relatively rare cliff environment in the the areas under their control. The big question that needs to be answered before we can have any meaningful dialogue is this......do climbers have an inherent right to climb on every cliff they want to? Does every cliff, no matter it's ecological or climbing significance, have to be available for our recreational enjoyment. Once we can unanimously answer that, then we can engage in meaningful dialogue as to exactly what should be open. So there's the next thread drift...do we have that right inherently? That answers both questions, because it is a question of recreation vs. preservation.

RR

RR

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#47091 - 07/27/09 12:47 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: GOclimb]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
Originally Posted By: GOclimb
Originally Posted By: Julie
Gabe, how hard is it to make good bagels?


Down there at low altitude, not too bad. Could send you my recipe if you like.

GO


Please do!

BTW, Oene: Scott & I live a block away from the best pizza I've ever had (and I grew up 12 mi. from New Haven, and got schooled there, pizzaman; been to the City, too). It's all-fresh, local, etc everything. Today's leftover lunch will be 1/2 a pie with figs, gorgonzola, carmelized onions, and something green. And oh, the crust.


Edited by Julie (07/27/09 03:28 PM)
Edit Reason: I do not live with Oene.

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#47096 - 07/27/09 01:42 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: Julie]
TerrieM Offline
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
There was a restaurant near me years ago that made a pizza with carmelized onion, goat cheese, roasted potatoes and bacon - ooooohhhh, how I still crave that pizza.

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#47097 - 07/27/09 02:08 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: TerrieM]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
Speaking of pizza, last week I was on 287 and had to swerve to avoid a large plastic triangular shaped object in the road. About 1/2 mile later, I saw two cars pulled over, one was a beater car with some wires hang out the window, and the other with some damage to the front end.

I wonder if Domino's covers that kind of damage for its delivery people?
_________________________


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#47098 - 07/27/09 02:47 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: quanto_the_mad]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5962
Loc: 212 land
Oene, Scott & I live a block away from the best pizza I've ever had

Did you write that I'm a part of a menage a trois?
_________________________

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#47104 - 07/27/09 04:22 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: TerrieM]
pizzaman Offline
journeyman

Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 59
PIPC bans climbing & bouldering on the Palisades, Breakneck Ridge, Storm King Mountain, Hook Mountain, Bear Mountain/Harriman State Park, etc.

They do it to "preserve the environment" at Minnewaska, according to Rob, & dunno why elsewhere -- probably "scientific expert-type" reasons that we are ill-equipped to understand.

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#47115 - 07/27/09 10:23 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: TerrieM]
earthfamily Offline
stranger

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 11
the preserve is about preservation before anything else. yes there have been things carved out for our access like the parking lots and a few more trails, and facilities to manage the property and the ones who use it, however most everything else in the preserve has been maintained since before anyone knew what rock climbing was. some parts of the preserve were built with hard labor, no machines. undercliff was built by men with horses. the terrain would be too difficult to build on to without seriously risking the cliff or other areas. things like that go unnoticed but that road has had serious sweat put into it by the preserve staff over the years to keep it the same and unchanged. the idea is to save it just how it is forever, so generations down the line see the same thing you do today, the same way. is that possible? i hope so. if the preserve was about recreation before preservation there would be more facilities, more parking, more camping, more access to everything. a day with full lots is the carrying capacity. more would start rubbing the land and causing the need for growth. the preserve will try hard not to build on what is existing, however that is not always possible. land in question for being developed is like a taking rescue from the pound. the preserve always seems to have something going on with getting another piece of property. nothing is finalized but the preserve is in the process of buying land in rosendale. this land would of been demolished, but in the preserves hands it will never be touched. preservation comes at a cost. i think they do a pretty good job

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#47117 - 07/27/09 11:37 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: earthfamily]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5962
Loc: 212 land
The Preserve began in 1963; roads were built and people climbed there well before that.
_________________________

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#47119 - 07/28/09 12:16 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: oenophore]
TerrieM Offline
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
Though the post above isn't as precise as it could be, they don't actually say the Preserve built the carriage roads; rather that "road has had serious sweat put into it by the preserve staff over the years to keep it the same and unchanged."

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#47121 - 07/28/09 01:56 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: TerrieM]
pizzaman Offline
journeyman

Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 59
"Carrying capacity" is pseudo-science term when applied to recreation.

It properly measures an area's capacity, to sustain, or "carry" livestock. But people doing recreation don't eat grass.

Can't be measured or defined in this context, and is therefore utterly meaningless term, sometimes used to justify stuff about "preservation" in the Gunks.

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#47122 - 07/28/09 02:28 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: pizzaman]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Pizza, are you implying that human activity does not cause damage to the land? A look at any well used trail or herdpath, or camping area.....cliff base and top for that matter, should show otherwise. I'm not a researcher, or scientist, so I don't know to how to quantify it numerically, but there IS carrying capacity for any type of human activity on any type of land. if it goes past that capacity, observable damage is done.

Yes, the observable damage is a speck in geologic time. In the long term Mother Earth will care not what we did. She will erase all of our mistakes within another geologic blip. The only reason we care about the "damage" is because it affects us, and how we interact with and see the landscape.

But there is carrying capacity for every activity, and those figures are well documented I'm sure.

RR

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#47123 - 07/28/09 02:54 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: RangerRob]
pizzaman Offline
journeyman

Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 59
RangerRob:

See page 32 of DEC Dix Mt. Unit Management Plan.....It's surprisingly detailed and specific on this issue.......Here is tiny bit of a very illuminating and broad discussion of the term "carrying capacity."

Hope link works, 'cause you should read more before you pull that trigger or call for re-enforcements....
http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/lands_forests_pdf/dix1.pdf

"As defined in the range sciences, carrying capacity means

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#47124 - 07/28/09 02:58 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: pizzaman]
pizzaman Offline
journeyman

Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 59
"the maximum number of animals that can be grazed on a land unit for a specific
period of time without inducing damage to vegetation or related resources (Arthur Carhart National
Wilderness Training Center, 1994). The concept has been modified to address recreational uses as well;
however, its basic assumptions proved to be false."the maximum number of animals that can be grazed on a land unit for a specific
period of time without inducing damage to vegetation or related resources (Arthur Carhart National
Wilderness Training Center, 1994). The concept has been modified to address recreational uses as well;
however, its basic assumptions proved to be false.

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#47125 - 07/28/09 03:20 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: pizzaman]
pizzaman Offline
journeyman

Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 59
Edit function busted........sorry....

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#47126 - 07/28/09 04:12 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: pizzaman]
Ian Offline
member

Registered: 08/25/01
Posts: 106
Loc: NYC
I've always felt that NYC has great pizza (and bagels and sushi, etc.) because of population. In any NYC neighborhood (I've lived in Fresh Meadows, Astoria, and Bayside) there are several pizza shops in every commercial area. There are always new ones popping up. If they're not good, or polite enough, or cheap enough for the population, they're gone. You can't survive in NYC with mediocre, people will just walk to the one on the next block. I find this is even true with sushi (where I don't think the water quality argument has the same sway as it does with bagels). I could walk a few blocks from my apt. down Bell Blvd. near 73rd ave. and get really good sushi at very reasonable prices. Now, where I live in Tacoma, WA there are a few great sushi restaurants, but they are the expensive, exclusive type of restaurants that sushi joints used to be in NYC 20 years ago. As for pizza and bagels out in Tacoma, fuggedaboutit!

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#47127 - 07/28/09 04:32 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: Ian]
pizzaman Offline
journeyman

Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 59
Tacoma???
Washington lead the espresso craze because of so many nutty insecure hicks who want to show they're now "sophisticated" like San Franciso or something.

In early 1990s, every gas station in the state sold horrible espresso.....Far worse than average Starbucks crap. And people paid for and drank the stuff!!!

It's like when Mao told the Chinese to make steel in the 50s, and they wrecked all the steel in China by ripping it out everwhere and melting it down in their backyards into useless junk.

I lived in Washington in the 1970s and pizza "as we know it" was unavailable. Many zombie hicks there with peculiar snobbery.....

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#47128 - 07/28/09 09:49 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: pizzaman]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5962
Loc: 212 land
I live in Tacoma

According to your profile here Ian, your location is NYC.

And Pizzaman, I'm amused by your mini-essay on the Washington boutique coffee phenomenon. I've never heard or read of San Francisco envy there.
_________________________

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#47133 - 07/28/09 02:13 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: oenophore]
TerrieM Offline
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
Actually, I just read the book written back in the late '90's by the CEO of Starbucks, and it details the Peet's/Starbucks SanFrancisco/Seattle coffee thing pretty well(so far as I can tell).

I don't know as I took away from that section anything about SF envy. It seemed more about coffee afficionado mixed with entrepreneurship.


But - back to pizza. Has anyone got some suggestions for making ersatz pizza on a Coleman-type camp stove, without any special cooking utensils? I am talking a small fry pan with lid, the 2-burner stove, and food ingredients.

Somewhere in between tomato sauce on an english muffin and made from scratch yeast-based crust heated on a stone pad....

Time from start to finish should be like 15 minutes.


Edited by TerrieM (07/28/09 02:17 PM)

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#47137 - 07/28/09 05:14 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: Ian]
andrew Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 1816
Loc: Denver, CO
Reharding the effects of water on sushi, unless you only stick to sashimi, I think the rice quality and recipe is nearly as important as the fish quality, and water does make some difference there.
_________________________
This isn't an office. It's Hell with fluorescent lighting.

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#47139 - 07/28/09 07:38 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: andrew]
pizzaman Offline
journeyman

Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 59
Washington was (is?) backwater...& certain nouveau riche booster-types were embarrassed by this...
They looked to California as model of urbanity...with love/hate...

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#47140 - 07/28/09 08:10 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: pizzaman]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5962
Loc: 212 land
Washington was (is?) backwater...& certain nouveau riche booster-types were embarrassed by this...
They looked to California as model of urbanity...with love/hate...


Is this coeval with Bill Gates's shunning of Silicon Valley to set up shop in Redmond?
_________________________

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#47142 - 07/28/09 09:07 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: oenophore]
pizzaman Offline
journeyman

Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 59
Not sure. I lived there mostly in mid-70s & MSFT was almost, if not quite completely unheard of.

The kinda weird, conformist craze for espresso came around 1990, and mostly died out in a few years.

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#47151 - 07/29/09 05:32 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: pizzaman]
pizzaman Offline
journeyman

Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 59
Guthrie lyric:

"There was a big high wall there that tried to stop me;
Sign was painted, it said private property;
But on the back side it didn't say nothing;
That side was made for you and me."

--"This Land is Your Land:" Asch Recordings Volume 1, track 14.

Rembember Dylan's hairpin turn?

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#47152 - 07/29/09 09:43 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: pizzaman]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5962
Loc: 212 land
Twice repeated in one thread -- a record for Gunks.com but not a laudable one.
_________________________

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#47153 - 07/29/09 12:10 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: Ian]
Frank Florence Offline
addict

Registered: 01/05/00
Posts: 528
Loc: moved to Bend
Going with the best thread drift option:

In my teen years, living on Long Island in the 60s, I commuted to my parochial high school on public buses. This involved a transfer and short lay-over in Hempstead, giving me the opportunity to consider scarfing down a slice of Italian pie sold at the "Terminal Pizza." The owner's English vocabulary was practically defined by "sliceannaCoke, dollafifty." The pie was great but the combination of the establishment's name and the green substance in the mayo jar on the counter always made me a little uneasy.

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#47154 - 07/29/09 12:49 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: pizzaman]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
Pizzaman, based on your various statements, you don't seem to be concerned with the public interest, only your own.

Quote:
Since one must pay a somewhat high fee to climb at Mohonk Preserve, it's annoying that a number of businesses in area that depend on climbers don't chip in with even small contributions to the preserve.

You're mad at local vendors who, for some unspecified reason, you think are not making contributions to the Mohonk Preserve, which is presumably, at least from the above comment, your preferred charity.

Quote:
PIPC can ban climbing at Minnewasaka precisely because MP permits climbing at Trapps & Nears.

You're mad at the Mohonk Preserve, and think it should cease to exist, because you think, by some as yet unexplained logic, that the existence of the MP enables PIPC to ban climbing on its land.

Quote:
May be the actual half-dozen people to whom you refer don't particularly care for the the public interest.

You're mad at the landowners in the Nears and along the Millbrook Ridge Trail, who have closed their land in recent years. Rather than being grateful to them for having not developed their land for decades while others in town and elsewhere along the ridge have developed willy nilly, and rather than being grateful for having had unfettered access to their land for all these years, you whine about not having access now.

I might add these landowners are certainly in good company in denying public access to their land. A number of individual landowners, some of whom are promiment members of the climbing community, deny public access, as does the MP in places, and PIPC in most places, and of course there is the grand daddy of all closures, locally at least, the Mohonk Mountain House closure of Skytop. Oh, and let's not forget that The Nature Conservancy also does not allow climbing on their land.

Quote:
To suggest, however, that public access isn't in the public interest -- is perhaps an ineffective argument.

There are many landowners, members of the public, who don't want just anyone to be accessing their land. That public access to private land is in the public interest, is a self serving and simplistic argument.

So really Pizzaman, it seems as though you think you should be able to climb wherever you feel like, and you will make any rationalization to define what you want, unfettered access to climb wherever you want, as a public interest.

The funniest part of your rants against closed land is your continual quoting of Woody Guthrie as if, in addition to writing about the plight of oppressed, abused, and indigent migrant farm workers, you think Guthrie was somehow also writing about what you perceive as your "right" to recreate wherever you want.

I think it was Alicex4 who once sarcastically quipped "wanted...more solipsistic climbers".




Edited by Kent (07/29/09 03:16 PM)

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#47157 - 07/29/09 02:09 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: empicard]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5962
Loc: 212 land
Hey, didya know that the first written reference to pizza was in 997?
_________________________

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#47161 - 07/29/09 05:54 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: pizzaman]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
No comprende

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#47164 - 07/29/09 07:12 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: RangerRob]
pizzaman Offline
journeyman

Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 59

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#47169 - 07/29/09 08:21 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: pizzaman]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532

84 pages.
I'm not reading that.
So far, Kent has the best summary of your trolling.
_________________________
- Marc

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#47171 - 07/29/09 09:18 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: MarcC]
pizzaman Offline
journeyman

Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 59
Marc: Not reading stuff helps keep things simple. Good goal for climbers.

Kent:
1) MP annual report, unsuprisingly, lists contributors. Sorry you're uaware of this. Why is a gripe about freeloaders so mysterious and objectionable?

2)If PIPC administered what is now MP, they couldn't sustain a climbing ban, and would need a more rational, system-wide policy. To me, this is just self-evident politics and management. But okay, maybe not to you.

3) Access is in the public interest. Again, self-evident to me; not to you. And that's okay. Societies' attitudes tend to progress over time. (See England and link I posted).

Bruce Springsteen has lots to say about Guthrie's song. You would find his commentary uninsightful, which is also fine.

Perhaps you're among the unfortunates of a certain age who long ago drank the Reagan Kool-Aide. I don't know.

Do you think Obama is a citizen?

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#47172 - 07/29/09 10:39 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: pizzaman]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
Pizza.....

1) Local companies contribute to the community in many ways. That some don't contribute in the way you would like in no way means they are "free loaders" or "skin flints".

2) & 3) What's self-evident to some is out in left field to others. That's why people discuss things.

Regarding what I might, or might not, find insightful about Springsteen's words on Guthrie, please see comment below about ad hominem attacks.

About Kool-Aid, I generally avoid Kool-Aid of any flavor.

On Obama, given what little major outlet news analysis I've seen and read, it seems the only people paying attention to the Obama citizenry debate are probably also hiding their little tin foil hats somewhere.

And Pizza, generally speaking, the degree to which one resorts to ad hominem attacks is often inversely proportional to the strength of one's arguments.


Edited by Kent (07/29/09 10:45 PM)

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#47174 - 07/29/09 11:44 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: Kent]
pizzaman Offline
journeyman

Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 59
KEN:
It was unfair of me to suggest you supported Reagan and might now sympathize with the "property rights" wing of....you know...."those people....."

I attempted to clarify my points. But can certainly see how it may be they're simply incomprehensible to you.

Thanks for pointing this out! Very helpful.

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#47175 - 07/30/09 12:05 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: pizzaman]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
Pizza, if you must know, I voted for Reagan in 1980, as did many other so called "Reagan democrats" because Carter's foreign policy was a disaster, interest rates on mortgages were over 20%, and the economy was in the tank. I don't remember voting in '84 or '88. In '92 I voted for Clinton. I campaigned for Nader in '96, Gore in '00, Kerry in '04, and no one in this last election cycle. My political loyalties are best described as unaffiliated, which is how I'm registered in New York.

You haven't stopped your ad hominems, you're just trying to be cute about it, and in doing so you're making my point. I mean really, what does the fact that I voted for Ronald Reagan nearly thirty years ago have to do with the subjects at hand? Nothing. That's what you want to draw attention to though, because the positions you have put forth are intellectually flaccid.

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#47176 - 07/30/09 01:35 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: Kent]
pizzaman Offline
journeyman

Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 59
Hey, sorry again about mentioning Reagan. I swear I didn't know... Honest!!

Look, if you don't mind that local businesses that rely on the MP don't support MP, then fine. And you don't think public access is in the public interest, then that too, is a pretty clear viewpoint to which you're entitled.

Allow me to explain my point about how MP inadvertantly enables Minnewaska climbing ban. Unfortunately this requires an eggregious violation of the priciple of short posts on a message board, and ensurs that few people, if any read this post.

Do understand these thoughts are somewhat apart from whether MP is a good organization. Or for that matter, whether potential climbing outside Trapps and Nears has any real significance or value.

But if hypothetically, the MP didn't exist, the likely alternative administrator would be PIPC. I'd call it a certainty.

Yes there are other other alternatives, but one can at least point to several recent instances where this has happened, I think most obviously SW margins of Minnewaska, as well as the "Save the Ridge" property.

IF MP decided, or needed, to fold the tent (inconceivable in near term), they might include deed restriction requiring that climbing continue on the property.

But even assuming they didn't, the current climbing population is obviously far from politically powerless. (The shame is they are so passive).

The place is absolutely lousy with ivy league lawyers, newspaper-of-record publishers, etc., ad nauseum.... who, if totally screwed to the wall...WOULD seek to influence state politics if there were an inclination by PIPC to shut down Trapps climbing. To say nothing of local chamber of commerce types, etc....

PIPC higher-ups know this perfectly well. They wouldn't pick that fight. They would have no motivation. The top folks would endanger their jobs in doing so.....

So that's as best as I can say why I think it's a given that if MP went away, climbing would continue and PIPC would step in.

Now, let's say MP goes away and PIPC has Trapps & Nears & realizes it's current climbing policy is inapplicable to new territory.

A management policy invariably includes some justification. Politicians and the do-nothing bosses demand it of policy writers.

The justifications are always essentially "makin' stuff up" as Sarah Palin might say. But they need some apparent rationale.

Some do say the current Minnewaska climbing ban is based on "Preservation." But the PIPC does ban climbing everywhere else in its parks, based on what it believes is a mandate to ensure public safety.

If they suddenly permitted thousands of climbers on PIPC lands, the "public safety" rational is weakened --- or one might say instantly destroyed. So it's back to the drawing board...

Okay, still, the new policy is "Climbing permitted at Trapps and Nears but almost no place else" because it's "bad for the environment."


But the "environment" at Trapps and Nears shows degradation from too many climbers. PIPC land managers are charged with "protecting the environment."

If preservation is goal, then some effort to enable dispersal --or at least make it not impossible-- would be rational and responsible.

"Trapps & Nears are Less Worthy of Protection"

But many, perhaps most people would say Trapps & Nears are the "climax" Gunks environment, and therefore most worthy of preservation.....Etc.......

So PIPC policy, of necessity, changes and evolves.....


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#47177 - 07/30/09 03:53 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: pizzaman]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
So Pizza, back to my last query. It sounds fairly obvious that you believe all cliffs should have legal climbing access. Is this accurate? Do you think we as climbers have a fundamental right to climb anything we wish? Do you think any environmental concerns or preservation goals outweigh a climbers "right" to adventure?

The only reason I ask is that before current climbing restrictions on PIPC property could be lifted, this very question needs to be addressed by the broader management types.

Personally, I don't think we have a fundamental right to conquer every cliff we want. I think we all lose when we don't consider environmental factors in determining who climbs where. Sometimes the climbing potential of a cliff isn't worth the impact that will be caused by unregulated climbing access. Just my $0.02

RR

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#47179 - 07/30/09 05:12 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: RangerRob]
pizzaman Offline
journeyman

Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 59
Good question. But I don't entirely accept the premise.

With a few exceptions (birds, bats, whatever) I haven't seen anything to suggest that the environmental impacts of climbing are very significant.

And "preservation," I think is a purely sentimental and unrealistic goal for land managers.

Minnewaska, for example, has vast tracts soon to be completely destroyed by the hemlock adelgids. There is some evidence that acid rain has severely damaged its lakes. Not so long ago, it had lots of chestnut trees -- which are now gone.

All of this is due to human activity that will continue to change the environment.

Attempting to "preserve" land in an eternally unchanged state by banning a few climbers or whatever, is just futility.

The Dix document I've mentioned suggests that rather than "preservation" the practical goal of land managers should be managing "acceptable change."

This isn't defined by science unfortunately, but rather by social consensus.

As for simple "private property rights" and the right to climb, this too is consensus, and I think rules in England and elsewhere amply demonstrate that these values need NOT be in fundamental conflict.



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#47182 - 07/30/09 11:20 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: pizzaman]
Jgreene Offline
member

Registered: 07/17/08
Posts: 171
"With a few exceptions (birds, bats, whatever) I haven't seen anything to suggest that the environmental impacts of climbing are very significant. "

Talk about ignorance.........Ya know Pizzadouche, I am handing over my crown as king douche to you, your arguments are lame, your logic blows and I bet you will not exceed 150 posts before you even bore yourself (142 to go) and check off this forum (and hopefully planet).

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#47186 - 07/30/09 01:09 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: Jgreene]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
okay so using preservation goals was a bad choice of words. I guess I'm trying to distill it down to a simple question. Do you think climbers have an INHERENT right to climb on any cliff they want to? Forget about the environmental impacts for a moment and let's just discuss this question.

RR

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#47189 - 07/30/09 03:42 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: RangerRob]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
UIAA says--and it's hard to disagree with this:

"Coupled with respect for natural surroundings, free access to the alpine wilderness areas is a fundamental right. Sufficient possibilities to exercise the sport of rock climbing can only be guaranteed if this right to freedom of movement remains intact
and is restricted only in isolated, well-founded cases when agreed as being absolutely necessary."

http://www.theuiaa.org/upload_area/files/1/to_bolt_or_not_to_be_en.pdf

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#47191 - 07/30/09 03:59 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: pedestrian]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
First, the UIAA represents a very specific user group. Second, note that it says "alpine wilderness area". The areas under discussion are neither alpine nor wilderness.

Private land in a non-wilderness area, like the land Pizza seems to be talking about, is a different matter.

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#47193 - 07/30/09 05:16 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: Kent]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
So then why did the UIAA misapply this statement in a document that is primarily about the controversy over bolting sport crags?

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#47194 - 07/30/09 05:47 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: pedestrian]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5962
Loc: 212 land
The way to melt an iceberg is to have some of the posters on this thread placed on that iceberg and have them discuss this issue.
_________________________

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#47196 - 07/30/09 06:18 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: oenophore]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
Also Nate, the UIAA is based in Switzerland, and they are referring to climbing in Europe. But perhaps they think the "right" to access for climbing is a universal one. I wish them luck with that.

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#47199 - 07/30/09 06:23 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: Kent]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5962
Loc: 212 land
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of routes on rock faces."
_________________________

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#47200 - 07/30/09 06:29 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: oenophore]
TerrieM Offline
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
hahah

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#47201 - 07/30/09 06:38 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: TerrieM]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5962
Loc: 212 land
"That to secure these rights, preserves are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governing board."
_________________________

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#47202 - 07/30/09 06:44 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: oenophore]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
"We shall overhang".

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#47207 - 07/30/09 08:07 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: Kent]
Steve Knowlton Offline
stranger

Registered: 05/20/09
Posts: 6
Loc: Nyack NY
Originally Posted By: Kent
"We shall overhang".


With this thread, more like hung-over.

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#47221 - 07/30/09 11:16 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: Steve Knowlton]
empicard Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2954
Loc: LI, NY
Rob, No comprendO.
_________________________
tOOthless

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

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#47227 - 07/31/09 04:24 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: empicard]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Como?

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#47228 - 07/31/09 05:52 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: RangerRob]
pizzaman Offline
journeyman

Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 59
In the past month, I've had four pizza in Italy (various northern cities), three in New Haven, two in Austria and one in Stamford Conn.

I'd think anybody would agree based on this limited sample it's:
1) New Haven
2) Italy
3) Austria
4) Stamford

New Paltz would be at the bottom.
Honestly am getting sick to death of pizza.


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#47230 - 07/31/09 10:35 AM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: pizzaman]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5962
Loc: 212 land
Honestly am getting sick to death of pizza.

But you're stuck with the moniker. Are you fed up with that too?

"There was a big pizza there they tried to serve me;
Top was painted with sauce and cheese;
But on the back side I didn't see nothing;
That side was made for you and me."
_________________________

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#47234 - 07/31/09 01:13 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: oenophore]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Actually, for Hick pizza, Rinos in the Cherry Hill plaza does a damn fine job if you ask me. Certainly not in the same league assome of the pizza joints in NYC, but for New Paltz pizza, you can't beat it.

I count 7 pizza shops in New Paltz.

Counting is so much fun boys and girls!

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#47249 - 07/31/09 02:53 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: RangerRob]
Jgreene Offline
member

Registered: 07/17/08
Posts: 171
Chefs on fire is ok in high falls also.

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#47320 - 08/05/09 07:51 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: Jgreene]
Ian Offline
member

Registered: 08/25/01
Posts: 106
Loc: NYC
Yeah, moved to Tacoma, WA about a year ago (Aug. 2nd, 2008 to be exact.) Should change my profile, but really, you know how many internet profiles people create in the course of let's say 10 years? Me neither, but the fact is I never even bothered to think about all the sites I may have inaccurate info on. That's something to ponder - people with inaccurate internet profiles - but not one for this thread, which so far hasn't drifted.

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#47321 - 08/05/09 07:58 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: Ian]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5962
Loc: 212 land
Shape up, Ian!
_________________________

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#50830 - 03/18/10 12:03 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: RangerRob]
charliebutters Offline
addict

Registered: 11/11/01
Posts: 510
Loc: accord
pizza barn opened a few months ago on 209 in accord, ogranic pizza, boylans on tap and a view of the creek.very tasty!

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#50839 - 03/18/10 07:26 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: charliebutters]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4275
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Originally Posted By: charliebutters
pizza barn opened a few months ago on 209 in accord, ogranic pizza, boylans on tap and a view of the creek.very tasty!


thread drift much??

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#50843 - 03/18/10 09:08 PM Re: Gunks Private Property [Re: Mike Rawdon]
charliebutters Offline
addict

Registered: 11/11/01
Posts: 510
Loc: accord
Originally Posted By: Mike Rawdon
Originally Posted By: charliebutters
pizza barn opened a few months ago on 209 in accord, ogranic pizza, boylans on tap and a view of the creek.very tasty!


thread drift much??


all the way to pizza night

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