All this talk about restricted climbing acces recently has got me thinking about all the legal places to climb on the ridge. Here is a list, I think it is complete, of all the legally accessible climbing areas on the Shawangunk Ridge.

1. Shawangunk State Forest- small east facing cliff band south of route 52

2. Witches Hole State Forest- Short but steep cliff band immediately behind Eastern Correctional Facility on Rt 209 in Napanoch

3. Chevchenko- tucked away crag with some bolted and trad lines off of Foordmore Rd in Kerhonkson

4. Peterskill- We all know where this is

5. Millbrook- We all know about it. Biggest, baddest crag on the ridge. How many of you have done any routes on it? Let's not get into whether the cliff itself is actually private land or not. As of now it is currently aceptable to climb there.

6. Near Trapps- We all know it

7. Lost City- You've probably heard of it. That's all I'll say.

8. Trapps- we all know it

9. Bonticou- sunny, winter time destination.

10. Outback Slabs- large slabs with some lines on it that can be seen from Clove Rd

11. Sun Bowl- look north as you leave New Paltz for the cliff. See that orange rock? Ain't nothin easy there

12. Northeast Crag- Okay, I made up the name for this because I don't know the real name. cliff line that parallels Springtown Rd. Adenture climbing for sure. Is quite tall in spots...140'+/- I think

13. Triple Right- Also known as High School Hill. The furthest extension of the northeast crag.


That's it as far as I know. If you know of any other legal climbing access areas on the ridge, add to the list. So far there are 13 seperate, accessible cliffs. How many have you climbed at?

I think this is a list something like Empicard was asking about recently. Although I've left the exact locations vague, just to annoy people. There has to be some effort on your part, right?

RR

Rob Mecus (aka Ranger Rob),

At least two of the places on your list are not legal to climb on and the "Northeast crag" area has been publically talked about by the Mohonk Preserve as an area where they do not want foot traffic. Plus you failed to mention The Cereus Way Crag owned by Paul Friberg, and the Small Crag owned by Janette of the GCC.
Millbrook is largely private and off limits but has some sections that are owned by the mohonk Preserve (a bit north of Realm of the 5th class climber) I believe. Why would you say Millbrook is all legal? What is your basis? Because I have NEVER heard that!

"5. Millbrook- We all know about it. Biggest, baddest crag on the ridge. How many of you have done any routes on it? Let's not get into whether the cliff itself is actually private land or not. As of now it is currently aceptable to climb there."

Mecus,

This very statement is enough to question it's legal status. You state it's legal and then say "Let's not get into whether the cliff itself is actually private land or not." Why? Is that not the point of whether a crag is off limits?

You also say "As of now it is currently aceptable to climb there."

What is your basis for this statement?

The only truth is that Millbrook is the biggest and baddest crag.

Thanks, Rob. One winter visit many years ago to the sun bowl convinced me that it was way above my level.

Rob,

Thanks for posting this. I rented a cottage in Kerhonkson for a couple years and I've never heard of Chevchenko (which isn't that surprising. I never talk to anyone :-)

I'm going to go check that place out. Again, sincerely, thank you very much.

J, please don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say it was ALL legal. My basis for saying that it is currently acceptable to climb at Millbrook is based on the fact that many people do, no one stops them, it has been going on for a lot of years, and there are unportested guidebooks telling people they can climb there. Historically, it is acceptable. I believe I did mention that some parts of the cliff may be on private property, or may be illegal. I didn't feel like breaking out tax maps and sectioning off what climbs are illegal or legal in the post. That's why I made the disclaimer.

As of now, you can go to the end of the Millbrook Carraigeway, walk up to the rap anchor, rap down, and climb some routes and you will not be questioned by anyone about your activities. Of course, you know this answer already. You're just trying to stir up some stupid argument with me that frankly isn't as much as the lint from my butt crack.

As far as the Northeast Crag. It is, I assure you, perfectly legal to climb on. It rests fully on Mohonk Preserve property until such time as it runs into either the AI wall to the south, or the Conglomerate to the north. There is plenty of quality accessible cliff between the two. Sorry, but you're just ill informed

I failed to mention Pauls cliff, (which is known as the Comglomerate, not Cereus Way) because it is private property, and everyone except you seems to accept that.

RR

Excuse me, but Rob's list was for places where it was legal to climb. why would my pathetic little piece of rock end up in that list? It's not open to the public (and I doubt the public would really want to bother with it).

Jannette

Thanks, Rob, that's pretty cool to have listed.

Oh, and for the record, over the six years or so that I frequented the Gunks, I never made it beyond the Trapps and Nears. For the limited amount of time I had in the area (driving from Boston on weekends) the potential of just those two crags still felt practically limitless.

If I'm ever back there for an extended time, though, I'd like to check out some other places. If for no other reason, just to experience the different flavors.

GO

It's a shame that this thread even exists. The GCC has a "complete" inventory of Ridge climbing sites they assembled a few years ago, but won't share with the climbing community.

BTW Bonticou is not just for winter climbing. Much of it faces SW and is shaded in the AM.

And isn't Giant's Workshop on the MP?

Totally forgot Giant's Workshop. Add that to the list as #14.

This is a place I've known from word of mouth, never read of it -- I've even tried to climb something there. I wonder; is it Giant's Workshop or Giants' Workshop?

It's nice of you to start a list Rob. However, what of the unqualified listing of the Nears? And also, re Millbrook, that the individual owners don't run up there and post it, and spend time policing it every weekend, in no way means their land is open to climbing.

If you're going to include Giants' Workshop, what about that cliff where Red Tape is located? Or C***** *******? Or some of the obscure craglets along LLR?

It's a good point Kent. There is private property in the Nears, as well as unquestioned legal climbing access. Adding Millbrook was done because it is historically acceptable in that no one ever challenges it. Is it illegal if the landowner doesn't make an effort to stop it, and has never pressed trespassing charges? Kind of like adverse possession with regards to recreational access? Who knows. I listed it because it is a commonly accepted climbing area. I put the qualifier in there to let people know that there may or may not be private property issues with it. It wasn't my intention to make it a focus of the thread.

Marc, You have knowledge of route names that I don't, and acronyms I am not familiar with. I'm sure there are a hundred individual walls with old time names tucked in and around the preserve. What about the one by the S turn going out to Overcliff Rd? Anyone know what the name of that one is? If you know of any another dinstinctly seperate crag, please list it!!

RR

Mike, if they've never shared it how do you know it exists?? Hmmmmm?????

add to list bayards, table rock and also the one that Alpine Endevors guides at not skytop.

all cliffs are legal until you get busted.

LLR = Laurel Ledge Road?

Thanks for the added remarks RR. This is a great list that over time will become perhaps quite useful for climbers. Maybe Evan can stick it to the top.


Talus....

How 'bout bank robbery, embezzlement, tax evasion, burglary, and theft? All legal 'til you get busted? I need the cash.

I've been told the way it works in practice is that access is legal 'til it gets posted. Once posted, those crossing the line are subject to arrest, even if the "no trespassing" signs have been torn down in the interim.

Shevchenko is now part of Minnewaska and is not legally open to climbing.

C'mon, RR. You slipping?

Sounds like part of Climbikstan.

I didn't want to let all the cats out of the bag! No, I never knew the name of the craglet at the S-turn, if indeed it had one. Q-T-M did pick up on Laurel Ledge Road. The others are Eagle Cliff (which I'm pretty certain is on MMH property) and Cope's Lookout. There are a number of old Ramano routes on that one. (Hell, there are a number of old Ramano routes on most of the cliffs! The Beckey of the Gunks.)

nm

Well, there goes Pizzaman's theory re. PIPC and additional climbing terrain. Pffft! Right out the window.

Chris, that's not what I was told when I asked officials at the park some 2 or 3 years ago. I was told that any activity allowed prior to transfer is still allowed. Maybe they have since changed that policy, but not that I am aware.

RR

Hell, there are a number of old Ramano routes on most of the cliffs! The Beckey of the Gunks.

When it comes to Romano country, don't forget Palmaghatt Ravine and Hamilton Point. I don't know about their "legality."

Shevchenko was never legal to my knowledge. That was certainly my understanding from OSI when we did the clean-up there, which we discussed when we took a tour of the lower crag with volunteers at the end of the day. One of the arguments we heard prior to the clean-up was why waste time on a closed crag.

Once it was turned over to Minnewaska, it remained closed. I spoke with Tom Cobb's successor about it and other potential crags when I toured Beacon Hill with him and Bob O'Brien, before the current management plan was being reconsidered.

The only legal climbing crag at Minnewaska is Peterskill. Ask Bob, Eric, or Jorge.

Interesting. I specifically remember a conversation with Tom Cobbs successor. It went something like this:

So what will be allowed down on Foordmore road now that you guys have it?

Basically anything that was allowed there before we had it. We're not going to change anything.

So, turkey hunting?

Yes

Climbing?

Yes.

Well hot damn, that's exciting!

Yep, we're not looking to make any changes right now.



I asked specifically so I could give people the correct information. I will have to check with the park again and refresh the correct info. Chevchenko may indeed come off the list. How sad. What a nice little crag. And so close to home!

Table Rocks definitely. Totally forgot that one. The Bayards, if I'm not mistaken, are completely private, and it has been known they we are not supposed to climb there. At least that has always been my understanding. Anyone know something different about that?

So with the addition of Table rocks we are up to 15.

I'd always heard that the Bayards were mostly choss and not worth climbing. Which may be true, but until recently I didn't know it was all private. I'm pretty sure neither the two new Willams nor the Swain mention the Bayards at all, so I don't know how any would know it was private. Well, aside from actually walking out there and seeing the signs.

A Preserve Board member told me 5-10 years ago that you could certainly climb at the Bayards.

Doesn't surprise me that Minne personnel would say one thing and do another, specifically say yes climbing will be allowed on Shevchencko, and then not allow it. "If it's not specifically provided for in the Master Plan, then it isn't permitted" is the bottom line that I have heard re. their climbing access. That's real close to a direct quote as it was explained to me years ago, actually.

What is the best way to access "12. Northeast Crag" and triple right? Since it was way to hot today for climbing I drove around looking for the best way to get to them but no luck...

to access both of these you have to follow Clearwater Road off the Table Rocks trail, then do a little exploring. Triple Right would be to the left of the end of Clearwater, and Northeast you would have to break right before the end of the road and come over top of it. It requires a topo map and a good sense of adventure. The easiest access points cross private property, but I don't advocate trespassing, so Clearwtaer Road is the best option. At a normal pace, you can be at the base of Triple Right in 45 minutes to an hour from Spring Farm. Northeast would take a bit longer.

RR

Thanks Rob!!! That's what I was looking for... When I went exploring all I saw was private property, which I want to avoid...

Rob,
Wasn't there an area just south of Rt 52 near Sam's Point that was opened to bouldering several years ago? I know that it's bouldering, but......

Ta,
Dizz

I remember smoking dope in Bachus and feeling on top of the world that the chick I just picked up had taken her happy pills.

Haaaa... fond memories... from a simplier time

And that relates to the topic how, exactly?

I have to be relevant? that sucks...

Yeah Dizzy, it's the Shawangunk State Forest that I mentioned in the initial post.

About access to Witch's Hole- I saw something that talked about hiking up from an access gate on Foordemore. I drove through there this weekend and saw that there was signage that said it was State Preserve lands... does Minnewaska extend down to Berme and Foordemore? My topo and google maps doesn't show it extending that far.

Google maps is not up to date with all the land acquisitions that have taken place. You can hike into the Witches Hole from Foordmore, which belongs toMinnewaska State Park. There is, however, a large chunk of private that seperates the two parcels and makes for through hiking a long proposition. You would need to follow the road off of Foordmore up to Napanoch Point, then follow the Smiley Road down to the Witches Hole State Forest.

RR

Why not hike up from Ellenville then, at the start of Smiley CR? and then drop down when above it?

Thanks RR- yeah, that's kinda what I was wondering.

Caver- yeah, that would seem like the obvious way looking at the trail maps. But I was curious after seeing an article that described hiking up from Foordmoore road and the signs along the road indicating it was State Preserve land.

Since my maps are a little old, I went looking around, and found out that you can now download USGS topo maps!

http://store.usgs.gov/b2c_usgs/
Click on "Map Locator" to the left. Search for the town or zoom around the map. Mark a point, and then click on the mark and that'll give you download options. (Note you may have to reload for the mark to appear; works fine on one machine, the other requires me to reload to get it to work).

The maps are PDF files. When you open it, it asks to download the TerraGo Software, which uses metadata in the PDF and allows you to get GPS and distance data interactively. Cool stuff.

Kent

Maybe you can do it for them?

In terms of the Nears, i finally made it around back and hiked along to see how wide the closure for private property was. I was pleasantly surprised/appalled to find out that it is about 10 ft (slight exageration) from the northbound private property signs to the ropes. Is that in fact marked correctly? I know you don't own that land but how many different owners somehow work their property into that sliver of dirt? When I read all the previous sturm und drang about the access issue, i kinda thought it involved more than a few feet.

Due to the extent of the trail relocations over bayards, I assume that the private holdings are more significant there.

thanks

Wow, cool! Free topos! Thanks for the link, Tabo.

Jannette

wombat, based on your 'research', how many and which climbs are effected in the Nears? I haven't even been down that far since the shutdown.

Thanks.

gunkie

i did not line them up but it starts after eenie meenie and ends about 50' later. I am not sure what climbs are in between but it does not seem like a significant loss, just a minor inconvenience on the approach. and awfully silly.

hypothetical question: in case of a rescue from the "far nears", can a rescue cross the rope or does it have to go over the top?

By The Toe Direct (5.9G *) and Catnip (5.6G **) are in the closed section. It's too bad, they were both really cool pitches.

As far as I know, the closure goes from Eenie Meenie to Nazgul, nine or ten routes.

In that case, all no trespass and private ownership issues are null and void. Just like when a fire engine will push your parked car out of the way (with attendant damage) if they need to.

Sure about that Marc? I'm guessing an emergency response agency causing damage to private property without the property owners consent could be grounds for a lawsuit.

RR

Well, I once saw a parked car with the windows smashed, and a fire hose running in one side, and out the other.

Basically it becomes an insurance issue. Sure, anyone can file suite for anything, but it rarely comes to that (source: a few friends who have worked in insurance claims for decades).

The point is, the emergency of a lift threatening situation overrides trespass and private property rights when time is critical. Same situation applies when, say, are chasing an armed and dangerous person who poses an imminent threat to public safety - thus you get told to stay inside when the police run through your backyard.

Really? Nice pic. The one I saw was in Bed-Stuy, and the car was also jacked, with no tires, no hood, and the stereo was missing.

now does the private property include the cliff or just to the base? could you traverse in or rapel down (to 1 ft above ground)and legally climb?

That vehicle is also parked illegally. That's not what we are talking about in this thread. Let's take Marcs scenario.

A hiker is injured below Millbrook Cliff, requiring an evacuation. The closest access point is a private driveway. Oh no!.....there is a car parked in the driveway preventing emergency vehicle access onto that private property. The responding agency uses their vehicle to push it off the road, and then does their thing, causing $1500 in damage to the car.

Okay lawyers, tell us if there is legal standing for the property owner to recover damages to their vehicle.

Regarding the closed land in The Nears.

First, the closed private land includes the cliff face and some of the top of the ridge. One of several Millbrook Ridge Trail reroutings is around this property on top of the ridge.

Second, some time ago the preserve ranger staff was given permission to access the closed land as they see fit in the conduct of their ranger work. Additionally, in the event of a medical emergency serious enough to necessitate a preserve ranger response, and/or an emergency room visit, access is allowed for anyone participating in the rescue, for the duration of the rescue.

Agreed Kent, but Marc brought up a very specific scenario, and I am wondering what the legal birds around here think about it.

I understand Rob. Didn't mean to respond to your post. I was instead responding to some other questions that popped up.

I would guess it depends on how the local laws are written. But consider that ESU vehicles have to slow or even stop at intersections due to lawsuits, seems that they can be held responsible for damages.

i know that some firefighters love that situation!

thanks Kent. Is there an online and accurate map of the various parcels and what is preserve or not?

There are tax maps online. Unfortunately, they're not accurate.

A further note. If someone is injured at the far end of The Nears, and needs to be littered out, the closest vehicular access is via a driveway on my land. It's quite a ways down the hill, and a series of zip lines would be required. If efficient teams were building and operating the zip lines, it might be the easiest and fastest way out though.

Hank, if you want to scope it out with me to see if it's a reasonable thing to do and perhaps prep for, lemme know.

You're willing to build ZIP LINES on your property, but you won't let us climb?

For a medical emergency, yeah.

Do you seriously not see the difference in intent and usage? Instead of talking about "climbing on private land", perhaps saying "being" or "setting foot on private land" might help with the point Kent et al are trying to make. It ain't about the climbing.

Although I don't agree with Kent on many aspects of the land issue (as should be abundantly clear from earlier throw-downs), this kind of obtuse nonsense just clouds the debate, hence my defense.

If it were a life-threatening situation I'd certainly understand if someone shoved my car out of the way to get help. But I'd also expect that, assuming I was parked legally and/or on my own property, that I'd not have to claim it on my own insurance or pay out of pocket. I wouldn't sue, I don't think, but I would expect someone to pony up for the damage. But it's interesting - I am not sure exactly WHO's insurance would cover that. The injured party? The ambulance or emergency response team?

thats what im here for.

Well, I'm all for obtuse nonsense! Now that we know what to expect....cool!

Kent is putting in a zip line attraction in the nears? Sweet!!

can we build a zip line across the disputed turf in the nears? then nobody would have to "set foot" on any land. Climb Eenie Meenie and anchor the other end to a tree on the other side! or a tyrolean traverse might be easier, but less fun! yee haw!

wombat, for the win!

A zip line from the top of Mainline down to the Brau would be the way to go.

i like it! Can we count on you to negotiate access with landowners for the installation? Probably best if you let others work with the Preserve...

Hahaha. I'd love to work with the Preserve on this....

can anyone please explain Single and Double Right to me? Is Arching Rocks legal? if so, theres another.

Crimpy, where is arching rocks? I've never even heard of that! Single and double right, as far as I have been led to believe, or the crags that one encounters as you go north on the old carraige way from Cragswood Rd. There are two distinct sections of cliff that offer good rock to climb. Double right I believe is private property. Triple right is way out on the Northern end of the preserve, and is also known as "High School Hill". You can see it from the rail trail.

Sorry to hear about you ankle and thanks for your response.
I have heard the area around the Rock Rift trail just north of mountain house lands referred to as "Arching Rocks" I believe other names may be in use as well.

Ahh, yeah I do know there are several small "crags" in that area, but have never heard any names given to them.

Rock Rift and Arching rocks are two different places.Arching rocks is over by giants. I believe that the preserve property goes to the carriageway on top of cliff.

Could you say where by giants?
Also is the big jeep looking road the one which leads to Chevchenko from Foordmore?

Thanks for the p.m's.
All legality aside, is there any history of climbing in Shingle Gully?

Long ago our college outing club would make pilgrimages up or down into SG. We always took gear and were always disappointed by the amount of wet dripping moss and, never uncoiled the rope. In retrospect, the environs there are very, very delicate and some of it is has long been off limits to even hikers. I'd not recommend climbing there.

Ditto what Rick said, but to answer your question...yes there is a history