Shout Box

Who's Online
0 registered (), 12 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Page 1 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 >
Topic Options
#47588 - 08/22/09 03:28 PM What fixed anchors do you want to see replaced?
ericontherocks Offline
stranger

Registered: 12/04/05
Posts: 13
Loc: New Paltz
At EMS we have just been given a large donation of older but barely used climbing gear. The previous owner had hoped we could put it to good use. We have decided that the best use for this equipment would be to donate it to the preserve in the form of anchor replacement.

I'm looking for some ideas on where people think that anchors or rap stations could use some fixing.


If you would like to donate any more gear to this cause bring it by the EMS Climbing School located next to the Mountain Deli

Top
#47589 - 08/22/09 07:53 PM Re: What fixed anchors do you want to see replaced? [Re: ericontherocks]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
Good question!

The mid-cliff anchor for Groovy/Ursula needs some real work. It's probably got decent slings on it; but if you look closely, something's *really* sharp back in there, and chews through slings *fast*. Some kind of padding would be good, or even a fixed piece that holds slings away from whatever's sharp.

There's an anchor above P1 of Splashtic that could use something fixed to supplement the dying twig that it is currently. The slung-constriction anchor that even the newest gb. refers to is no longer.

Some kind of attention or cleaning could be paid to the mess that is atop P1 of the Winter. There are rap bolts just 10 above and right, but that anchor ends up used anyway for Boldville and the Winter, and it's scary.

I never like the anchor on top of the Outsider/Voids. It's a bit ... small ... of a tree.

I'm not too familiar with this, but - there's some kind of nasty mank about one rope down from the top of Asphodel, which also somewhat serves? as some kind of anchor for Welcome. maybe someone else can comment.

Horseman and Sixish both have mid-pitch anchors that I always skip, but could perhaps? use a look, since people do use them.

Maria's first belay, in the base of the corner.

Top
#47590 - 08/22/09 08:01 PM Re: What fixed anchors do you want to see replaced? [Re: Julie]
chip Online   content
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2677
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Son of Easy 'O anchor scares me even to rap off. Yes, one could go to the top and split it into two pitches, but few do that. I'm really nervous someone is gonna go the whole way when that mank pulls. I don't see any need for bolts, as the crack seems good. Of course, that hasn't stopped anyone before.

Top
#47592 - 08/22/09 08:40 PM Re: What fixed anchors do you want to see replaced? [Re: chip]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Of course I'm a broken record, but I think we should be looking for opportunities to just get rid of anchors that simply aren't needed rather than replacing them (and I am speaking now of pitons, not webbing). People speak derisively (and, in general, incorrectly) about the decline of gunks climbing into the "sprad" category, but then by god they have to have their convenience anchors everywhere.

The anchors on the top of Son of EO is a case in point. It richly deserves to be completely removed. One can belay there with gear one places and then follow a 5.0 traverse right over to the rap bolts above City Lights.

Ditto the anchor over Winter. Climbers wanting to toprope there can easily place a gear anchor and then take it down and rap from the next-door bolts.

I'm pretty sure the Preserve is never going to get in the business of (re)placing pitons, and I'd be surprised if a commercial entity with deep liability pockets like EMS would allow its guides to do anything other than create and maintain anchors of commercial relevance to the guiding business, exactly what most climbers and the Preserve should, in my opinion, be emphatically against.

There's nothing the matter with discussing anchors here and elsewhere, but the actual work is, and ought to be, a job for individual climbers. Maybe EMS should put those donated pins out in buckets for that purpose.

But what we really need, in my opinion, is a structure like the Action Committee for Eldorado Canyon to help manage fixed anchors. Now that so many climbers are not competent to test and place pitons, the idea that anchor maintenance can be left up to individual climbers makes less and less sense.

Top
#47593 - 08/22/09 10:41 PM Re: What fixed anchors do you want to see replaced? [Re: rg@ofmc]
TrappDyke Offline
journeyman

Registered: 06/10/09
Posts: 80
It's good to see EMS helping out. However, I pose a different idea. How about a fixed gear vanishing effort along side of replacing the necessary anchors that get lots of use it. Personally I'd rather see a pair of bolts rather than a disgusting mess of slings or worse a dying tree. I think a good start would be the pins on Birdland and whats left of the pins on MF. Imagine how much more fun the crux would be on MF. The fixed wires on Birdcage should vanish too.

Top
#47594 - 08/23/09 12:29 AM Re: What fixed anchors do you want to see replaced? [Re: TrappDyke]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
Rich, I agree with you about the Winter anchor, and the SoEO anchor. I'd rather see both of them gone entirely - particularly the latter. Now that people TR the route with one 70, I keep expecting to hear about a lowering or rapping accident when someone who's seen it done with a 70, tries it with a 60. And that's leaving the TRing issue aside.

If we're going to mention fixed pro, I'll say it again: Classic's 2nd pin, bends under finger pressure, protects groundfall, protects 2nds from a big swing from the crux, is not at all protectable by gear. Yes, it's "just" a 5.7 .... learn to climb ... yadda yadda. There, we've had the whole conversation!

Top
#47595 - 08/23/09 03:30 AM Re: What fixed anchors do you want to see replaced? [Re: rg@ofmc]
Frank Florence Offline
addict

Registered: 01/05/00
Posts: 528
Loc: moved to Bend
Quote:
I'm pretty sure the Preserve is never going to get in the business of (re)placing pitons, ... what we really need, in my opinion, is a structure like the Action Committee for Eldorado Canyon to help manage fixed anchors


A Committee along the lines of the Eldorado group has a lot to recommend it. And RG is right that evaluating and replacing fixed gear isn't the Preserve's business, nor is it likely to become so. At the same time, it makes sense for any organized group replacing hardware to discuss their activity with the Preserve in the spirit of "friendly and productive dialogue" referred to in the Preserve's Climbing Policy. It also makes sense for such a group to listen to what climbers who routinely climb here say about gear that could simply be removed, without need for any fixed replacement. The increasing frequency that I see other climbers carrying HBs, little Tri-Cams, C3s, and Trango Ballnutz on their rack suggest the definition of the "usual" or "typical" Gunks rack includes some pretty sophisticated gear for dealing with the narrow placements that once made pitons much more essential.

Still, there are places where even modern clean gear just doesn't cut it. Julie's reference to the pin at the start of Classic is a good example. A climb's grade shouldn't be the deciding factor, but whether replacing old, existing pins would be beneficial by making climbing safer and more enjoyable. Given the number of ascents on Classic every weekend, the frequency of falls that happen in the opening moves, the potential consequences if the pin fails, and the likelihood of a 5.7 climber finding an alternative clean placement in that opening sequence, in my book makes the climb a prime candidate for repinning. Admittedly, pitons have a finite life and offer progressively diminished security. But I'd estimate that the majority of the rusty relics scattered throughout the Gunks are on the order of three to five decades old. Some are older, of course, and some younger, but the point is to consider how well pins generally hold up compared to, say, "permanent" wired nuts (admittedly, usually jammed unintentionally.) My experience is that the latter degraded to swedged tat in a matter of years, not decades.

So I agree that the need for a committee of some sort is there. The tactical question, though, is how it gets organized and under what auspices or authority (self-endowed?) it operates. It would be nice to see a group formed with some long-term vision rather than just some well-intentioned but spontaneous Climbers Replacing Ancient Pitons (CRAP.)

Top
#47604 - 08/24/09 05:26 PM Re: What fixed anchors do you want to see replaced? [Re: Frank Florence]
dstrickler Offline
stranger

Registered: 04/26/07
Posts: 23
TrappDyke's Post is right on...
There are alot of junk pins and gear fixed in the cliff where modern gear can be used to protect the move. But that is not always the case for fixed anchors in the Gunks.

The task of replacing and maintaining specific fixed anchors in the Gunks is a large and noble one, I commend those who carry out this work. It would help a lot if more folks got involved and took responsibility for the job. determining the correct course of action is the challenge...

Elimanating anchors which allow for the safe and efficient movement of climbing parties around the cliff system is not the answer. When removed these anchors cause frustration to those who count on there presence and will likely be replaced anyway Why? Because they work for the way that climbers use the cliff.

Climbing gear has changed in the last 30 years and so has climbing style. Topping out is not always the goal & in certain situations topping out opens up more risk to the climbers on the route and on the ground. Top roping is a method of training that leads to sport specific strength gains and improved techinque.

Manky anchors that are built from "Leaver" gear & undocumented components are not the materials for "Life Stations" in an area that gets the traffic the Gunks recieves.

Fact is:
Slings last a couple of years.
Gear lasts a couple years more if not stolen
Pins last 5/10 years, and when in dry locations 1 to 2 decades
Bolts last 20 to 70 years depending on the hardware used

The question is when can the Gunks climbing community come to a consenus about what the best choice for permant, safe, relaible fixed anchors is?
I know what my choice is...What is yours?

Oh yea & Minty needs a new anchor cause the tree has died.

Top
#47611 - 08/24/09 06:13 PM Re: What fixed anchors do you want to see replaced? [Re: dstrickler]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Originally Posted By: dstrickler

Fact is:
Slings last a couple of years.
Gear lasts a couple years more if not stolen
Pins last 5/10 years, and when in dry locations 1 to 2 decades
Bolts last 20 to 70 years depending on the hardware used

The question is when can the Gunks climbing community come to a consenus about what the best choice for permant, safe, relaible fixed anchors is?
I know what my choice is...What is yours?

Quite simply, bolts have the least impact and require the least maintenance. At this point in Gunks history, if they replace reappearing tat and mank, they're hardly depriving anyone of the trad experience.
_________________________
- Marc

Top
#47612 - 08/24/09 07:20 PM Re: What fixed anchors do you want to see replaced? [Re: MarcC]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
Speaking of scary dead trees that get used *all* the time: Middle Earth, GT. Dead and hollow tree, with a bonus of loose rock being the only thing that holds it up. I am befuddled as to why that location didn't rate a pair of shinies.

As I've said in other contexts: I wholeheartedly agree with decision-making that is based on and focused around the current population of climbers.

Yesterday's climbers, whoever they may be, and yesterday's answers, for whatever noble reasons they came about, should not overrule today's climbers, concerns and solutions. I think this struggle, together with abuse of the word "ethical", underlies a good deal of the inertia that keeps us clipping mank.

To be specific, that means replacing the 2nd pin on Classic with a bolt.

Top
Page 1 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 >


Moderator:  webmaster 
Sponsored