It's a nature preserve that features an huge outdoor climbing gym that hosts thousands of climbers every year. It isn't exactly pristine wilderness. Given all the trampling, stepping upon, scraping, etc.; what you are hypothetically proposing would seem to be a drop in the proverbial bucket. Don't ask, don't tell is probably good advice.

Brings up a related but different point. What happens when the nature of a long established climb becomes significantly changed due to plant growth. For instance, a two or three inch diameter sapling growing out of a very nice crack, or what used to be a very nice crack. Or a crack closed out with dirt, debris, grass and ferns.

Also, what's the definition of a tree?

Tradjunkie's right. There's language somewhere (on the day pass?) that says something like, "No chipping, glueing, bolting, trundling, tree cutting..."

What's a tree? LOL. Well, I know one when I see one?

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My own singular action might be a drop in the bucket; but in considering all of the trampling that does go on, I look at things from the point of view of "what would happen if everyone did what I'm doing?" - which is usually a good way to approach other "is it ok if I .... (double-park, kill a bug, pick a flower)" questions.

but it's also balanced by the greater good; if I opened a worthwhile pitch of climbing for everyone ...

anyway, thanks for the input folks, I have a clearer picture now.

It seems pretty obvious what a tree is. There are many dozens of species of native trees on the Mohonk Preserve. If one of them was growing out of a crack, it's a tree.

Also in response to Bill's statement about the Nature Preserve being a huge outdoor gym. Yes, that may be true, but that still does not give someone the right to do whatever they "think" is appropriate. The landowners have set forth clear guidelines for the use of their property. It's not up to us to determine what is a wilderness setting and then act accordingly. It's up to us to use the land in accordance with the owners wishes.

So where do we draw the line? What makes a three inch crooked scrub oak sticking out of a crack more special than a piece of rock tripe, or a bit of dirt compacted in a horizontal? I think the answer to this is......we all know what is right and wrong. You know it before you do it. If you have to ask yourself, then chances are you shouldn't be doing it. Just my opinion. It happens to be right however!

500 Bonus Points for Ranger Rob.

Call me cynical but if I were firing up my Stihl to go up and remove that annoying 3" "tree" in the crack and a ranger walked up; I would be willing to bet if I handed him a $100,000 check made out to the Preserve, he would end up offering me a belay and a voting membership on the board to my little friend "Farm Boss".

Put another way, if the original deed to the Preserve specified no access fees could be charged to climbers but allowed any activities to be banned it wished, climbing would likely not be occurring at the Gunks today.

I believe there is a case to be made that the primary "resource" at the Gunks is the climbing cliffs and the scenic profile and not some unique ecosystem feature and the Preserve should be managed to that end. The ecosystem, to whatever degree it is unique, of the Shawangunks seems more than adequately preserved by the apparent benign neglect of the ecosystem 25 miles to the north and 25 miles to the south.

I receive any number of mailings during the course of the year. Really ticks me off by the way to have paper mail sent to mail when I have explicitly indicated I would prefer the more ecological sound method of email.

At any rate I haven't really looked closely but I believe some of the pleas have been for funds for land acquisition to protect valuable, scarce or whatever fauna, flora or geology. Could it be the Preserve tolerates climbers and the ecological toll they that extract on the oh so sensitive Shawangunks ecosystem since their fees fund what could be termed an expansionist goal. Oh by the way, why have daily use fees gone up 250% in 6 years?

I am very firmly in the camp of respecting to the spirit and the letter of the law the property rights of a landowner. However let's not so quickly cede the Preserve the higher moral ground. If the main goal of the Preserve is to manage a ecosystem resource of a sensitive and rare nature, then they are complicit in its being significantly damaged by their current management practices.

Um, no. Putting in a route is first and foremost nothing but ego gratification. It may become a worthwhile pitch for everyone, but we're really doing it for our selfish little selves.

Wanted: more solipsistic climbers. (thanx alice alice alice alice)

Well, I tried...

Preserve climbing policy is set forth in

http://www.mohonkpreserve.org/pdf/ClimbingPolicy.pdf.

Item III. B. of that document includes the statement

In order to maintain the cliffs as far as possible in their natural state, however, the Preserve forbids all environmentally damaging climbing practices. These include trundling rocks, chipping holds, affixing new holds, cutting trees, and placing new bolts and pitons.

C'mon Kent! Surely I must have earned some points for evoking that response.

BTW, what the heck does it mean?!?!