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#45227 - 06/03/09 03:28 AM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: Julie]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2361
Loc: Boston
I still want to know what the deal was. Why'd camhead leave the fixed gear?

GO

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#45292 - 06/04/09 05:27 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: GOclimb]
camhead Offline
stranger

Registered: 06/04/09
Posts: 10
Hey all,

So here's the deal: That was my gear on KC. Personally, I do not think that there is any ethical debate whatsoever, because there was fixed gear the entire way out the roof (four stoppers and one pin). Because of their presence, I opted not to go for a true, traditional ascent, but for a pinkpoint. It would have made absolutely no sense for me to remove the draws off the fixed gear with each ascent, either; we all know that fixed stoppers, with or without draws, still constitute a pinkpoint. Since I was part of a larger group that did not want to congregate at the base of KC all day, I saw no problem with leaving the gear for later burns that I would take.

As for the gear left on the lower 5.4 slab (or what some of you are calling the first pitch), I simply left that out of laziness, I suppose. I lowered off of KC, and was well over 15 feet away from my lower fixed gear, knew I would take later runs, so I left it. Being from Utah, I suppose I have not yet become paranoid about people stealing my gear. In the town where I grew up, it was common practice for everyone to leave keys in their ignitions for months at a time; doors unlocked; and if a climber wanted to leave gear on a route, he or she could be reasonably sure it would not be stolen. Thank-you to everyone who walked under KC, saw the fixed gear, and left it! Fine, upstanding paragons of moral virtue, you are, and I know how tough it must be as New Yorkers and Easterners for you not to steal something.

Here's my personal take: I think that it is funny that so many people on this board are jumping to the soapbox without even knowing that KC has that much fixed gear on it! In the entire climb, I placed ONE cam, a .4 for my first piece. All the rest was fixed. It was a sport climb; I treated it as such. Personally, I enjoy and love many styles of climbing, from siege-projecting overhung sport routes at the Red River Gorge, to ground-up, onsight, chalkless and shoeless crack ascents in the Utah desert. Kansas City fell somewhere in between as far as this goes.

I am totally serious about this, if I ruined ANYONE'S plans on Sunday for a traditional free ascent of Kansas City with my pre-hung draws, I really apologize. Somehow, I doubt that I did, though. Through the entire memorial day weekend, we stuck mostly to climbs that were 5.10 and up, and did not have to wait in line for a single climb. I was not exactly siege projecting High E with a group of 4, or even practice aiding Nosedive, which I understand is not an uncommon practice.

So that's it. Sorry for the lengthy diatribe, but I really do think it is funny that I prompted such strong feelings. To end, I did NOT send Kansas City, even with my compromised sport tactics. So I'll be back with my brand-new annual pass, working it again, with or without the fixed draws, whatever. Feel free to stop by and lecture me on my spiritual crimes, chastize my belayer, cut my rope, or tell me that I am weak.

cheers,
Paul Nelson
Columbus, Ohio

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#45293 - 06/04/09 05:37 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: Julie]
clausti Offline
stranger

Registered: 06/04/09
Posts: 6
Originally Posted By: Julie

Ethics aren't different if you're on a 5.12 or a 5.2 ... the only thing different are the egos or lack of humility involved. So yeah, bad on them for leaving it there, no matter who or what.


more people want to climb easier routes. that makes it different, because the chances of someone else's ascent being buggered by gear on a 5.12 at the notoriously-'sandbagged' gunks seems a lot less likely than on a 5.6.

that being said, the gear was up for far less than the 24 hour "booty" "rule", more like less than 12 hours. it was still there when the OP was walking out a 7 because we were still climbing at 7, and camhead was gonna take one more run on KC.


Edited by clausti (06/04/09 05:44 PM)
Edit Reason: i can't spell, and i'm a mean person.

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#45295 - 06/04/09 05:47 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: clausti]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2361
Loc: Boston
Hey, thanks for clearing that up. Honestly, I'm mostly surprised at the fixed gear on KC that was there *before* you arrived. I don't think I've noticed fixed gear on it before.

GO

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#45296 - 06/04/09 05:48 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: GOclimb]
clausti Offline
stranger

Registered: 06/04/09
Posts: 6
Originally Posted By: GOclimb
Hey, thanks for clearing that up. Honestly, I'm mostly surprised at the fixed gear on KC that was there *before* you arrived. I don't think I've noticed fixed gear on it before.

GO


i doubt you'd never notice the wires from the ground. i stood under it for a while, including belaying, and the only way i knew they were there is the draws hanging off of them. it's like easter eggs.... like on birdcage. haha.

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#45298 - 06/04/09 05:52 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: clausti]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
...the wires aren't always there, they come and go. I'm guessing the next person out there aiding it will scoop them up and the cycle will start anew...
_________________________
...anethum graveolens cucumis sativus!

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#45299 - 06/04/09 05:56 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: Dillbag]
camhead Offline
stranger

Registered: 06/04/09
Posts: 10
for what it is worth, the day before I got on KC I spoke to someone who had recently sent it a week or so earlier (Rock and Snow employee, can't remember his name), ad he informed me that there were ample fixed nuts. So they had been up for at least a week, and at the time I inspected them, they were quite welded in place.

I will be psyched to get on it later for a true trad redpoint, and, unlike a lot of more "brainless" jamming cracks, KC will be truly harder without the fixed gear.

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#45301 - 06/04/09 06:16 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: GOclimb]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Originally Posted By: GOclimb
...I'm mostly surprised at the fixed gear on KC that was there *before* you arrived. I don't think I've noticed fixed gear on it before.

There were a couple of fixed pins and 2 or 3 nuts on it when I did it learning aid....in 1974.

Many climbers who started in the past decade might be very surprised at how small a rack you could get away with in 1980, thanks to the copious fixed gear*. Classic needed only a stopper, a #1 Friend, and 8 QD's BITD, for example.

[*: which was actually reliable and trustworthy, for the most part, at the time!]
_________________________
- Marc

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#45303 - 06/04/09 06:39 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: camhead]
andrew Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 1816
Loc: Denver, CO
It sounds like the real problem is that Eddie doesn't climb anymore - fixed nuts wouldn't last more than a few days if he was still around. I aided KC many times back in the 90s, and I never saw a fixed piece in it. It should still be that way now.
_________________________
This isn't an office. It's Hell with fluorescent lighting.

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#45304 - 06/04/09 07:50 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: andrew]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
Hey Camhead, glad you had a good time on your trip out here. Pay no heed to the babble of BS here as this backwater collection of posts can be a far cry from anything that goes on or the opinion of the real climbing community.

Guess I need to go up there clean out the roof so you will not have those silly fixed wires in the way on your next trip.

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