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#45422 - 06/08/09 08:59 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: Smike]
camhead Offline
stranger

Registered: 06/04/09
Posts: 10
RR, yes, there are plenty of hoods out west. And gear on a route does get stolen at other crags at which I've climbed; in Utah, Texas, Kentucky, everywhere. The difference is that at all those places, if your gear gets yanked, locals will say "wow, that sucks, those assholes." Not so at the Gunks, as I've gathered.

And, you all may want to educate yourself on the difference between "Style" and "Ethics." This whole thing is more a stylistic than an ethical matter. But that's an entirely different direction.

Oh, and has anyone actually taken time away from the internet and gone up to remove those fixed nuts that have so sullied the purity of Kansas City?

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#45434 - 06/08/09 10:24 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: camhead]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
Originally Posted By: camhead
Originally Posted By: Dizzy
Originally Posted By: camhead
Fine, upstanding paragons of moral virtue, you are, and I know how tough it must be as New Yorkers and Easterners for you not to steal something.


I guess this is the part of this mea culpa that bugs me. It's the unabashed moral superiority of those from somewhere out west. Those of us from the uncouth east who must have a crisis of faith to pass "free gear" don't need this sanctimonious judgement. I have found that too many folks from Boulder and SLC are just insufferable with their condemnations of the "east coast" vibe. Guess what_ not all of us fit your stereotype.

Ta,
Dizz


Good. I was hoping that comment would get a rise out of somebody! Seriously, though, every time a debate rises on ther climbing websites about what defines "booty," or when it is appropriate to gank fixed gear, Northeasterners are always the most eager to claim it, and the most hostile to the idea of just letting it be.

That said, however, y'all do have some very nice people at the Gunks. Clausti (my wife) and I had been chatting with someone at the crag for only about an hour when they offered us a room to crash in that night!


Well most of us are nice enough. Were just playing by a different set of rules than you seem to expect. I look at it this way: The Gunks are heavily trafficked climbing area. In order to keep all routes open as much as possible, local rules are not to leave gear. Simple as that. Most of us would courteously remove our gear leaving unencumbered access for others when we leave. Courtesy is all that should be necessary. But, since not everyone actually is this courteous motivation is useful. I look at it sort of like a traffic ticket. You can gamble if you like.

Julie is correct. The rule is not grade dependant. There are plenty of people climbing high grades at the Gunks. I think I am a far better driver than many on the road and my car is more capable too. That doesn't get me special parking privileges though.


Edited by mworking (06/08/09 10:30 PM)

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#45435 - 06/08/09 10:24 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: camhead]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
when your style affects other peoples style...it becomes an ethical problem. The gear would not have been "stolen". It would have been taken down and held until the owner came to claim it. The Preserve would have been told who had it in case the owners asked. If I had watched the people on it leave, and then took it for myself...that would have been stealing. Cleaning the cliff is not stealing. It cmes back to local ethics. You need to find out what the ethic is for fixing your gear on a route and then leaving. It's pretty simple. In the Gunks, don't do it

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#45446 - 06/09/09 12:38 AM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: RangerRob]
Lucander Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 224
Loc: Stone Ridge, NY
Strange how we're on an 8-page thread about gear left on a de facto sport climb while hardly anyone notices when topropes commonly get left for hours on the first pitch of classic multipitch lines...now THAT'S one which blurs the line between "style" and "ethics"


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#45450 - 06/09/09 01:47 AM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: RangerRob]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Originally Posted By: RangerRob
The gear would not have been "stolen". It would have been taken down and held until the owner came to claim it. The Preserve would have been told who had it in case the owners asked.

No, that's only what you would have done. I would not necessarily expect that behavior from the 1000 other wilderness seekers that day.
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- Marc

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#45454 - 06/09/09 02:06 AM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: MarcC]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
That may sadly be true, even for me. I was watching a beginner futz around with a cam about 20 feet up Horseman, and she couldn't get it out. For a short period of time I considered lurking about until they came down and left, and then gone up and snagged it. My little angel shoulder told me to solo up and retrieve it for them while they were coming down, and I gave it back to them. I could have scored a brand new .75 camalot, but being the lame ass sap I am, I did the right thing.

And Dave...it's only four pages so far..but let's keep it going!! Those topropes will get shoved aside or pulled if no one is actively on it. I don't stand for that. Climb it or get the hell off of it.

Some knuckleheads were tring slammin the salmon (imagine that!) and they were running their tr through the bottom of the chains. When I got to the anchor after seconding Birdland I had to wait for 15 minutes while the dude worked his moves and got to the ledge to get his damned rope out of the rap anchor. Pissed me off! You should not be tring through the chains! That is inconsiderate and lazy in the least, and destructive at most. LAZY!!!!!!

RR

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#45462 - 06/09/09 12:44 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: Lucander]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
??? I don't steal gear and have rarely kept legitimate booty (even then I give it away). But pulling a vacated rope? Wouldn't think twice.

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#45520 - 06/09/09 05:57 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: mworking]
Chas Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/22/01
Posts: 1754
Loc: Flagstaff
camhead: actually I used to live in NYC and climb in the Gunks (only 12yrs tho) but have lived out west for the last 10yrs. I get pissed off if people leave gear on a route. I find it rarely happens for more then a short time, but if it is for a few hours, come'n..... do the route and move on.

There are times when I am working a route, ie: the .13's at Indian Creek, when I may take several burns, but whenever I meet other climbers, I usually ask their intention, letting them know that I'll gladly move my stuff if they want the route (but usually find they just want to see someone whip on the route). The older I get the more I find that routes that are projects for me, may be merely warmup for someone else.

Even though the ethics are first come first serve, I find being considerate of others goes a long way.


Edited by Chas (06/09/09 06:17 PM)

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#45525 - 06/09/09 06:06 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: Chas]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
Quote:
first come first serve


True... but it's first come first serve as long as you're still actively climbing.
_________________________
...anethum graveolens cucumis sativus!

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#45527 - 06/09/09 06:19 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: Dillbag]
Chas Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/22/01
Posts: 1754
Loc: Flagstaff
That is the "being considerate" part

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