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#45089 - 05/28/09 03:38 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: Dizzy]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
So hard not to solo up the first 15 of easy tuff to snag that cam with the 2' running on it. Bizarre but everyone loves a half baked mystery.

#45097 - 05/28/09 07:19 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: Smike]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
yeah Andrew I would have thought it was a beginner aid climber were it not for the presence of quickdraws on all the pieces. I haven't even seen a beginner make the mistake of using draws on aid gear. The first piece, (camalot) was just to the right of the first slabby move on Outer Space, about 5 or 6' below and to the right of the fixed pin on that route. There were at least 2 more pieces fixed between that and the anchor in the roof.


#45100 - 05/28/09 08:13 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: RangerRob]
Coppertone Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Newtown, CT
Leaving your gear up on a route is simply selfish and should be viewed as booty. I thought that it was bad enough when someone left draws up on Flesh For Lulu(they were working the route) at Rumney overnight and they were shocked to find them gone the next day when the returned to claim "their" route. Expecting to leave gear on a trad climb at a popular public area such as the Gunks and find it still there when you return is simply silly. This is with the caveat that there was not an injury.

#45104 - 05/28/09 10:39 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: RangerRob]
Ralph Offline

Registered: 02/01/07
Posts: 142

#45105 - 05/28/09 11:13 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: Ralph]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Well if it's the same gear from this past weekend, then yeah it does. So give the story Ralphy Boy! Why was the gear left?

#45123 - 05/29/09 11:50 AM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: RangerRob]
talus Offline

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
i use to be all about what style, how hard, blah blah blah. i even had buddies say "well there is nothing hard enough to climb at that cliff". who gives a fuck it's just freaking climbing. just have fun and be safe.

btw i would have waited until 2pm the next day before it was booty. someone may have been doing a morning photo shoot.
John Okner Photography

#45126 - 05/29/09 01:57 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: talus]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Didn't think about a photo shoot. Okay I officially feel bad. Wait..okay I don't feel bad anymore. Whew! Thank God that didn't last long!

#45127 - 05/29/09 02:06 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: talus]
BobbyS Offline

Registered: 08/28/00
Posts: 367
Loc: None
I think a day is reasonable if it is not a popular route. Can't understand why there would be gear on the first pitch...that seems ridiculous unless it was an injured climber....That's part of the reason I think a day is reasonable...I have seen a lot of people sport lead/work this route.

This always stirred a number of fights in the valley....a certain German team would string up all of el cap with ropes and little tape marks saying #2 camalot next to the crack, etc....

Another time when we were climbing the Salathe there were coiled ropes and gear hanging at each belay station 2/3 of the way up El Cap and an empty tent 1/3 of the way up. Later that day Bubu came up the wall and was pretty pissed because they had previously been setting up fixed ropes to make a film of Free Rider... Why is ok that there are fixed lines all the way to Heart ledges 1/3 of the way up all year, but they couldn't leave lines stringing the next 1/3 for a few days while working/filming the route was his thinking? The fixed lines that were in place didn't really bother us, but at the same time it does detract a bit from the climb.

#45133 - 05/29/09 06:27 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: LarE]
Chas Offline

Registered: 03/22/01
Posts: 1754
Loc: Flagstaff
Originally Posted By: LarE
Just out of curiosity, how often do we think KC sees a free ascent these days? Once a weekend? Once a month? Once a season?

As far as the fixed gear thing goes, seems to me KC is a borderline case. You sure wouldn't want to leave fixed gear all over a 10 or 11 you were working on, unless it was EXTREMELY obscure; and you could certainly be forgiven for leaving it on a 12 or 13, especially if it is relatively out of the way (say, Twilight Zone, Project X). In a borderline case, it seems best to be polite: if you're the climber, don't leave your gear all the way down to the ground; if you find the gear, cut the other guy some slack and leave it untouched. But whatever...

Believe me. Its not cool on 5.12's or 5.13's, even if you are working them. If it takes too much energy to replace the gear on your next burn, you aren't really ready for the grade or atleast that route. The only time I've even considering doing this (and I was only going to leave my biners on the lower off bolts) was on a certain .13 at Indian Creek (and it was only to entice me to go back the following day even though I had pretty bad gobbies from the current days attempts.)

#45135 - 05/29/09 06:56 PM Re: Time for e climbing ethics debate [Re: BobbyS]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
I would like to bring in the following cross-post from NEIce...

Tradman's Booty Rulz

For the original posting of Tradman's Booty Rulz click the linky

What is up with all the fckin crybabies whineing about lost gear this year???? Seems like many of you have forgotten the rules.

#1 If you leave it for any reason other than assisting in a rescue it is booty as soon as you leave the parking lot unless you make it known that you will be back the next day to retrieve it.
#2 if you plan on getting it the next day BE THERE BY 6:00AM! Don't show up at 4:00pm and start crying when you can't find your shwagg.
#3 If it takes full screws and you don't know how to make a thread STFU and stop your whineing
#4 Just because it is late and you are tired is no excuse to start drinking and head home to your computer to beg us to go retrieve you shwag for you.
Hike your lazy ass back up that trail and find you own lost tool or stop whineing and write it off as lost.

Rules for finders.
#1 Stuff you find in the parking lot is Not booty. Its lost and found material.
#2 Any and All gear that is left or misplaced in the course of a rescue including the victims gear is NOT booty and will be collected and returned to rightful owners.
#3 any gear that is abandoned or lost due to incompetence, lack of skill, sack or sheer laziness is booty as soon as the former owners of that gear have left the cliff and given up attempts to retrieve that gear. Exceptions would be when the spanked party announces intention to resume recovery process at first light the following day.
#4 Finders of booty may offer to return said booty. The losing party loses face if they accept the return of their gear.

Rules for the losers
#1 Asking for your gear back is bad form and shows a lack of self respect.
#2 If the finder of your shwag offers to return it you may accept but if you do you will lose face. Buying them a six pack or case will help but in some cases still not completely erase the honor debt. If they offer , you refuse and they offer again and you accept it's much better but you should still buy them a drink and you still lost face just not as much face.
#3 The ONLY way to escape your embarrassing loss of gear without losing face is to not accept its return . A simple " thanks for offering but you guys earned it" should give you a clean slate 99.9% of the time.

Of course there are allways going to be a few exceptions to these rules. For instance if I had rapped Poko to retrieve those Quarks on Gorillas I would have returned them ASAP and still hold the spanked leader in extreemly high regard. Try that same trick on Standard RT and be too lazy to hike around to rap in and retrieve your tools and you would be giving me a new set of Quarks

Obviously this was written regarding ice... but I think it's more than relevant here.

If it's there after dark... it's booty!

In the case which RR cites, if there had been a backpack or rope bag/tarp on the ground the assumption would've been climbers coming back soon... ie, not YET booty.
...anethum graveolens cucumis sativus!

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