Has anybody really checked out the lower tier cliffs at Millbrook? Just looking at the cliff photos in Williams' blue guide; there's a lot of rock down there. Aside from the obvious issues of ownership and legality. I'm just curious, could some worthwhile climbing be found there? Or is it really that bad or uninteresting?

If anyone would know about that, he'd be Rich Romano.

The bottom third is fine rock but has always been avoided, at least publicly, due to ownership concerns. It was felt that the private property extended up the cliff and that avoiding the bottom third kept the climber on Preserve land. I have no idea if there is any legal truth to this, but I'm sure Dick and Rich know the real scoop.

I don't know the real scoop, but the deeds typically read "to the highest point of land," so I am positive that there is no situation in which a landowner owns the bottom third of the cliff and not also the part above it.

In fact, that bottom third is extremely dirty, loose, and almost always easy (I say this from having climbed up it BITD when certain landowners let us approach from the bottom.) I guess there might be a touch of interesting climbing on it somewhere if someone wanted to do a massive cleaning project, but I can't conceive of anyone wanting to bother, given the vast resources of much better rock available elsewhere in the Gunks.

So as far as I know, the avoidance of the bottom part has been because there came a time when there was no access from the bottom of the cliff any more and no one in their right mind, having appraoched from the top, would be interested in rappelling down that bottom part in order to climb back up it.

Thanks Rich.

I believe Fritz Weissner 1st climbed Old Route from the very bottom of the cliff. I also understood that the first few routes to be pioneered at Millbrook were climbed from the very bottom of the crag. That's probably close to a 400' cliff face.

wrong Fritz traversed in from the left side

Okay Rich; dirty, loose and easy is the answer I was looking for. Dirty and loose isn't necessarily discouraging to me, but combined with easy; my curiosity is gone.
By the way, is that the same story for the Bayards too? Or is there any interest hidden amongst the dirty, loose and easy? If I recall, weren't there a couple named routes in the Bayards of long ago?

Alex, I did suggest there might be something harder down there. I've climbed up the bottom section, I don't know, maybe 5-10 times, starting below whatever route we wanted to do, and almost always without roping up, so I certainly wasn't looking for difficulty. But the nature of what we did do and the fact that we did it at various locations along the length of the cliff does suggest that any difficult sections might be very localized with climbing that might be fairly contrived.

There is some good stuff at Bayards and more to be done, but access is now restricted and I don't know if there is anything legally available.

Kent? KEEEEEEENNNNTT?
here boy!!! Kent!!!!

Apparently, the bottom tier is better on the first third of the cliff, on the south (left) side... Don Perry apparently put up some routes there...

Do I need to bring my 40 foot stick clip? (reference to old DJP antics)

I thought it closer to a 60 footer.
Regarding the Bayards, go for it. It's likely the closure is even more laxly enforced than the widely ignored Nears closure.

"Regarding the Bayards, go for it. It's likely the closure is even more laxly enforced than the widely ignored Nears closure."

Marc, I would hate to see that become the normal way of thinking when it comes to private property. How would you know it was ignored all the way from Utah? I've seen nothing of the sort.

After spending over 25 years in the Gunks, I know more than a few locals and regulars that I'm still in regular contact with. If you've seen "nothing of the sort", you likely haven't been paying attention.

Mike - I think the 40 foot stick clip was for aid climbs only. However, I believe you should bring your hiking boots and leave your harness at home.

Page 14 of Gran's guide.
"Wiessner spotted two possible lines, so they continued to the face and gained a large ledge, the "Traverse Ledge" which traverses almost all of the face at the top of the lower dirty wall. They continued south along the ledge until they came to the further of the two possible lines, which they then climbed."
They had driven up and parked below, picked out two lines and scrambled up through the talus field. Moving south (from the right) and then climbing the "Old Route" they started it all 74 years ago.
Ironic how with the 75th anniversary of Gunks climbing almost upon us, that we can't climb on half the rock out there..... legally. RC

My recollection is that this "tradition" of avoiding the lower third of Millbrook had nothing to do with land ownership and everything to do with what Art Gran wrote in his original 1964 guidebook. Basically he stated (in the guidebook) and in person, that the lower third was dirty, rotten and should be avoided--compared to the clean climbing above. It's my belief that this "hearsay" stuck, and a tradition of avoiding the lower third began.

Probably Jim McCarthy would know the answer to this.

Ah, boulder problems.

Thanks for weighing in, Roy. I find it pretty cool that the gunks continue to have living legacies about to shed some fact on my usual speculations. That and I don't stick out like such an old guy as much.

Yup. I'll just confirm what I mentioned before. The first time I went into Millbrook was in 1966 and the tradition was to simply walk in from the bottom. The tradition was to do an "easy" climb first and we just followed the practice at the time, which was to avoid the lower tier and head to the traverse ledge to start the routes. Later, as we grew more ambitious, the first ascent parties routinely avoided the lower tier entirely, but not due to any issues over landowners. It was simply because there was too much good rock to climb on the upper part, and no reason to forge through lichen, loose blocks, and dirt on the lower angled lower tier. A similar situation was felt about the Bayards--and I believe that caused a discrimination against the Bayards as being dirty and filfthy--to be avoided. But like any area, I wouldn't rule out that 40 years later, there might be good rock worth exploring on the lower Millbrook tier!

A few further comments.

1. On his ascent of the Old Route, Fritz bushwacked up from the bottom, observed that the lower tier was "slabby and uninteresting," traversed the boulder field all the way to the Northern end of Millbrook, gained the Death Ledge from there, and in order to "to study the whole cliff more closely," traversed back to the Old Route start. On the way down, he walked South until it was possible to descend to the Death Ledge, which he then traversed all the way back North again, again looking for additional route possibilities, before reversing the bushwack to the car.

2. My comments about choss on the lower tier notwithstanding, Mim's post is accurate; there is some good rock at the far left end of the lower tier, underneath the portion of Millbrook known to the cognoscenti as The Beach.

Know to the original cognoscenti as the "The Third Band".

http://gunks.com/ubbthreads7/ubbthreads.php/topics/58242/MILLBROOK_and_THE_GRAND_TRAVER#Post58242

Opps, I meant "THE FOURTH BAND". The place had, was given that name, for a couple of reasons.

There are actually three ledges at that point, not two. One can traverse a higher ledge above Nuclear Waste to access many short Uberfall type climbes from there near the top of the cliff. You can make out a ledge there in the Guide book.

Opps, I meant "THE FOURTH BAND".

Note that since the area is known to but a few, the "Third Band" post above went uncorrected for more than a day and the correction was done by the poster himself.

So? Basically, who cares. You should be happy that the sound of crickets in here was momentarily interrupted.

Retroscree -

A bit off topic, but here is a real trivia question for you.

What climb did the authors of the last two posts in this thread do as a first ascent?

Phlan will know so that doesn't count.

What climb did the authors of the last two posts in this thread do as a first ascent?


Shucks, I'm one of the last two posters you mentioned and I don't know the answer to that question.

The rock at the bottom of the cliff is similar to the Uberfall as well.

Much too easy.

Vultures Know, 5.10 R, Near Trapps

Reread the thread. My post was a response to oenophore.