http://www.sheclimbs.net/gunks-anchors/Gunks_May15_005.jpg
http://www.sheclimbs.net/gunks-anchors/Gunks_May15_007.jpg
http://www.sheclimbs.net/gunks-anchors/Gunks_May15_009.jpg
http://www.sheclimbs.net/gunks-anchors/Gunks_May15_011.jpg
http://www.sheclimbs.net/gunks-anchors/Gunks_May15_010.jpg
http://www.sheclimbs.net/gunks-anchors/Gunks_May15_013.jpg

It was taken this past Saturday above Squiggles.
The Party climbing on it was made up of four women and the "leader" had very tattooed arms and a bit an of an attitude.

If you know them please tell them to get some certified instruction

I don't see the problem... they used locking biners. For safety.

Maybe the tree was still alive before they anchored to it?

Yes on the locking and 2 of them at that

Thank God there was a boulder on one end and a nice pile of leaves on the other to keep the dead tree stable.

Despite all the hand wringing and that it looks sketch as hell, it's probably stronger and more secure than anyone suspects. It's a TR anchor after all, not something that needs to withstand a FF2 winger.

Not advocating this kind of anchor, but there were a few times BITD where I'd have been overjoyed with something that solid (as compared to what I was forced to use).

I can remember BITD when I was taught to place pro for anchors in series so that they could maybe catch, one after another, as the previous piece was expected to blow if someone fell. Who knew anything about shock loading? We've probably all had to anchor off a piece of grass on an alpine route at one time or another and then kiss the ground later when you made it off, to scare yourself again later. Hope I never see those anchors again and really appreciate that you don't know what you don't know, hence a great service if someone can tactfully let this climber in on some anchor beta.

Hard to believe they could lower a climber with the rope bending over the edge like that. Repeated laps could easily = sheath damage.

So much for redundancy.

That's nowhere close to the worst TR anchor. I saw a guy TR'ing off the second ring pin on Betty 25 years ago, clipped with a single oval non-locking biner. And it was as shiny as the one in the images posted in this thread. Well Betty is only 5.3. I mean, no one has ever fallen on 5.3... right? And Squiggles is only 5.4 and hardly anyone ever falls on 5.4. So they were safe.

It's redundant; if falling to the ground doesn't do the climber in then the tree falling down on top of them should do the trick.

First off, I was one of the women who was there. If you thought it was so unsafe, why didn't you say anything? Second of all, You kept giving us dirty looks because you asked us if we were still on that route and we said yes. I am sorry, but a gentleman had just gotten off that route and tied in the same way as we did, except he used a cordelette instead of the slings I put up. Yes, perhaps I should have gotten a second point but that tree was pretty stable; I shook it several times and pulled. We were also, top roping and not leading. No one took a single fall.

It was pretty sturdy. the tree wasn't completely on the ground; the root was strong and held through despite various pulls, kicks, and pushes. Also, there was a huge boulder that acted as an opposing force which I thought would help. Thanks for the support

I'm glad everyone is fine. It is easy for us old farts and seasoned veterans to poke fun at the same stuff we did and managed to live through despite ourselves. Certainly, we would much rather not then participate in another carry-out of you or one of your party and I agree the concern should have been brought up at that time to you.
As discussed on this forum before, it is always a tough call as to how much to say when you see someone doing something you might think unsafe at the cliffs. Climbing is about freedom to most of us and not everyone likes to hear something that may be critical. When seeing a dangerous situation, I will generally try to nicely mention my concern, as these mostly occur from inexperience and lack of training. I will usually pose "may I make a suggestion?" and let the party accept or decline that I do so. After I have made my suggestion it is up to whomever to accept the suggestion or carry on, as you may now do for yourself.

Please start by buying yourself and then studying the book "Rock Climbing Anchors, 2nd edition" by John Long and Bob Gaines. There are much smaller books about top rope anchors available but they are not as comprehensive and you will want to use all the material in this one as you progress in your climbing journey.

Okay, don't get mad at me if I'm wrong, but this is a troll, right?

We chose not to say anything since we thought nobody was in immediate danger.
Maybe this was the wrong call, since it is always dangerous to toy too much
with the law of large numbers. We asked how long you were going to stay
on the route, and the answer was "A while. Is there a problem?" -- but we were
not throwing you dirty looks!. I did check your gear, the slings were fine and
did not look distressed -- it was nevertheless a(n) (extremely) bad anchor. To
repeat, we did think that for TR your anchor would hold -- modulo a black swan event.
(However, as other people pointed out, the rope might have suffered some damage.)

What I did do was to clean the area of debris and rocks so they will not
fall on the carriage road when the top part of tree would move (this was actually
happening when people from your party would swing from Squiggles Direct to
Squiggles), so everybody would be OK.

The bottom line is that we are not AMGA certified guides, and we were not sure
what the etiquette would dictate in such a situation. Next time we will notice
something that we would deem dangerous, we will raise an issue, but it is always
difficult to gauge what the best way to address such an issue is.

Cliff Destructo - I think a lot of us can respect your desire to respect other peoples' space and knowledge-base; it makes sense that you don't want to go outing climbers' questionable decisions, anchoring or otherwise.

That said, it's passive aggressive to stay silent in order to maintain that respect, and then have a field day at the group's expense with several images and harsh commentary online. Further, it's poor taste to hastily throw folks under the bus without hesitation, and simply shady to point out that you're not AMGA certified with lightning speed when someone calls you out on your post.

Maybe you were hoping the group would catch sight of your post and learn a lesson about anchoring. When I read all the responses, though, the most unified sentiment appears to echo that "hey, we've all done it, it wasn't ideal, and there might have been other options, but they survived." Were the anchors ideal? Definitely not. And now everyone knows better.

Just adopt the ubiquitous "If you see something, say something." Better to be wrong or piss other people off for imposing for safety's sake, than to stay silent and waste members' time talking about dirty looks and etiquette.

I think the same desire to avoid confrontation that Cliff Distructo and Giz felt at the crag has infected this thread now that Mac has appeared and taken offense.

I hope I would say it to your face, Mac, but since you are reading here and I have the opportunity to tell you now, I won't shy away from saying what every experienced person is thinking when he or she looks at those pictures: that anchor is terrible.

Yes, in alpine situations, and in emergencies, many climbers are forced to use sketchy anchors. There is NO EXCUSE for using an anchor like that in the Gunks in order to toprope. Tugging on a dead tree that still has a few roots stuck in the ground is not a serious test of its sturdiness. If a single tree is to be used for an anchor, and believe me I do it all the time, it should be a tree that is of fairly large girth and in excellent health, with all of its roots still in the earth. And it should be slung as close to the roots as is practical. Even if a tree appears perfect it is hard to evaluate just how strong it will be, and of course we all will make compromises now and again. But here, the tree is dead. It is resting on the ground. You chose to weight the middle of the trunk, subjecting it to who knows what forces. It is unacceptable.

You also failed to extend the rope over the edge properly but I will leave that discussion for someone else. The main point is that this anchor screams incompetence and somebody needs to tell you this before you kill yourself. Go read Long's anchor book, it's good.

CHip, Thanks for being reasonable. I would certainly have accepted any comments, I am always eager to learn and I would always welcome suggestions/ tips from the climbing community especially out there. I just think that if you feel so strongly like this guy, why not say something then? I bought the book you mentioned about a month ago and this is where I took my anchoring practice out. I was actually learning more on bolted anchors, and since I did not see any in 5 different places at the Trapps, I decided to try my luck with that tree. Better start practicing on the ground!

I suspect this is because the actual builder of the anchor wasn't the one who posted the photos, nor posted in the thread. No real utility in breaking down an anchor with so many obvious and blatant flaws if the builder isn't around to learn from it. The regular posters on the board are pretty jaded, to say the least, and we've all seen some pretty sketchy stuff going on at the gunks (hardware store nylon rope and water shoes, anyone?) I'd like to think that most of use would have tactfully said something if we'd seen such a clearly atrocious anchor, regardless of the "attitude" of the other party. Personally? I probably would have peeked over the edge and yelled down something like, "Hey, I don't know if you realized it when you built this anchor, but this tree is shaking every time you weight your rope, and your rope is running over a pretty sharp edge."

I CERTAINLY don't look at those photos and think to myself "Oh well, I've done that, they survived" Rather, more like resignation to the fact that people do idiotic things (don't we all?) and affirmation of my decision to climb at the gunks as little as possible on weekends, so as to avoid hearing those depressing sirens all the time.

That said, if the above post by the purported anchor builder was not a troll, I'm pretty horrified.

I still call troll.

I would be 100% grateful if this person who posted the pictures gave a shout out that the anchor was pathetic and that it needed immediate fixing. I do not appreciate however, the fact that he thought it is somehow funny to come on this site and point this out instead of actually helping a fellow climber out. Thanks for the advice on the tree selection, I had found some very much in tact and healthy about 20 ft above this point, but the angle to which the rope would have been droped would have been in the way of another party's wall and the rope would have gotten cut by the sharp edges. Next time, I will just step down and look for a completely different route and not make such a hasty decision.

Mac, were you the leader of a party?

It's one thing to try your luck with that tree. It's another thing entirely to try others' luck with it, others who ostensibly trust you to know what you're doing.

Since you didn't learn from the book you say you own, it sounds like you really would benefit from a day with a guide for have some hands-on building and evaluation of anchors. And please don't be taking other people out until you do.

No, the pictures were not posted 'as somehow funny', but to learn from them. Including us.
Everything about that set up was wrong. You said you saw somebody build a similar set up. And whatever I would have said it would have confused you further, as it was not only one mistake to point out, for an immediate fix.
So yes, I took the easy way out, so we can be done fast and safe with our last climb: made sure everyone was safe, and then have the pictures posted, so we'll all learn from them.
As SethG put it, I wanted to avoid 'a confrontation'. And from your message, looks like I was right. And yes, I was wearing sunglasses.
I'm sorry that you took offense - I did learned something from all this.

Mac, read the book thoroughly before heading out. I have the 1st edition of John Long and don't remember seeing any rig similar to yours.

Also, you may want to check out Peter's Kill for top-roping anchor setups - there are quite a few bolts on top. Plus they're easily accessible by a trail. Just remember not to use pitch pines for anchors - they're protected species. Judging from your anchor you're pretty low on gear - only barely good for bolted anchors (you need another locking biner to use 2 bolts).

Agree with Julie - have an experienced climber check your anchors first before you gain confidence and competence to bring others to climb. I would also never rely on strangers to build your anchors, so getting a book and trying to learn yourself is a good start.

While I have mixed feelings about OP's not being vocal on the scene and instead posting photos here online, this thread serves a good purpose for preventing other beginners make same mistakes, IMO. There is a lot of information online about top-rope anchors if you do some research. Rockclimbing.com has many posts with anchor analysis and critique, you should check them out...

I wasn't there. I questioned your authenticity because your comments seem designed to highlight your ignorance and elicit incredulous responses from people (as they are from me).

When you're first starting out, as you clearly are, climbing is NOT a sport where you "try your luck". It's NOT a sport where you assume things are okay to copy just because you see someone else of unknown skill and experience do them. It's NOT a sport you should be trying to learn from a book and practicing on your own.

"Better start practicing on the ground!" This is an ANCHOR - it's what's keeping you from hitting the ground. Stop and think about for just half a second - do you think it was okay to PRACTICE something that you were admittedly unfamiliar with in a situation where you could easily have killed yourself and your friends?

Alpine settings are one thing, but at the gunks, you should NEVER be top-roping off of something that is "pretty sturdy" and "pretty stable"; it should be BOMBER. There are plenty of trees and plenty of gear placements.

"Nobody took a fall" shows your ignorance about falls; all it would take would be literally three seconds delay by the belayer in taking up slack as the climber moved up and popped off to generate a reasonable amount of force - at least on an anchor built on a dead and uprooted tree.

If you're headed to the gunks to top-rope, there's no excuse for not coming equipped with enough gear to extend your anchor over the edge. Don't have enough? Find another route or drive the one minute down to the EMS and buy some webbing.

It may seem like it, what with the circus atmosphere and kids and dogs and crying babies and all, but the gunks are not an outdoor gym. People DIE every year. Saying that you are eager to learn and wish the climbing community would give you tips is all well and good, but to be blunt, your safety is NOT anyone's responsibility but your own.

The suggestion to buy the anchors book was nice, but clearly, given that you've read it and still thought your anchor was completely legitimate, you didn't learn very much from it.

The only think I can say is please please please please please get an experienced friend that can show you how to do things, and of whom you can ask questions, and if you can't find someone you trust, hire a guide. Don't expect to learn from the internet, and don't expect people climbing around you to double check your anchors.

Mac, you can send me a personal message through this site and I would be glad to spend some time helping you and your gang the next time I come up. Unfortunately, getting a guide was not an option for me BITD but I would highly recommend you do so to teach about anchor building and setting up top ropes. I have known people who have done so and every one has said it was a great experience. There are a few companies that are allowed to guide on Preserve property, such as Alpine Endeavors who advertise on this site. There are others as well, including Mike Rawdon, who is a frequent contributor to these dicussions.

Hey Mac

I wasn't there and if I was you would have heard some words from me. In MY opinion this is the easiest place to post, get feed back and as I had hoped got your attention. My friends took the photos and showed them to me and I was appalled. I got the response that I wanted and now you are a more educated and maybe a little safer climber for it.

As other posters have said you made a decision for not only yourself but everyone climbing with you and in the area and below this tree.

Get some certified instruction, follow SERENE and ERNEST when building anchors and don't top rope through rap chains


Be Safe Have fun

Just to be crystal clear - I wasn't supporting you. You constructed a grossly unsafe anchor and placed you and everyone in your party in danger of getting killed. Because of the rocks dislodged by the movement of the tree, you also placed anyone near you in danger as well. Somehow you read Long's book and completely ignored the multiple mentions of redundancy. At this point in your climbing, you are clearly incompetent and a danger to the community.

I love everything about this post. It makes me smile evertime i read the comments. Kudos to the photograpgher and to the Saturday climbing legend who set up this artful TR anchor.

We all want to be safe and we all want everyone else to be safe, if not for altuistic reasons then for selfish reasons. I've had more than one climbing day shutdown because I ended up assisting with a rescue or a body recovery. And these things stick with you. It's not like you'll carry a corpse out, load it the back of a vehicle and then jump on your next project. Even walking out with an injured climber sucks big time.

We all need to have more respect for each other and should be open to criticism. When I was starting to climb really well back around the early 80's some 'nobody' pointed out that I was belaying incorrectly. I was ashamed and didn't act too well toward that person at the time. I was a dick. Truth be told, that 'nobody' may have saved someone's life and allowed me to have a much safer and more enjoyable climbing life. If I could go back and rectify my actions or reactions, I would. And I'm an absolutely great belayer now

Let's all be safe and have fun.

Mac, a good thing to get is a length of 9-10 mm static cord, 25 meters should do it. This cord is something incredibly handy for building top rope anchors, is relatively inexpensive and is strong and durable. It is better, stronger and less complicated, to have a single piece of material to create your anchor with than to link together a variety of materials with girth hitches (which weaken weaken the system significantly) and/or carabiners. With 25 or more meters of material to work with it should be no problem to extend your 'master point' over the edge and to create strong, equalized and redundant anchors for top roping. Remember to protect yourself when you are working close to the edge during set up.

Still waiting for the PM to prove this wasn't a troll...

Freakin' hilarious...Mac here builds a horrendous anchor (when there are large healthy trees nearby; I TR'd squiggles direct and jacob's ladder just last season), lets the whole group risk their necks on it, then gets an attitude about it when pictures surface online. Gold, Jerry, gold!

PS I know you gals. Seen you in the gym. My party passed y'all on the carriage road and one of you said, "We've been setting up this anchor for like 4 hours." You should all chip in to get a guide for a day, and study those books in the meantime.

I am always in a quandary about how much to say when I see something abjectly dangerous. For myself I have decided to go ahead and offer up a concern and leave it at that. Not to be critical just cautionary.

However renegade and disparate, we are a community so let's ante up and help the ignorant climbers bent on killing themselves and others.

I'll send 'em my one inch military spec webbing. IIRC, I still have probably sixty to eighty feet of it, and I haven't used it in years. Seems like they could use it far better than I can.

With that, a few biners, and some knowledge, you can set up a toprope just about anywhere.

Send me a PM, and I'll send you the gear.

Sorry, can't help out on the knowledge part - not on the East Coast anymore. But seriously - telling these folks to hire a guide? 90% of the posters here could show these folks a couple of safe ways to set up an anchor in about an hour. None of you can take an hour out of your weekend to just show this lady a thing or two before she's involved in a serious accident?

GO

I wonder if this was the group of women who decided to belay from the rap slings dangling over the edge on pitch one of Betty because the ledge was too full...

Thanks GO-very, very nice.

I'd prefer not to have that kind of responsibility for a stranger.
I'd prefer to leave trying to teach something to someone with an already demonstrated poor grasp of the consequences of error in this sport (this was not simple ignorance in my opinion. This was an example of sheer stupidity. I still can't get over how the HELL uwing a "pretty sturdy" tree to "practice" your book learned top rope anchor building skills out on all your friends is possibly okay in any person of even marginal intelligence's mind) to the professionals with the patience and the insurance.

Amen

I was lucky to have an amazing mentor/climbing partner who taught me so much during the 2 1/2 years we climbed together. It would be great if people who started climbing outdoors, especially trad, considered that this mentoring relationship (whether guide or old hand) is crucial to staying safe.

I still learn from people I climb with. Someone does something differently, not necessarily better, but it works in certain situations. This is the beauty of our chosen passion-the more you climb, the deeper and more resonant the experience and opportunity to learn become.

Tall girl hit it on the head
Learning from and following a mentor and actually apprenticing not learning from a friend who learned from a friend etc.

Being a part of several rescues I too don't want to see it any more especially when it could have been avoided.

Case in point recently

#1 A guy on Belly Roll armed to the gills with huge wired hexes, cams and nuts to the wazoo and 4 big bros. Every placement was placed then tested w/ a straight out pull several times then clipped.

We climbed both pitches of Classic and rapped before this guy with his belayer 15 feet off the cliff and sitting was even at the belay ledge.

Come on. Just because it's 5.4 doesn't mean you can't kill yourself.

#2 Same day moments before we moved on a father and kid are on Jackie. The father look as if he has climbed before but is kinda fumbling w/ stuff. He takes off with the kid 10 feet off the cliff, sitting and belaying with a open palm up shuffle belay technique.

Before we go I advise him that he should be standing near the tree and really paying attention to his belaying. It got his attention when I told him that this was best just in case his father were to fall he could actually stop the fall and he would not be dragged to the cliff and smashed in to it.


Climbing is not safe and everyone deserves to get a cold beverage in their hand at the end of the day.

... what Aya said. These people need an Authority Figure such as a Certified Climbing Instructor that they've paid for. They've already managed to ignore a pretty darn good book, and have also managed to ignore good examples all around them at the cliff. The original poster noted a certain attitude barrier, too.

I have and will mentor people who are open to learning, but I'm not fighting an uphill mental battle.

Minor thread drift for a minor correction. Pitch pine, Pinus rigida, is not a protected species.

Okay, y'all have a point. Maybe better that they sign up with a certified guide. Anyway, my offer to send webbing still stands.

GO

I still love you GO

Awe shucks.

G

Mac, I sent you a PM - check your messages.

Mac, you fell victim to one of the classic blunders: Rule #1 of climbing in the Gunks... don't do or say anything that can be nitpicked to death on Gunks.com.

Only slightly less important is Rule #2: don't be a witness.

Do try to pick a slightly sturdier setup next time.

Hey! Keep it it going. There's still meat on this one.

Nitpicking...the term has become appropriated to describe the practice of meticulously searching for minor, even trivial errors in detail...and then criticising them. [boldface added by me]

---http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitpicking

So, that anchor suffers from nothing more than minor, even trivial errors in detail?

It seems Ped's point is not that the errors in the anchor were trivial but that some of the comments on this site have been.

Yes, yes, nitpicking is the wrong word, knew that when I wrote it... I'm having trouble coming up with the right one. Thanks for the nitpick!

My point is that Rule #1 was broken, and the fault of that lies with with anchor builder. The point is: every time you take any action in climbing, ask yourself: would I want this prominently featured in a photo on the Gunksdot homepage? Obeying this one simple rule could avoid all sorts of trouble down the line.

(Gunksdot nitpicking abounds! Just not in this thread.)

I've read alot of the posts on this. First I will say I am a newbie, only just into my second season. For that reason alone I will not put the lives of others in my hands though I have read extensively and climb with seasoned climbers whose brains I pick on a regular basis. I also love striking up conversations with other obviously experienced climbers whose paths I cross to get whatever beta and coaching they are willing to impart. The vast majority are willing to impart bucketloads!

Given all of that, I personally would be absolutely delighted to hear whatever suggestions the "old farts" wish to kindly, diplomatically, and graciously offer.

Finally, even I have to say that was a poor choice but I will not review the assessments already offered by others. Take a course. Read lots of books on climbing. Double and triple check everything. Be very obsessive compulsive. Never assume. Never imagine any question is a stupid one.

This is far from the worst TR anchor because it held and nobody got hurt. That isn't always the case, hence the concerns everyone expressed.
My anchor education was accelerated when I had been climbing less than a couple months and set a poor TR anchor. It was the exact same anchor, in the exact same spot that I had fallen on repeatedly the week before with my first two hexes set by a much more experienced climber. I asked my friend to lean back on the rope and the whole bit blew, resulting in a sprained ankle and a dinged helmet where her head struck a rock. the placement was predicated on caming both hexes into separate cracks and resting against crystals to keep them stable. Who knew that crystals could blow out of the matrix of rock like that? With little experience or instruction, I certainly did not. I therefore feel absolutely no sense of anything but complete humility about anchors and have worked very hard to avoid ever hurting anyone again due to my ignorance. 30+ years later I have been successful, so far. I am still happy to help if someone wants to spend the time, especially our anchor builder. The difference between experience and wisdom is that wisdom comes from applying other peoples' experiences.

Whoa there!

That anchor could have been on top of Bloody Bushes.

Sorry... I got out of my cage.

Here's a nice one for you from atop Shockley's:



The belayer didn't feel like using the ATC Guide in guide mode so he used the ATC cable as a part of the anchor through which the belay was redirected. Not a great idea.

Wow.

Not even a good idea.

Edit to add from Petzl:
"Cable = 0 kN
The cable has no tensile strength.
WARNING DANGER, do not use the
cable to anchor yourself."

"The belayer didn't feel like using the ATC Guide in guide mode so he used the ATC cable as a part of the anchor through which the belay was redirected. Not a great idea."

Wow. Words fail me.

I guess it's an example of how a little knowledge (i.e., "biner on biner is bad") can be a dangerous thing (so let's separate those biners with anything that comes to hand!).

I think it was just thoughtless. He decided to belay off his harness, and instead of taking the ATC Guide out of the system, he just grabbed the biner attached to it and ran the rope through it.

The guys who posted the photo realize it was a lapse-- I'm starting to feel bad now about posting it, so please don't be too hard on them. Here's the page it came from, and the people who did it posted comments about their mistake:

link

I met these guys on High E - they are solid, don't rush to judgments. I'm pretty sure it was some lapse at the end of a long climbing day. They were visiting from one of the Dakotas on a 5-day climbing trip - probably traveling and so much climbing put the brains backwards.

Unfortunately that's how people get killed and others have to clean up. In remarkably few other endeavors does a single "lapse" have the propensity to escalate exponentially.

Just a bit of a jerk and they'd both be heading for the deck. These folks may be great climbers and wonderful people, but you can't, on a ordinary cragging day in the gunks, redirect a belay (thereby roughly doubling the load) via the belay device keeper wire and be called "solid."

I agree with Rich. End of day, middle of day, midnight, redirect through a biner directly into the sling/anchor. Doesn't matter how tired you are basic safety is basic safety and there is not a whole lot of thought involved in this one. It's not like something got confused in a complicated anchor setup.

Why didn't they just clip that biner to the webbing and eliminate the ATC all together.

Check out the open biner w/ the clove hitch later in the album.

I feel like this album is a "find whats wrong" test

They removed the ATC link up photo but have left the classic open biner clove hitch shot

rats !