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#52487 - 06/04/10 04:18 PM Vacine Safety
Mark Heyman Offline
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Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
Link to an article concerning vacine safety. Seems I remember a few here in need of education in this regard. Didn't hurt me to read it either.

http://www.slate.com/id/2255259/


Edited by Mark Heyman (06/04/10 04:51 PM)

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#52502 - 06/05/10 02:09 AM Re: Vacine Safety [Re: Mark Heyman]
chip Offline
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Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Nothin like saying, "Screw the science, let me make a name for myself!" You can't just experiment with kids without very close and strict protocols to prevent any abuse of the kids or data. While everyone wants to figure out how to solve autism, it makes no sense to stop a vaccine that has so many benefits for children until there really is solid evidence. Unfortunately the correlational stats that are often sited do not show cause and effect.
Thankfully, none of my kids are autistic but I've worked with and come to love several who are. I'm not sure why but it seems like all the autistic kids I've met are very good looking, could easily be child models. Prolly just my small sample. It is no wonder that folks would love to find something to blame for this difficult malady.

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#52508 - 06/05/10 11:23 AM Re: Vaccine Safety [Re: Mark Heyman]
oenophore Online   confused
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Personally, I have no opinion pro or con. Yet in the interest of balance, I offer this link.
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#52520 - 06/05/10 08:19 PM Re: Vaccine Safety [Re: oenophore]
MarcC Offline
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And after the regurgitated conspiracy drivel of Gary Null, you probably should read this as well.
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#52525 - 06/05/10 10:45 PM Re: Vaccine Safety [Re: MarcC]
oenophore Online   confused
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Again, I don't want to be tendentious here. Yet the "conspiracy drivel" article is replete with excerpts and abstracts from articles published in peer-reviewed journals while the New Scientist article has none.
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#52527 - 06/05/10 11:47 PM Re: Vaccine Safety [Re: oenophore]
MarcC Offline
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Originally Posted By: oenophore
Again, I don't want to be tendentious here. Yet the "conspiracy drivel" article is replete with excerpts and abstracts cherry picked and out of context from articles published in peer-reviewed journals while the New Scientist article opinion piece has none.


Fixed that for ya.
NS quite clearly identifies it as opinion. Where even with his excerpts and abstracts, Gary Null is after all, still Gary Null.
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#55082 - 09/20/10 04:45 PM Thread drift -- Vaccine efficacy [Re: chip]
oenophore Online   confused
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Vitamin D proven far better than vaccines at preventing influenza infections

(NaturalNews) If scientists discovered something that worked better than vaccines at preventing influenza, you'd think they would jump all over it, right? After all, isn't the point to protect children and adults from influenza?

A clinical trial led by Mitsuyoshi Urashima and conducted by the Division of Molecular Epidemiology in the the Department of Pediatrics at the Jikei University School of Medicine Minato-ku in Tokyo found that vitamin D was extremely effective at halting influenza infections in children. The trial appears in the March, 2010 issue of the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition (Am J Clin Nutr (March 10, 2010). doi:10.3945/ajcn.2009.29094)

The results are from a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study involving 334 children, half of which were given 1200 IUs per day of vitamin D3. In other words, this was a "rigorous" scientific study meeting the gold standard of scientific evidence.

In the study, while 31 of 167 children in the placebo group contracted influenza over the four month duration of the study, only 18 of 168 children in the vitamin D group did. This means vitamin D was responsible for an absolute reduction of nearly 8 percent.

Flu vaccines, according to the latest scientific evidence, achieve a 1 percent reduction in influenza symptoms (http://www.naturalnews.com/029641_v...).

This means vitamin D appears to be 800% more effective than vaccines at preventing influenza infections in children.

To further support this, what really needs to be done is a clinical trial directly comparing vitamin D supplements to influenza vaccines with four total groups:

Group #1 receives a vitamin D placebo
Group #2 receives real vitamin D (2,000 IUs per day)
Group #3 receives an influenza vaccine injection
Group #4 receives an inert injection

Groups 1 and 2 should be randomized and double blind while groups 3 and 4 should also be randomized and double blind. The results would reveal the comparative effectiveness of vitamin D versus influenza vaccines.

Unfortunately, such a trial will never be conducted because vaccine pushers already know this trial would show their vaccines to be all but useless. So they won't subject vaccines to any real science that compares it to vitamin D.


Vitamin D also significantly reduced asthma in children
Getting back to the study, another fascinating result from the trial is that if you remove those children from the study who were already being given vitamin D by their parents, so that you are only looking at children who started out with no vitamin D supplementation before the trial began, the results look even better as vitamin D reduced relative infection risk by nearly two-thirds.

More than six out of ten children who would have normally been infected with influenza, in other words, were protected by vitamin D supplementation.

Also revealed in the study: vitamin D strongly suppressed symptoms of asthma. In children with a previous asthma diagnosis, 12 of those receiving no vitamin D experienced asthma attacks. But in the vitamin D group, only 2 children did.

While this subset sample size is small, it does offer yet more evidence that vitamin D prevents asthma attacks in children, and this entirely consistent with the previous evidence on vitamin D which shows it to be a powerful nutrient for preventing asthma.


Vaccine pushers aren't followers of real science
Now, given that vitamin D3 shows such a powerful effect in preventing influenza -- with 800% increased efficacy over vaccines -- shouldn't CDC officials, doctors and health authorities be rushing to recommend vitamin D before flu season arrives?

Of course they should. But they won't. Because for them, it's not about actually preventing influenza and it never has been. The vaccine pushing camp is primarily interested in using influenza as an excuse to vaccinate more people regardless of whether such vaccines are useful (or safe).

Even if vitamin D offered 100% protection against all influenza infections, they still wouldn't recommend it.

Why? Because they flatly don't believe in nutrition! It runs counter to their med school programming which says that nutrients are useless and only drugs, vaccines and surgery count as real medicine.

The vaccine pushers, you see, aren't followers of real science. You could publish a hundred studies proving how vitamin D is many times more effective than vaccines and they still would never recommend it.

They are promoters of medical dogma rather than real solutions for patients. They promote vaccines because... well... that's what they've always promoted, and that's what their colleagues promote. And how could so many smart people be wrong, anyway?

But that's the history of science: A whole bunch of really smart people turn out to be wrong on a regular basis. That's usually how science advances, by the way: A new idea challenges an old assumption, and after all the defenders of the old (wrong) idea die off, science manages to inch its way forward against the hoots and heckles of a determined dogmatic resistance.

This attitude is blatantly reflected in a quote from Dr John Oxford, a professor of virology at Queen Mary School of Medicine in London, whose reaction to this study was: "This is a timely study. It will be noticed by scientists. It fits in with the seasonal pattern of flu. There is an increasing background of solid science that makes the vitamin D story credible. But this study needs to be replicated. If it is confirmed we might think of giving vitamin D at the same time as we vaccinate." (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/ne...)

Did you notice his concluding remark? He wasn't even considering the idea that vitamin D might replace vaccines. Rather, he's assuming vitamin D only has value if given together with vaccines!

You see this in the cancer industry, too, with anti-cancer herbs and nutrients. Any time an anti-cancer nutrient gains some press (which isn't very often), the cancer doctor will say things like, "Well, this might be useful to give to a patient after chemotherapy..." but never as a replacement for chemo, you see.

Many mainstream doctors and medical scientists are simply incapable of thinking outside the very limiting boxes into which their brains have been shoved through years of de-education in medical schools. When they see evidence contrary to what they've been taught, they foolishly dismiss it.

"The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd; indeed in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible." - Bertrand Russell


Medical journals as guardians of ignorance
Medical journals largely function not as beacons of scientific truth but as defenders of pseudoscientific dogma. To have your paper published in most journals, your paper must meet the expectations and beliefs of that journal's editor. Thus, the advancement of scientific knowledge reflected in each journal is limited to the current beliefs of just one person -- the editor of that journal.

Truly pioneering research that challenges the status quo is almost always rejected. Only papers that confirm the presently-held beliefs of the journal's editorial staff are accepted for publication. This is one reason why medical science, in particular, advances so slowly.

Studies that show vitamin D to be more effective than vaccines will rarely see the light of day in the scientific community. It is to the great credit of the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, in fact, that it accepted the publication of this paper by Mitsuyoshi Urashima. Most medical journals wouldn't dare touch it because it questions status quo beliefs about vaccines and influenza.

Medical journals, you see, are largely funded by the pharmaceutical industry. And Big Pharma doesn't want to see any studies lending credibility to vitamins, regardless of their scientific merit. Even if vitamin D could save America billions of dollars in reduced health care costs (which it can, actually), they don't want vitamin D to receive any scientific backing whatsoever because drug companies can't patent vitamin D. It's readily available to everyone for mere pennies a day.

In time, it will be recognized as superior to vaccines for seasonal flu, but for now, we must all suffer under the foolish propaganda of an industry that has abandoned science and now worships a needle.

Sources for this story include:
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abs...

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#55090 - 09/20/10 08:40 PM Re: Thread drift -- Vaccine efficacy [Re: oenophore]
Mike Rawdon Offline

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Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Originally Posted By: NaturalNews


Flu vaccines, according to the latest scientific evidence, achieve a 1 percent reduction in influenza symptoms (http://www.naturalnews.com/029641_v...).


I find it hard to believe that flu vaccines are ineffective 99% of the time. Sadly, the link offered in the article is broken. But since it was back to another NatNews story, I wasn't expecting much.

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#55093 - 09/20/10 08:56 PM Re: Thread drift -- Vaccine efficacy [Re: oenophore]
SkurdeyCat Offline
newbie

Registered: 08/14/03
Posts: 40
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: oenophore


Flu vaccines, according to the latest scientific evidence, achieve a 1 percent reduction in influenza symptoms (http://www.naturalnews.com/029641_v...).

This means vitamin D appears to be 800% more effective than vaccines at preventing influenza infections in children.


Do you really believe this drivel? How can supposedly educated people blindly accept anything that's written down, not even briefly thinking about what it says? On a BAD year, the flu vaccine is about 50% effective, and in years when it is well matched to the circulating strains it is up to 90% effective. (CDC Stats, of course you'll probably say they are in league with Big pharma).

I'm not even going to look at the referenced article, because the 800% claim above is comparing apples and oranges. "Influenza Symptoms" can be caused by almost anything, virus, bacteria, mold, chemicals, beer. Flu vaccine prevents flu, not hangovers.

Science is not perfect, but it's the best method we have. Quackery may be comforting, but intentionally misleading half-truths never cured anybody.

If your child isn't already getting their RDA of D3 each day, you should re-evaluate your parenting skills.

Skurdey

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#55097 - 09/20/10 09:41 PM Re: Thread drift -- Vaccine efficacy [Re: SkurdeyCat]
MarcC Offline
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Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Originally Posted By: SkurdeyCat
Flu vaccine prevents flu, not hangovers.

What???
Crap.
That explains a lot.
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#55099 - 09/20/10 09:42 PM Re: Thread drift -- Vaccine efficacy [Re: Mike Rawdon]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5968
Loc: 212 land
The cited American Journal of Clinical Nutrition article was published in May 2010, not Mar. 2010 as stated. As with simalar academic journals, a non-subscriber may see only abstracts free of charge. This isn't much help:

Mitsuyoshi Urashima, Takaaki Segawa, Minoru Okazaki, Mana Kurihara, Yasuyuki Wada, and Hiroyuki Ida
Randomized trial of vitamin D supplementation to prevent seasonal influenza A in schoolchildren
Am. J. Clinical Nutrition, May 2010; 91: 1255 - 1260.
......research-article Vitamins, minerals, and phytochemicals...to prevent seasonal influenza A in schoolchildren...association between serum vitamin D intake and recent...the relation between vitamin D and physician-diagnosed influenza or delineated the...


Edited by oenophore (09/20/10 10:16 PM)
Edit Reason: found the cited atricle
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#55111 - 09/21/10 01:59 AM Re: Thread drift -- Vaccine efficacy [Re: oenophore]
chip Offline
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Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
There is no question that our "modern" diets are not always packed with every vitamin and trace elements, but they are better than it has been for most of man's existence. It seems that almost every month someone "discovers" that another vitamin can be helpful for some function or another. Most people simply don't eat 6 or 7 fresh fruits and vegetables daily and so we should supplement. Some of the stated claims in this article, such as % of effectivness for vaccines are laughable but there may be some validity to the finding that it helps boost immune response to viral infections. I have yet to find the kid that will turn down a Flintstone Vitamin.

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#55122 - 09/21/10 10:16 AM Re: Thread drift -- Vaccine efficacy [Re: chip]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5968
Loc: 212 land
There is no question that our "modern" diets are not always packed with every vitamin and trace elements, but they are better than it has been for most of man's existence.

There's an on-the-one-hand-on-the-other-hand aspect to this. In our contemporary land, food is more sanitary than it used to be, labels tell us what's in a food package and how much of several nutritional components are to be found within, a greater variety of foods are offered, produce is available year-round, etc. There's no doubt that an enlightened consumer can eat a healthy diet.
I don't watch children's TV shows, but I've heard that they're full of ads for unhealthy food. My wife, who teaches in Harlem, has told me that it's no use going out for lunch, for only junk and greasy fast foods are available. I suspect the same is true in many an "inner city" (remember when they used to be called slums?) On a couple of websites, I read Michelle Obama's suggestion that restaurants offer healthier food alternatives. Comments by readers on this are full of denunciations of the mind-your-own-@$$%$^^$-business variety. So many get unhealthier as they age, driving up medical costs. To quote SkurdeyCat, "If your child isn't already getting their RDA of D3 each day, you should re-evaluate your parenting skills." And if you aren't getting that, you're foolish as well. I'll remain unvaccinated and rely on D3.
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#55126 - 09/21/10 01:36 PM Re: Thread drift -- Vaccine efficacy [Re: Mike Rawdon]
SkurdeyCat Offline
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Registered: 08/14/03
Posts: 40
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Mike Rawdon

I find it hard to believe that flu vaccines are ineffective 99% of the time. Sadly, the link offered in the article is broken. But since it was back to another NatNews story, I wasn't expecting much.


Read carefully:

Originally Posted By: NaturalNews

Flu vaccines, according to the latest scientific evidence, achieve a 1 percent reduction in influenza symptoms


Even if this "latest research" was flawless, the stated endpoint is "reduction of symptoms", not whether anyone actually contracted the flu, so every participant that reported a fever, ache, headache or tiredness could be counted as a "fail".

As soon as you see apples and oranges comparisons like this you know you are into snake oil salesmen, or politicians.

If you are really worried about threats to your health, have you evaluated your exposure to DiHydrogen Monoxide?

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#55145 - 09/21/10 05:08 PM Re: Thread drift -- Vaccine efficacy [Re: SkurdeyCat]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
"Unfortunately, such a trial will never be conducted because vaccine pushers already know this trial would show their vaccines to be all but useless. So they won't subject vaccines to any real science that compares it to vitamin D.
"
excuses, bad links, and generally unavailable links...I can make up anything I want too...

Although I wouldn't include Flu vaccines in the important vaccine category, there is absolutely no question about the vast benefits compared to detrimental effects of the important vaccines we use today.

There was just another study showing that there are no detrimental side effects from some vaccine that contained mercury. If you want I'll find a link.


Edited by Mark Heyman (09/21/10 05:18 PM)

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#55156 - 09/21/10 06:58 PM Re: Thread drift -- Vaccine efficacy [Re: Mark Heyman]
SkurdeyCat Offline
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Registered: 08/14/03
Posts: 40
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Mark Heyman

There was just another study showing that there are no detrimental side effects from some vaccine that contained mercury. If you want I'll find a link.

(Emphasis mine) Why bother, there have been dozens, if not hundreds of these studies. Clearly anyone who is deceived by this NaturalNews mumbo jumbo can't make informed decisions on their own anyway, and deserves to be sold all the snake oil they can afford.

There is a risk associated with all drugs, that's why you need prescriptions, you and your doctor (preferably just your doctor) evaluate those risks against the benefits.
In the case of mandatory vaccinations, society as a whole benefits from the program, and yes, some tiny number of innocent defenseless cuddly children will suffer serious side effects. Without those vaccines, thousands would die. Ever check the fatality rate for measles? What about birth defects caused by rubella?
No legitimate study has ever shown a link between any vaccine and autism, but even if there was one, the benefits as a whole would still outweigh the risks.

To pre-empt the response that I'm being deceived by Big Pharma propaganda, perhaps, but at least it takes a much more sophisticated con to fool me than this junk.

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#55161 - 09/21/10 07:35 PM Re: Thread drift -- Vaccine efficacy [Re: SkurdeyCat]
oenophore Online   confused
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Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5968
Loc: 212 land
There is lots of ardent finger pointing on this issue:

Drug manufacturers are interested only in their bottom line, not public health!

Those who advocate natural over pharmaceutical remedies are demented or snake oil salesmen!


And so it goes. I'm only a layman here, but like everyone else, have an interest in maintaining my health by any reasonable means. A book will soon be published which maintains that no vaccine has ever been proven safe of effective. It will be chock full of endnote references from reputable publications. The thesis, I'll agree, is amazing and hard to believe yet unless it's refuted via citation of similar scholarly works, it is not to be dismissed out of hand.
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#55180 - 09/21/10 10:36 PM Re: Thread drift -- Vaccine efficacy [Re: oenophore]
MarcC Offline
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Posts: 3532
Originally Posted By: oenophore
A book will soon be published which maintains that no vaccine has ever been proven safe of effective.

Exactly what kind of protocol and experimental design would be able to *prove* something as "safe"?

Regarding "...no vaccine has ever been proven ... effective.", uh, bull shit.
Polio is but one of hundreds of examples.
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#55187 - 09/22/10 12:26 AM Re: Thread drift -- Vaccine efficacy [Re: MarcC]
chip Offline
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Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Originally Posted By: MarcC
Originally Posted By: oenophore
A book will soon be published which maintains that no vaccine has ever been proven safe of effective.

Exactly what kind of protocol and experimental design would be able to *prove* something as "safe"?

Regarding "...no vaccine has ever been proven ... effective.", uh, bull shit.
Polio is but one of hundreds of examples.


Smallpox has been completely eradicated due to vacination.

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#55216 - 09/22/10 03:03 PM Re: Thread drift -- Vaccine efficacy [Re: oenophore]
SkurdeyCat Offline
newbie

Registered: 08/14/03
Posts: 40
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: oenophore

Those who advocate natural over pharmaceutical remedies are demented or snake oil salesmen![/b]


Please correct this misquote. This doesn't even closely resemble what I said.

However, if I may correct your re-invention of my words; Those who advocate natural over pharmaceutical remedies, automatically accepting that all natural products are effective and safe, and that all drugs are ineffective and unsafe, deserve to be sold all the snake oil they can afford. Equally, those who believe that all drugs are completely harmless and will always cure their illness, and that all natural remedies are just quackery, deserve the liver and kidney damage that will surely follow.

There is a full range of products out there. There are harmless snake oils, and dangerous snake oils. There are expensive drugs that are only marginally effective, with serious side effects, aggressively promoted by Big Pharma to increase their bottom line. There are inexpensive "natural" products that have been scientifically proven to enhance health or save lives. There are inexpensive drugs that are safe and effective. There are drugs and supplements out there that could save lives but may never see the light of day because drug companies wouldn't make enough profit. There are even products whose manufacturer's don't want clinical studies because if proven effective they legally become drugs, and are subject to stricter regulations and increased costs.

I'm not a pharmacologist or statistician, but when I can see gaping flaws in the claims supporting some new natural wonder cure, I know enough to stay away. That Vitamin D study was published in a respected peer reviewed journal, I haven't read it, but I'll accept the summary provided above. Vitamin D is recognized as important in preventing many illnesses, it is already added to dairy products in the US for this reason. I cannot accept blatantly false comparisons that attempt to use this study to demonstrate flu vaccine is ineffective.

I'll take any product, "natural" or "drug" that is proven effective and where the risk of side-effects is outweighed by the benefits.

One last word, many drugs, including vaccines are closer to their "natural" form than some supplements, or even many foods. A drug is simply anything that is "intended for use in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease" and "articles (other than food) intended to affect the structure or any function of the body of man or other animals" (FDA).

I do work in Pharma, I also take supplements, and have suffered side effects from drugs that far outweighed their benefits.

Done ranting

Skurdey.

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#55221 - 09/22/10 03:58 PM Re: Thread drift -- Vaccine efficacy [Re: SkurdeyCat]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5968
Loc: 212 land
Please correct this misquote. This doesn't even closely resemble what I said.

We have no conflict here. Those two bold font sentences in my prior post were written by me to compare angry opposing positions of no one particular on the subject. What's more, I largely agree with what you wrote above, Skurdey.
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