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#5447 - 08/26/03 12:17 PM Re: shoes [Re: tico]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
a more efficient footstrike (i.e. initial midfoot strike, rather than the heel strike, which is actually a braking motion.

Tico,

Besides using different muscles in different shoes which is often more apparent after I run, I find that different shoes cause/force different heel strike. I decided that not only do running shoes have to fit your feet, but that they need to fit your gait. I guess any podiatrist could have told me that.

It seems to me that when I am running well (for me), I am often taking longer strides. I think the longer strides and increased efficiency come from rotating/swiveling my hips more. It seems that I am bound to have more or harder heel strike then. What do you think I should be striving for?

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#5448 - 08/26/03 04:42 PM Re: shoes [Re: LesterLeBlanc]
tico Offline
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Registered: 12/12/00
Posts: 416
Loc: Gardiner, NY
Quote:

Tico:

Sure I've heard of Murray. Impressive accomplishments. But I'm not sure what your point is.

How many people climb barefoot? How many people specifically train by climbing barefoot?

I've climbed barefoot several times -- mostly for fun. I once climbed an 11c barefoot. It was interesting. But I had to climb substantially differently than I would have with shoes. I wouldn't climb barefoot to improve my footwork.

There's a guy in the Gunks who climbs 12c/d in his socks.

What does that mean?






So you're saying that because people don't train a certain way, it's not a viable way to train? That's just ridiculous.

Barefoot climbing may not make your footwork as a whole better, but it will make your feet stronger. Foot strength is a facet of footwork.

How many people run barefoot? Not many. Who does run barefoot? East Africans. Who dominates distance running at any level? East Africans.

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#5449 - 08/26/03 04:56 PM Re: shoes [Re: Mark Heyman]
tico Offline
addict

Registered: 12/12/00
Posts: 416
Loc: Gardiner, NY
Quote:

a more efficient footstrike (i.e. initial midfoot strike, rather than the heel strike, which is actually a braking motion.



It seems to me that when I am running well (for me), I am often taking longer strides. I think the longer strides and increased efficiency come from rotating/swiveling my hips more. It seems that I am bound to have more or harder heel strike then. What do you think I should be striving for?





So if you look at an olympic or world champs performance for any distance above 800 m, you'll notice that the runner is taking about 180 steps per minute (+/- like 2). It's really consistant that way. So the only variable in the speed of running (for the best runners, so you should try to emulate them) is stride length. This is something you can practice, running slow and running fast using the same cadence (~180 steps/min) and changing speeds by lengthening strides.

But you don't want to really be landing on your heel, even when you stretch you stride out long. You want your foot to land on the outside of the foot in line with your hips, then push back. Your heel will touch down, but you won't actually strike the ground with it first. That would produce a braking effect and transmit shock up the leg.

Think of the running motion as a continual fall forward, but you keep sort of catching yourself and prolonging the fall.

This running form doesn't work well unless you keep a fairly high cadence. To increase your cadence, think of your leg as a pendulum; a pendulum with a shorter string will oscillate faster at a given energy, right? so shorten your leg by folding it up after the push-off. This means just try and get your heel close to your ass after each step.

This is all much easier to show you than to write about. Are you climbing this weekend? Anyway, i think if you work on higher cadence at a given speed things will begin to work themselves out naturally. Don't be surprised when you initially feel like you're working harder to run slower; you've been running the same way for years so it takes some time for a different form to become efficient.

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#5450 - 08/26/03 08:30 PM Re: shoes [Re: tico]
LesterLeBlanc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 1915
Loc: Los Angeles
So you're saying that because people don't train a certain way, it's not a viable way to train? That's just ridiculous.

Is it? If no one trains for footwork by climbing barefoot, why would I think it is a viable way to train?

Barefoot climbing may not make your footwork as a whole better, but it will make your feet stronger. Foot strength is a facet of footwork.

I'm willing to keep an open mind, but I've never seen or heard anything that would suggest that barefoot climbing improves footwork. My own experience with barefoot climbing leads me to think that one has to climb very differently without shoes and thus renders any foot strength issue moot. In addition, by your own admission, barefoot climbing may not significantly improve footwork and beyond that, I'm not sure that barefoot climbing makes your feet any stronger than climbing in shoes.

And then ... there's crack climbing ... Ow!

How many people run barefoot? Not many. Who does run barefoot? East Africans. Who dominates distance running at any level? East Africans.

1) Do you believe the only reason the East Africans dominate distance running is because they run barefoot? (I have no idea. But I'm suspicious the only reason is because they run barefoot.)

2) Where are the barefoot climbers that dominate some (any) particular facet of climbing?

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#5451 - 08/27/03 12:55 PM Re: shoes [Re: tico]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
So if you look at an olympic or world champs performance for any distance above 800 m, you'll notice that the runner is taking about 180 steps per minute (+/- like 2)....This running form doesn't work well unless you keep a fairly high cadence. To increase your cadence, think of your leg as a pendulum; a pendulum with a shorter string will oscillate faster at a given energy, right? so shorten your leg by folding it up after the push-off. This means just try and get your heel close to your ass after each step.

All the above (including the deleted) makes sense to me. The only question is, how high a cadence does one need to have to make this useful.? I will try and see if I can make it work for me.

This is all much easier to show you than to write about. Are you climbing this weekend?

I wish – I have to work hard just to get in a couple of local runs. Saving my next climbing trip for Wallaface- can’t wait either.

Anyway, i think if you work on higher cadence at a given speed things will begin to work themselves out naturally.

I run for exercise – not performance. But, the more I do, the more I am able to do. I think speed work is the area where I could benefit most. It would extend my range for fixed amounts of time on longer trails that I enjoy most. It’s probably my weakest spot, and maybe it’s time to address it.

Is there any reason I can’t do “speed work” on the trails I run combined in a regular perhaps shortened run? They are mostly softer than the tracks. Except for worrying about roots they would even e easier than a track barefoot. I run trails because it motivates me. Running on a track could bore me enough to stop running

I’m won’t follow anything blindly but as I wrote a lot of this make sense to me so I will try and see what works for me. Guess I ought to pick up a book on running.

Thanks


Mark

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#5452 - 08/27/03 05:33 PM Re: shoes [Re: LesterLeBlanc]
tico Offline
addict

Registered: 12/12/00
Posts: 416
Loc: Gardiner, NY


Is it? If no one trains for footwork by climbing barefoot, why would I think it is a viable way to train?


Look at the track and field traingin regimens of the 1800's.
People didn't do anything they do today. and they were slow.

Let's hit closer to home. When you were a 5.12 climber, 5.12 was hard because noone pulled on plastic. Now people train in rock gyms and climbing 5.12 isn't exactly as newsworthy as it used to be.



1) Do you believe the only reason the East Africans dominate distance running is because they run barefoot? (I have no idea. But I'm suspicious the only reason is because they run barefoot.)


It's a facet of their training missing from the regimens of non-dominant runners. to be great, emulate greatness.


2) Where are the barefoot climbers that dominate some (any) particular facet of climbing?


Do you know that no dominant climbers train barefoot? The key word here is TRAIN. Climbing barefoot is _usually_ harder than shoe'd climbing. Just like barefoot running, you TRAIN barefoot, then PERFORM shoe'd. And I've already told you about Murray and his domination in the past.

Let's try eine kleine gedankenexperiment:

ClimberX does the boxcar traverse almost every day. It close to his bouldering limit. He wants to be able to do two full out-and-back laps, but simply doing the problem over and over again isn't getting him closer to that goal. He starts to attempt the problem barefoot. Wiring the problem barefoot leads to strength and technique advances, because it's harder to climb V5 barefoot than in shoes. _This also leads to the problem feeling much easier in shoes_. Reworking and wiring the problem barefoot is the additional training stress needed to do the laps in shoes.

Now, what part of the thought experiment do you refute? Where does barefoot climbing not produce a training effect?

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#5453 - 08/27/03 05:39 PM Re: shoes [Re: Mark Heyman]
tico Offline
addict

Registered: 12/12/00
Posts: 416
Loc: Gardiner, NY
Quote:



All the above (including the deleted) makes sense to me. The only question is, how high a cadence does one need to have to make this useful.? I will try and see if I can make it work for me.

I run for exercise – not performance. But, the more I do, the more I am able to do. I think speed work is the area where I could benefit most. It would extend my range for fixed amounts of time on longer trails that I enjoy most. It’s probably my weakest spot, and maybe it’s time to address it.

Is there any reason I can’t do “speed work” on the trails I run combined in a regular perhaps shortened run? They are mostly softer than the tracks. Except for worrying about roots they would even e easier than a track barefoot. I run trails because it motivates me. Running on a track could bore me enough to stop running






It's not about hitting certain numbers. If you can't spin at 180 steps/min, just work on hitting 120% of you current steps/min. It's also not about performance in a time sense. Running more efficiently makes running _easier_, more fun, more comfortable, etc.

Yeah, do speedwork on trails. Like go 1 min hard, 1 min easy, 2 min hard, 1 min easy, etc. The swedish call it fahrtlek, or "speed play". It's absolutely essential to be able to change speeds quickly and without a ton of stress.

Track work sucks and it hurts. Don't do it unless you really want to hit certain times at certain races.

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#5454 - 08/28/03 12:01 AM Re: shoes [Re: Mark Heyman]
GeeVee Offline
Auto Reply

Registered: 11/14/00
Posts: 4403
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Mark:

A few more comments from an over-the-hill runner...

While I still don't buy tico's "Shoeless Joe" notion, much of his commentary on gait is applicable to mere mortals such as you and I. His pendulum analogy is good - one of the easiest ways of lengthening your stride (and ultimately going faster) simply entails picking your knees up a little higher. A fairly relaxed lower leg will naturally swing out further and you'll tend to land with a flatter foot plant (reducing that jarring heel strike which simply slows you down and transmits a boat-load of shock back up your leg with every step) which sets you up for a nice roll forward and push off from the ball of the foot. It's the faling forward thing tico referred to (but note - that's the sensation of falling forward, not leaning forward, which you absolutely don't want to do). My wife was totally sceptical about the knee lift thing, until I convinced her to try it one day and she was amazed at how her speed increased almost effortlessly as a result. Bill Bowerman used to do a lot of drills with his runners which involved bounding exercises to work on lifting the knees. If you're looking for a book (and lord knows there are so many of them out there) on running, look for somebody who espouses Bowerman's techniques (or something by the man himself). Don't know if tico would agree with that suggestion - this was the man who invented the waffle for Nike shoes after all. Oh, on the leaning forward thing... one of my favorite visualization techniques was to imagine I was like a puppet, with strings holding me up, pulling my weight up and off of my feet... oops, probably shouldn't get into visualization stuff here, we're already way off topic. As for tico's comment about track work... yeah, it sucks, it hurts - but it can also be a huge amount of fun, and often triggers a big post-workout endorphine rush. It helps to do it with others, particularly when you're new to it, so you can get some help with the whole pacing thing (it's kind of hard to stand on the line and say to yourself that you're going to run a 1/4 in xx seconds) but be careful you don't go out there with folks who are a lot faster than yourself - you may well hurt something. I was frequently too stupid to back off and ended up pissing blood one night after running grudge-match sprints against kids 15 years younger than me - yikes. The flip side of that was one of the trippiest workouts I ever did, running flat-out quarters solo on the old Queensborough Community College cinder track in near darkness - I swear it felt like I was flying!

One thing that really helped me was having someone critique my running style on videotape (my old coach was a big exponent of this). Once you get past the initial shock of watching yourself you soon start to pick up on the nasty nuances of your style.

There you go, my 50 cents for the evening, for what it's worth.
_________________________
So long as you can boogie you ain't too old.

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#5455 - 08/30/03 11:05 PM Re: shoes [Re: GeeVee]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
More $0.02 from an OTH runner who was never any good in the first place.

I don't know what kind of trails you run on, maybe they're groomed and covered with fine wood chips, but the trails I ran would be the last place to be moving fast. I'm talking about real trails, the kind that go somewhere. Sure it's fun but if you really don't want to twist an ankle, use the trails for long runs or strength (uphill) workouts rather than speed. Find a rubberized track instead.

I always got a kick out of that stride length idea. basically it goes like this - the only difference between the X runners that win and the back of the packers that don't is stride length, so work on increasing that. (I'm not trying to quote tico, but rather parroting back countless Runners World pablum) Which of course would send weekend warriors off with exaggerated motions more likely to create biomechanical problems than anything else.

The fact is that moving faster at a given turnover e.g. 180/min, will naturally and necessarily produce a longer stride length. Distance divided by number of strides, ya know? It would be just as accurate (and pointless) to say the only difference between those guys and you is that THEY RUN FASTER, so go try to run faster.

Of course my other problem with the running mags were the "Anyone can run a 32 min 10K" articles (BULLSH:T) and the advice from elite runners to - for example -start every workout with 3 to 5 miles at an easy 5:45 pace.

Mike - who has never run or climbed barefoot, and hasn't been convinced otherwise

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#5456 - 09/10/03 02:17 PM Re: shoes [Re: tico]
strat Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4242
So, I did it last night.
Didn't feel like driving over to the gym and use the stairmaster so I went next door and did laps on the High School track. I took my shoes and socks off and ran the last two laps barefoot. I am not a runner, but, I can benefit from stronger/tougher feet so, what do I have to lose?

Anyway, the observation that I made instantly was that my foot was landing and taking off differently without the shoes on then they were with the shoes on. With shoes, it seems like my heel strikes the ground first and the ball of my foot leaves the ground first. Without shoes, the ball of my foot hit the ground first and toes were leaving the ground.

Was I faster? no clue,
Will it help me? no clue.

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