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#5427 - 08/12/03 05:17 PM Re: shoes [Re: cranken]
tico Offline
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Registered: 12/12/00
Posts: 416
Loc: Gardiner, NY
Shoes with a urethane midsole, rather than EVA or blown EVA, are good (enough) protection against stone bruises, for most trails.

The problem is that these shoes are usually heavy. I'm a fan of New Balance because they offer a lot of widths in a couple of their models (also they used to give me shoes for free, and they're more made in the US than the other companies).

An alternative, that I recommend, is to buy the lightest pair of racing flats that you can imagie running in, then start running very low mileage and gradually increase. Recall that humans are built to travel on trails, with minimal shoes. We've just been weakened by years of being supported by shoes instead of sinews. Go to the track and run a couple of miles barefoot once a week or so as well.

The foot strength gained also translates well to climbing.

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#5428 - 08/15/03 07:41 PM Re: shoes [Re: tico]
GeeVee Offline
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Registered: 11/14/00
Posts: 4403
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
An alternative, that I recommend, is to buy the lightest pair of racing flats that you can imagie running in

Been there, done that, and I wouldn't recommend it. Racing flats are not built to take the kind of pounding that they'll encounter in trail running, and you'll blow through them in no time at all. Not to mention the kind of beating your feet are going to take, especially on rocky trails (try the stream bed start on the Greylock Gallop if you don't believe me). You're just inviting injury. Flats are fine if you're running something as benign as the carriage roads around Mohonk and Minnewaska, but not much good for anything rougher than that.
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So long as you can boogie you ain't too old.

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#5429 - 08/15/03 10:29 PM Re: shoes [Re: cranken]
LesterLeBlanc Offline
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Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 1916
Loc: Los Angeles
I have to deal with extremely steep and rocky mountain trails and I've found the North Face Ultra 100s to hold up really well under these conditions. There's no way I would run these same trails in regular road runners ... tried it once ... will never try it again.

I think overall training will beef up most people's tolerance for pain when trail running, but things like high arches are not "fixable" through training and is a potentially dangerous course to take for some people. There is no substitute for a properly fitted shoe with support for the arches. Flat feet is often a different story. Many people with "flat" feet simply have low arches and this rarely creates any problems for running. People with true flat feet have gait issues and this should be addressed specifically.

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#5430 - 08/18/03 07:35 PM Re: shoes [Re: GeeVee]
tico Offline
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Registered: 12/12/00
Posts: 416
Loc: Gardiner, NY
You systematically ran gradually progressive longer and rougher distances in flats? Or did you just run your normal distances in lighter shoes, and get hurt?

I ran the Massanutten Mountain 100 miler (it's _all_ rocks. for 100 miles) in a pair of adidas racing flats. They worked fine for about 80 miles, then i would've liked to have a small toe-bumper.

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#5431 - 08/18/03 07:40 PM Re: shoes [Re: LesterLeBlanc]
tico Offline
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Registered: 12/12/00
Posts: 416
Loc: Gardiner, NY
High arches, which pose a shock absorbtion issue because the foot won't deform enough to absorb the stress of imapact, can be addressed though nominal gait modification, as well as the tretching and strenghening of the musculature of the feet.

Have either of you actually tried a regimented training program including barefoot or light-shoe running? Or are you just talking? It's worked for me, as well as the dozen or so people i've trained with for marathon and above.

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#5432 - 08/18/03 08:17 PM Re: shoes [Re: tico]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
Have either of you actually tried a regimented training program including barefoot or light-shoe running?

tico,

Are you kidding - Should I start out at three steps or four. Seriously, I struggle to walk the half dozen across my stoned driveway. I can train barefoot on a clean beach - but that’s not available to everyone, nor does it help me much anywhere else. It is kind of fun and uses different muscles - but then just changing shoe brands does that. Don't know how some of you don't see much difference!


Mark

PS: I wish I was better off barefoot - but when I take my shoes off I am faced with reality.

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#5433 - 08/18/03 10:41 PM Re: shoes [Re: tico]
GeeVee Offline
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Registered: 11/14/00
Posts: 4403
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Have either of you actually tried a regimented training program including barefoot or light-shoe running?

What for? I think I missed the point of this somewhere. Why mess with your feet when a pair of perfectly good pair of sneakers will keep them comfy and happy?
_________________________
So long as you can boogie you ain't too old.

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#5434 - 08/19/03 04:12 PM Re: shoes [Re: GeeVee]
tico Offline
addict

Registered: 12/12/00
Posts: 416
Loc: Gardiner, NY
Simply put, you'll run faster and farther with stronger feet, no matter what shoe you're wearing.
Stronger feet make edging easier as well.

But I think your sentiments are exemplary of why I don't race anymore. Too many people like to fix things with money rather than work. I've been running in the same pair of sneakers for nearly 4 years now, because my footstrike is light, because I trained barefoot for years. Go ahead, buy fancy, overbuilt, petrolium product, sweatshop-built shoes for your underdeveloped feet. Buy them every 500 miles like the companies tell you to. Buy them with gore-tex so your tender feet don't get moist when it rains. Then get into your AWD car (because you feel uneasy about driving in snow), drive up to a trail, run a few miles, drive down to a bar and have a $10 sandwich and a $5 beer, then fill up you car with gas and drive back home and get on the internet and spray about it.

Later, send the access fund and amc and nature conservancy some money and feel confident in what a appreciative-of-nature envirnomentalist you are.

you like how you just want to wear shoes and i've painted you as an evil oil-baron slaver? goddamn hippies get you every time like that.

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#5435 - 08/19/03 10:09 PM Re: shoes [Re: tico]
GeeVee Offline
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Registered: 11/14/00
Posts: 4403
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
You forgot the tirade about the nasty petro-chemical helmet when you climb, which shouldn't be necessary anyway if you gradually ease into a regimen of bare-headed climbing, slowly building up the ability of your head to absorb the force of falling rocks, starting with small pebbles and in time coming to withstand chunks of rock the size of small cars (or better yet SUVs).
_________________________
So long as you can boogie you ain't too old.

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#5436 - 08/20/03 01:06 PM Re: shoes [Re: tico]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
Simply put, you'll run faster and farther with stronger feet, no matter what shoe you're wearing.
Stronger feet make edging easier as well.


Sure – My feet get stronger running with shoes too.

But I think your sentiments are exemplary of why I don't race anymore. Too many people like to fix things with money rather than work.

It sounds as if you are preparing for a different race than everyone else. They expect to wear shoes. Most people run faster in shoes and when racing they expect to wear them. Really helps them avoid injury too.

I've been running in the same pair of sneakers for nearly 4 years now, because my footstrike is light, because I trained barefoot for years.

I’ve been training for years too, but it has and will not get me to the level of running you have written about. None of your last statement guarantees that you have not caused yourself significant damage that you will feel as an elder. Truth is that not may people can run the kind of distance you write of without causing themselves damage from repetitive motions, normal and unintentional impact. I wish I could run as far as you – barefoot or no, but I am sure that I would cause me damage that I would strongly regret. I actually limit the time and distance I run, as well as the surfaces I train on for his purpose.


Edited by Mark Heyman (08/20/03 01:48 PM)

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