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#5437 - 08/20/03 02:06 PM Re: shoes [Re: Mark Heyman]
webmaster Offline

veteran

Registered: 01/06/00
Posts: 1273
Loc: New Paltz (Kerhonkson, actuall...
Hey Mark.

I just want to chime in on this barefoot subject. Though I don't run nearly as much as Tico, I was intrigued by his suggestion about training barefoot. So yesterday, while hiking around the Preserve, I took off my Tevas and walked barefoot for about a mile. It felt pretty good. I even ran a few short sections, though my feet are still pretty whimpy and sensitive. But the experience was enough to take a deeper look into it. I've resolved to toughen up my feet a bit and find out if what Tico's saying bears out.

I don't know why you say you're "sure" it would cause you long term damage. It's seems a premature assumption. Why write it off before trying. For myself, I'm going to slowly try building up to it and see what happens. I'm really shocked at how weak and overly sensitive my feet have become wearing shoes all the time.

If I was apply the state of my feet to my whole body, I could see myself as some overweight couch potato sitting watching the TV listening to a program (sponsored by Frito Lay) about how getting in shape only causes long term damage.

We could just as easily apply this reasoning to climbers--causing long term damage by not wearing gloves!!

-em

Wisdom is the intersection of knowledge and experience
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#5438 - 08/20/03 03:39 PM Re: shoes [Re: Mark Heyman]
tico Offline
addict

Registered: 12/12/00
Posts: 416
Loc: Gardiner, NY
Do as you see fit. I'm just trying to impart some of my experience to runners who may not have acheived everything they've desired from their running career. Though you remind me of this 71 year old guy who I trained from walking a 5K to running a sub 4 hour marathon. Every step of the way it was "i can't do long runs, i'm old; i can't do speedwork, i'm old; i can't run with a group, i'm old; i can't run barefoot, i'm old".

Think of the barefooting as bouldering for your feet. It's more stress than normal for a short period of time, that translates to better biomechanical efficiency over a long period, because the effort of running in shoes is reduced with the better footstrike you'll develop. I think maybe you don't understand this; barefoot running is a tool that makes you run faster and farther and easier _in shoes_.

It's kind of funny how vehemently you two are against this inncouous little training method. When I was competitve, I'd try _anything_ to keep up with the Kenyans. They told me about barefooting (which is fun) so I did it. They told me about ugali (cornmeal mush, it's not very tasty) so i ate it.

Why are your minds so closed? What's the point? We're animals, why would walking around in a natural state impart long-term damage? Better build a bubble and get into it if that's your take on "life".

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#5439 - 08/20/03 08:24 PM Re: shoes [Re: tico]
LesterLeBlanc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 1916
Loc: Los Angeles
I know two people with high arches that created significant damage to their feet because they thought they could "train" their feet so they could run without footwear that gave them appropriate support.

Despite that, I would give Tico's suggestions more credence if he hand't launched into an odd diatribe about wearing shoes. (Has he eliminated all petroleum products or all products made in Thrid World countries from his life?)

I run about 4-5 miles a day ... on asphalt. I trail run and hike on very steep, rocky trails 6-10 miles once or twice a week. My feet take plenty of pounding. I ain't going barefoot.

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#5440 - 08/20/03 08:34 PM Re: shoes [Re: webmaster]
LesterLeBlanc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 1916
Loc: Los Angeles
If I was apply the state of my feet to my whole body, I could see myself as some overweight couch potato sitting watching the TV listening to a program (sponsored by Frito Lay) about how getting in shape only causes long term damage.

We could just as easily apply this reasoning to climbers--causing long term damage by not wearing gloves!!


I think you're oversimplying the issue and not considering that we're discussing situations that involve people that have foot problems like extremely high arches. Most people don't have feet that will give them any significant problems. People who believe they have high arches or flat feet don't actually have them to the degree that they cause gait problems or pain. Some, though, do have pronounced foot problems and while there's a possibility that training can make these issue moot, there's also the possibility that without the proper footwear these people can sustain injury.

If you don't have any real foot issues, sure, go out and run barefoot. Who cares? Personally, I don't see any signifcant advantage to training barefoot. I mean, there's no way I can train for my mountain hiking by going barefoot. My trails are far too rocky. That sort of training would end all my hiking.

And your climbing metaphor ... why the switch to the hands? Why not stay on the feet? Do we climb with climbing shoes on? Yes. Do we train for climbing by climbing barefoot? No.

Yuki used to climb barefoot at Rat Rock. So he could train his big toe to become stronger? No. Just so he wouldn't wear out the old pair of hand-me-down Fires he had. When the CCC chipped in and bought him a new pair of climbing shoes, he never climbed barefoot again.

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#5441 - 08/21/03 01:34 PM Re: shoes [Re: webmaster]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
Evan,

I don't know why you say you're "sure" it would cause you long term damage.

I wasn’t saying (intentionally) that running barefoot would necessarily cause damage except from the toe stubbing and resulting breakage that would occur when I get tired. I was referring to lots of mileage, especially if they are on hard flat surfaces. I believe that Tico’s mileage on a regular basis would cause me damage. My father also warns me not to run too much because he sees lots and lots of hip and knee replacements. Personally I use pain as a judge of how much is to much. I think that if I had time, I could train to be able to run a very occasional marathon.

I broke a big toe over ten years ago in shoes and it still causes me problems. It’s also the cause of my problems with performance climbing shoes. The likelihood of this kind of damage alone is enough reason for me to wear shoes on most runs. I occasionally get the chance to run on a beach, and then I do enjoy running barefoot.

I'm really shocked at how weak and overly sensitive my feet have become wearing shoes all the time.

Sounds like my feet are similar to mine. I’m not shocked about mine cause they have been that way since I can remember. Can’t take heat on blacktop either.

We could just as easily apply this reasoning to climbers--causing long term damage by not wearing gloves!!

Naw, under normal circumstances skin grows back. Joint damage can be permanent

Lester & Tico
Despite that, I would give Tico's suggestions more credence if he hadn’t launched into an odd diatribe

I agree here.

I try to run 5+ miles three times a week on soft ground. IE pine barrens trails, hard sand covered with pine needles and roots. My knees and ankles do not like asphalt, and cement even less. I take every opportunity I get to run rough rocky trails as far as I can without getting to tired 5-10 miles. If I run when I am tired, I cause a lot more hip/knee/ankle/foot pain. But these opportunities are rare. This weekend I will get to run on the AT around High Point NJ. I found that I do enjoy running for runnings sake, and that realization (not now new) was a surprise to me.

I want to say that I respect Tico’s running experience, and that if I had the time I might willingly let him act as a trainer, unless I became sure that I was causing myself to much damage. I never thought I could become a real runner, I just started because I found it a very efficient form of exercise time wise. I also find that it works my upper torso and upper body far more than most people think. In other words being in shape running wise always helps my climbing, and not just legs and feet.



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#5442 - 08/21/03 04:43 PM Re: shoes [Re: LesterLeBlanc]
tico Offline
addict

Registered: 12/12/00
Posts: 416
Loc: Gardiner, NY
Let me simplify this, since there is some obvious misunderstanding: you TRAIN barefoot on a smooth surface, then PERFORM shod, on whatever surface. You do NOT TRAIN on rocky surfaces barefoot.

Your friends with high arches, maybe their program wasn't well thought-out?

The significant advantage to training barefoot for trail applications is the development of a proprioceptive reflex that encourage flowing over terrain, rather than ploughing through it. Also encourages a more efficient footstrike (i.e. initial midfoot strike, rather than the heel strike, which is actually a braking motion.).

Every heard of Bob Murray, Nick? Like Center El Murray (V8), Left and Right El Murray (V6), the Murray Lunge (V6) (all at hueco. Also see countless other hard problems in the southwest)? All done barefoot. Lonely Bob (who started climbing at my alma mater, Livezy rock) often noted how he thought many of his problems would be hard with shoes on. I started climbing barefoot, and still do. It's fun, and on steep rock it gives you a better idea of how to use your feet. the gunks is an ideal place to try this.



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#5443 - 08/21/03 04:57 PM Re: shoes [Re: tico]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
Let me simplify this, since there is some obvious misunderstanding: you TRAIN barefoot on a smooth surface, then PERFORM shod

OK Makes much more sense. Sorry guess I was expecting anything from a guy who can run 100 miles. As I wrote I can run barefoot on a beach, but I would have a hard time barefoot on any hard surface.

The significant advantage to training barefoot for trail applications is the development of a proprioceptive reflex that encourage flowing over terrain, rather than ploughing through

Agreed

Also encourages a more efficient footstrike (i.e. initial midfoot strike, rather than the heel strike, which is actually a braking motion.).

Good point. I can work with that even with shoes. I've felt what you are saying barefoot and that helps too.

I started climbing barefoot, and still do. It's fun, and on steep rock it gives you a better idea of how to use your feet. the gunks is an ideal place to try this.

Question is do you use chalk on you feet? Oh, never mind you aren't going to pay for it, are you?


Edited by Mark Heyman (08/21/03 06:29 PM)

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#5444 - 08/21/03 06:18 PM Re: shoes [Re: tico]
empicard Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2955
Loc: LI, NY
Quote:

because I trained barefoot for years.



just curious, how are your knees and back?
_________________________
tOOthless

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

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#5445 - 08/25/03 06:35 PM Re: shoes [Re: empicard]
tico Offline
addict

Registered: 12/12/00
Posts: 416
Loc: Gardiner, NY
Quote:

Quote:

because I trained barefoot for years.



just curious, how are your knees and back?






I ruptered my L4 and L5 discs in a 25 foot bouldering fall several years ago, and then didn't get it looked at for a couple of years (during which i ran a 100 miler). The back's fine now (after some cortisone shots), though it bothers me when i climb long slab routes.

I had some IT band syndrome while i was running 120 mile weeks, but everyone who runs 120 mile weeks has someting hurt.

My chronic problems got better as my gait got more efficient as i ran more quality barefoot miles (i.e. i started to do most of my speedwork at the track shoeless).

You have to stretch a lot as you add barefoot miles. Yoga helps as well.

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#5446 - 08/26/03 07:15 AM Re: shoes [Re: tico]
LesterLeBlanc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 1916
Loc: Los Angeles
Tico:

Sure I've heard of Murray. Impressive accomplishments. But I'm not sure what your point is.

How many people climb barefoot? How many people specifically train by climbing barefoot?

I've climbed barefoot several times -- mostly for fun. I once climbed an 11c barefoot. It was interesting. But I had to climb substantially differently than I would have with shoes. I wouldn't climb barefoot to improve my footwork.

There's a guy in the Gunks who climbs 12c/d in his socks.

What does that mean?


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