This spring there was a thread going about "the pin" on Three Doves and whether or not it should be replaced. Well, I guess it was mostly agreed that it was good. Of course this was the pin protecting the second pitch crux. There is (was) also a pin protecting last bit of the first pitch. Yesterday I belayed a friend who pitched onto that pin from just shy of the finishing holds, kind of a whipper. She had the pin backed up with a #1 C3 just left. Leader lowered, had a goo and drink and went back up and sent. I followed and found that the pin looked pretty corroded and wobbled a bit. I clipped a shoulder length sling to it and on the third hard pull yanked the pin right out. For the typical 5.8 leader these moves were already thought provoking and without the pin become more so, any feelings about replacing it?

I'm guessing you would have told us if it had left a gear placement?

I'm very glad you pulled it, what a ticking time bomb. Your friend should go buy a lottery ticket.

Whoa.

I led that pitch earlier this year, had a piece a few feet below the pin in a horizontal, IIRC.

I did not find a piece off to the side. If that piece is a solid placement, or if a solid placement can be had in the hole where the pin was, then I guess it shouldn't get replaced, right?

It's already kind of a runout to the GT ledge from the pin (at least for weenies like me!). You want to have something there. If the pin was the only good piece there then I think it should be replaced.

I know RG would say let the pin be gone, the route should be as it naturally exists, and weenies like me can climb any one of the other five or six climbs on the Arrow wall to get to the GT ledge if we don't like the pro!

But I think the grandfathered fixed pro rule is a sensible compromise, so if there's no good placement there replace the pin!

I used to really like that pin, but clearly I had mis-placed my trust. A #1 C3 is not exactly the kind of pro I want to whip on to, and I can't remember if the pin was an angle, knifeblade or what, so I guess someone will have to go take a look. Short of a nice cam or nut placement having been created, I would replace the pin.

I couldn't have said it any better myself (except that I would never accuse anyone exercising their god-given right to back off a weenie---I myself yield to no one in total back-offs.).

There's already one small cam placement there, and maybe two next to each other without the pin---we don't know without going up there and having a look. Maybe a Ballnut fits. So I say leave the pin out. The small pro you get may indeed be dicey, but at least it is an understood risk (as opposed to a pin you think is good but actually is not) that you can either choose or reject.

It is true that Preserve rules allow for the replacement of the pin. That does not, however, mean it must be replaced.

Glad no one was hurt here.

This concern comes up repeatedly and I'm still conflicted over whether to replace or not. Part of me wants to see replacement of pitons in places where pro is warranted and nothing else seems to fit, which may be the case on Three Doves P1, and is the case on the roof move of Zachariah, to name just one other example. However, as much discussed in earlier threads on this topic, pitons have a finite life and can end up becoming untrustworthy even when seemingly sound.

So what to do? The traditional, sporting style of deferring leading routes sans piton until the leader feels "no fall" confident has its appeal. The rock isn't degraded by repeated piton placements, the route acquires a "serious" reputation, and leaders are challenged with a vital do-or-do-not situation as opposed to questioning whether or not to clip an in-situ pin. That's a lofty standard. But has it ever really been the standard at the Gunks? Consider Three Doves. How long has there been a pin on the first pitch? And one might as well ask how many climbers willingly skip the pin on P2 on principle? (Or did so in past years, prior to the advent of really small cams that can substitute for that piton.)

Maybe the question ought to remain open until a few parties go up on the route and carefully search out whether there are viable nut or cam alternatives to the now-gone pin. Why don't people report back and describe options?

I would say do not replace it!

As RG says, the risk is understood. At that point the leader can decide whether to go for it or not, and the down climbing isn't that bad at the point where one would commit. Also, a well placed #1 C3 is plenty strong enough to hold the fall at that point, given how much rope is out... and you could use a screamer if you wanted extra peace of mind. That said, I seem to recall more placement than just the single C3, and as others mention, perhaps the missing pin has opened other options.

There is also a good TCU placement that is approximately 6 feet above and a bit right of where the pin was.

I have gotten a blue or green alien in that spot and it is a good piece.

The number one C3 is good, can be placed with lobes tucked into a little constriction. Other more shallow smaller cams will go in and beside where the pin sat and could be equalized. The pin was not very deep, the bottom lip of the horizontal sticks out past the top and supported the bottom edge of the pin. It really wasn't that great of a pin placement in the first place. Also, a lot of water and mud washing down the face collects in that crack and contributed to the deterioration of the steel, there was all this hardened dry dirt wedge in between the rails that I could barely chip out with a nut tool. Point is I agree that the pin gave a false sense of security.