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#55099 - 09/20/10 09:42 PM Re: Thread drift -- Vaccine efficacy [Re: Mike Rawdon]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5968
Loc: 212 land
The cited American Journal of Clinical Nutrition article was published in May 2010, not Mar. 2010 as stated. As with simalar academic journals, a non-subscriber may see only abstracts free of charge. This isn't much help:

Mitsuyoshi Urashima, Takaaki Segawa, Minoru Okazaki, Mana Kurihara, Yasuyuki Wada, and Hiroyuki Ida
Randomized trial of vitamin D supplementation to prevent seasonal influenza A in schoolchildren
Am. J. Clinical Nutrition, May 2010; 91: 1255 - 1260.
......research-article Vitamins, minerals, and phytochemicals...to prevent seasonal influenza A in schoolchildren...association between serum vitamin D intake and recent...the relation between vitamin D and physician-diagnosed influenza or delineated the...


Edited by oenophore (09/20/10 10:16 PM)
Edit Reason: found the cited atricle
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#55111 - 09/21/10 01:59 AM Re: Thread drift -- Vaccine efficacy [Re: oenophore]
chip Offline
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Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
There is no question that our "modern" diets are not always packed with every vitamin and trace elements, but they are better than it has been for most of man's existence. It seems that almost every month someone "discovers" that another vitamin can be helpful for some function or another. Most people simply don't eat 6 or 7 fresh fruits and vegetables daily and so we should supplement. Some of the stated claims in this article, such as % of effectivness for vaccines are laughable but there may be some validity to the finding that it helps boost immune response to viral infections. I have yet to find the kid that will turn down a Flintstone Vitamin.

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#55122 - 09/21/10 10:16 AM Re: Thread drift -- Vaccine efficacy [Re: chip]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5968
Loc: 212 land
There is no question that our "modern" diets are not always packed with every vitamin and trace elements, but they are better than it has been for most of man's existence.

There's an on-the-one-hand-on-the-other-hand aspect to this. In our contemporary land, food is more sanitary than it used to be, labels tell us what's in a food package and how much of several nutritional components are to be found within, a greater variety of foods are offered, produce is available year-round, etc. There's no doubt that an enlightened consumer can eat a healthy diet.
I don't watch children's TV shows, but I've heard that they're full of ads for unhealthy food. My wife, who teaches in Harlem, has told me that it's no use going out for lunch, for only junk and greasy fast foods are available. I suspect the same is true in many an "inner city" (remember when they used to be called slums?) On a couple of websites, I read Michelle Obama's suggestion that restaurants offer healthier food alternatives. Comments by readers on this are full of denunciations of the mind-your-own-@$$%$^^$-business variety. So many get unhealthier as they age, driving up medical costs. To quote SkurdeyCat, "If your child isn't already getting their RDA of D3 each day, you should re-evaluate your parenting skills." And if you aren't getting that, you're foolish as well. I'll remain unvaccinated and rely on D3.
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#55126 - 09/21/10 01:36 PM Re: Thread drift -- Vaccine efficacy [Re: Mike Rawdon]
SkurdeyCat Offline
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Registered: 08/14/03
Posts: 40
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Mike Rawdon

I find it hard to believe that flu vaccines are ineffective 99% of the time. Sadly, the link offered in the article is broken. But since it was back to another NatNews story, I wasn't expecting much.


Read carefully:

Originally Posted By: NaturalNews

Flu vaccines, according to the latest scientific evidence, achieve a 1 percent reduction in influenza symptoms


Even if this "latest research" was flawless, the stated endpoint is "reduction of symptoms", not whether anyone actually contracted the flu, so every participant that reported a fever, ache, headache or tiredness could be counted as a "fail".

As soon as you see apples and oranges comparisons like this you know you are into snake oil salesmen, or politicians.

If you are really worried about threats to your health, have you evaluated your exposure to DiHydrogen Monoxide?

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#55145 - 09/21/10 05:08 PM Re: Thread drift -- Vaccine efficacy [Re: SkurdeyCat]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
"Unfortunately, such a trial will never be conducted because vaccine pushers already know this trial would show their vaccines to be all but useless. So they won't subject vaccines to any real science that compares it to vitamin D.
"
excuses, bad links, and generally unavailable links...I can make up anything I want too...

Although I wouldn't include Flu vaccines in the important vaccine category, there is absolutely no question about the vast benefits compared to detrimental effects of the important vaccines we use today.

There was just another study showing that there are no detrimental side effects from some vaccine that contained mercury. If you want I'll find a link.


Edited by Mark Heyman (09/21/10 05:18 PM)

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#55156 - 09/21/10 06:58 PM Re: Thread drift -- Vaccine efficacy [Re: Mark Heyman]
SkurdeyCat Offline
newbie

Registered: 08/14/03
Posts: 40
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Mark Heyman

There was just another study showing that there are no detrimental side effects from some vaccine that contained mercury. If you want I'll find a link.

(Emphasis mine) Why bother, there have been dozens, if not hundreds of these studies. Clearly anyone who is deceived by this NaturalNews mumbo jumbo can't make informed decisions on their own anyway, and deserves to be sold all the snake oil they can afford.

There is a risk associated with all drugs, that's why you need prescriptions, you and your doctor (preferably just your doctor) evaluate those risks against the benefits.
In the case of mandatory vaccinations, society as a whole benefits from the program, and yes, some tiny number of innocent defenseless cuddly children will suffer serious side effects. Without those vaccines, thousands would die. Ever check the fatality rate for measles? What about birth defects caused by rubella?
No legitimate study has ever shown a link between any vaccine and autism, but even if there was one, the benefits as a whole would still outweigh the risks.

To pre-empt the response that I'm being deceived by Big Pharma propaganda, perhaps, but at least it takes a much more sophisticated con to fool me than this junk.

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#55161 - 09/21/10 07:35 PM Re: Thread drift -- Vaccine efficacy [Re: SkurdeyCat]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5968
Loc: 212 land
There is lots of ardent finger pointing on this issue:

Drug manufacturers are interested only in their bottom line, not public health!

Those who advocate natural over pharmaceutical remedies are demented or snake oil salesmen!


And so it goes. I'm only a layman here, but like everyone else, have an interest in maintaining my health by any reasonable means. A book will soon be published which maintains that no vaccine has ever been proven safe of effective. It will be chock full of endnote references from reputable publications. The thesis, I'll agree, is amazing and hard to believe yet unless it's refuted via citation of similar scholarly works, it is not to be dismissed out of hand.
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#55180 - 09/21/10 10:36 PM Re: Thread drift -- Vaccine efficacy [Re: oenophore]
MarcC Offline
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Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Originally Posted By: oenophore
A book will soon be published which maintains that no vaccine has ever been proven safe of effective.

Exactly what kind of protocol and experimental design would be able to *prove* something as "safe"?

Regarding "...no vaccine has ever been proven ... effective.", uh, bull shit.
Polio is but one of hundreds of examples.
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#55187 - 09/22/10 12:26 AM Re: Thread drift -- Vaccine efficacy [Re: MarcC]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Originally Posted By: MarcC
Originally Posted By: oenophore
A book will soon be published which maintains that no vaccine has ever been proven safe of effective.

Exactly what kind of protocol and experimental design would be able to *prove* something as "safe"?

Regarding "...no vaccine has ever been proven ... effective.", uh, bull shit.
Polio is but one of hundreds of examples.


Smallpox has been completely eradicated due to vacination.

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#55216 - 09/22/10 03:03 PM Re: Thread drift -- Vaccine efficacy [Re: oenophore]
SkurdeyCat Offline
newbie

Registered: 08/14/03
Posts: 40
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: oenophore

Those who advocate natural over pharmaceutical remedies are demented or snake oil salesmen![/b]


Please correct this misquote. This doesn't even closely resemble what I said.

However, if I may correct your re-invention of my words; Those who advocate natural over pharmaceutical remedies, automatically accepting that all natural products are effective and safe, and that all drugs are ineffective and unsafe, deserve to be sold all the snake oil they can afford. Equally, those who believe that all drugs are completely harmless and will always cure their illness, and that all natural remedies are just quackery, deserve the liver and kidney damage that will surely follow.

There is a full range of products out there. There are harmless snake oils, and dangerous snake oils. There are expensive drugs that are only marginally effective, with serious side effects, aggressively promoted by Big Pharma to increase their bottom line. There are inexpensive "natural" products that have been scientifically proven to enhance health or save lives. There are inexpensive drugs that are safe and effective. There are drugs and supplements out there that could save lives but may never see the light of day because drug companies wouldn't make enough profit. There are even products whose manufacturer's don't want clinical studies because if proven effective they legally become drugs, and are subject to stricter regulations and increased costs.

I'm not a pharmacologist or statistician, but when I can see gaping flaws in the claims supporting some new natural wonder cure, I know enough to stay away. That Vitamin D study was published in a respected peer reviewed journal, I haven't read it, but I'll accept the summary provided above. Vitamin D is recognized as important in preventing many illnesses, it is already added to dairy products in the US for this reason. I cannot accept blatantly false comparisons that attempt to use this study to demonstrate flu vaccine is ineffective.

I'll take any product, "natural" or "drug" that is proven effective and where the risk of side-effects is outweighed by the benefits.

One last word, many drugs, including vaccines are closer to their "natural" form than some supplements, or even many foods. A drug is simply anything that is "intended for use in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease" and "articles (other than food) intended to affect the structure or any function of the body of man or other animals" (FDA).

I do work in Pharma, I also take supplements, and have suffered side effects from drugs that far outweighed their benefits.

Done ranting

Skurdey.

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