folks,

landowner for cranberry ledges is asking questions about opening the site for climbing access.

questions present.

1. would folks be willing to pay a yearly fee for access.

2. if so what would one pay for such pass on private land.

3. 10 a year

4. 15 a year

5. 20 a year

6. 25 a year

7. other

money would offset the land owners liability costs and such.

a small building would be placed on site and a cafe, bath rooms and such would be established, a place to camp would also be placed on the 60 acre site. remeber this is private land.

looking for any and all comments on this issue.

john anderson

ps: spread the word on this, also contact thomson ling Access Fund coordinator for further information. this access iussue sis 25 plus years in the making.

wow, this could be cool. this sounds more promising than the last rumor i heard about cranberry: that the land would be donated to the state park when the current land owner dies...

i guess i'd have no problem paying 10 bucks a year to help cover insurance.

bathrooms will be needed, people are already crapping all over allamuchy.

i dont really think a cafe or campground is needed...having never climbed there and only looking at it from afar, it doesnt seem like the kind of place that would need either of these amenities.

mini-guide is available for review in pdf format. send request to

ingvarja@verizon.net

Where is Cranberry Ledges? I definitely don't mind paying $10-$20 a year for climbing.

cranberry ledges is located in central NJ, east of allamuchy and north of the rt 80 and rt. 206 highway junction. the site is private property w/ a climbing hx that can be traced back to the 1950's. the last full out climbing and access onsite took place in the early 1970's. the site is pristine, very fragile ecologically and has some awesome climbing. roofs, low angle to steep faces and cracks. cliffs run from 100 to 135 feet high w/ bouldering areas found on site. again this is private property and the general feeling among local climbers is access might be feasible providing the site remains its character and is not over-used by climbers. the land owner in question is now asking direct questions on climbing access. hence the posting. we are looking to get a feel on peoples thoughts on the site. a pdf formatted mini-guide is available. send e-mail request to ingvarja@verizon.net

at the end of all this access may not be feasible and or access may take place under stipulations. it is an unknown.

jia

Thanks for the info. I do not knowabout NJ, but in NYS the owner would have no liablility as long as there were no upgrades/changes to the property that would bring them as well as not charging any fee. Now, if the idea is to produce a money maker for the owner and that is the only reson for opening the area, that is entirely different. In that case, a yearly pass system is the way to go.

what type of rock is it? any climbable ice in the winter?

Citation? I thought that climbing was *not* one of the protected activities in the NY recreational use statutes. Has this changed?

Looked for the the NYS recreational use law, found this:

http://asci.uvm.edu/equine/law/recreate/ny_rec.htm


and the protected activities:

a. an owner, lessee or occupant of premises, whether or not posted as provided in section 11-2111 of the environmental conservation law, owes no duty to keep the premises safe for entry or use by others for hunting, fishing, organized gleaning as defined in section seventy- one-y of the agriculture and markets law, canoeing, boating, trapping, hiking, cross-country skiing, tobogganing, sledding, speleological activities, horseback riding, bicycle riding, hand gliding, motorized vehicle operation for recreational purposes, snowmobile operation, cutting or gathering of wood for non-commercial purposes or training of dogs, or to give warning of any hazardous condition or use of or structure or activity on such premises to persons entering for such purposes;

indeed may have climbable ice in the winter. the face stays wet inside a few areas. land-owner is evaluting the best approach to possibly gig up for access. while he is protected by nj landowners liability acts he doesn't want the BS that could follow someone suing him or his estate. and for that you can't blame him. general idea at this stage is a sometype of year round access permit w/ day use permits. modeled somewhat after the gunks but less structured. again a general thought that is being discussed.

type of rock: medium grained, pinkish-white to pinkish-gray massive granite, formed from magma , secondary rock is limestone-sandstone, rocks some of nj's oldest was formed 1.3 billion to 750 million years ago. it is the site of an old quarry. last quarrying took place pre 1960's. rock is mostly solid. cliff band in 3 distinct sections.

Sounds great! Less than 1 hour from the GW bridge. I'd pay.

I haven't been to Cranberry Ledges since the early 80's...
Beautiful place to climb.
I'd pay $20 for a permit.
-Phil

I'd go for $20 a year and offer what I could as far as opening access. Please PM. (I'll also e-mail to the address listed).

I'd pay for a year around access too. Given the fact that I most likely won't make it up there more than handful times a year, $20 or lower sounds reasonable. That cafe thing sounds really good for winter climbing!

In terms of climbable area, is it comparable to Peterskill? Sounds like many would enjoy the climbing if available. I would gladly pay for access. I think the cafe might be a bit of overkill in terms of return on investment.

more height then peterskill, same type of access. ecologically sensitive. good leads, greater exposure then peterskill.

See Photo Section of gunks.com for some basic cranberry photos. note the site is not yet open for full out access. details on full access will be posted.

jia

I drive by the cliffs everyday. I have wanted to climb them for quite some time. I would pay 20$ for access. The cafe is a little much and might not yield great returns. Would a yearly pass include camping?

don't know but is a soft topic w/ the landowner. there is talk about forming a local climbers organization for the site.

The pictures look good. Granite tends to have less density of climbs than sedimentary rock like the gunks, as they usually follow cracks or knobs. Does that appear true at Cranberry Ledges?

I'd go $20, even if I didn't climb there, just to preserve access.

I doubt much money would be raised, certainly nothing that would offset even the initial costs of answering a liability suit, but the fee might improve the chances that the people who do climb there know what they're doing, and it would presumably be be part of a process that included signed waivers, which might reduce the chance of being sued in the first place.

I would be interested in becoming a member of a local climbing coalition if it would help gain access.

cranberry would swallow bolts, that will not happen. no bolts. this though makes climbing there robust. any bolt placements would have to be worked out w/ the land-owner and i don't know what he would think about such issues. the sections of the site that have climbs have been well protected and some climbs are run out, but that issue would have to be worked out, if access is opened.

no way will access fee's cover a lawsuit. waviers will have to be signed for access. site insurance is an issue under discussion w/ the AF and the landowner.

forming a sustainable LCO is another area that is being discussed. locals will have to get fully involved in such LCO and likewise others.

issues that people have mentioned in this listing have been added to the agenda of a possible active management plan.

we are waiting to hear back from the landowner on issues. further details will be posted.

how would this area compare to ramapo transit cliffs?

as climbing areas in nj goes its better then ramapo. if the lanbd owner allows access, better rock, sustained routes, environmental characteristics, location, approach, etc.... all and all cranberry provides a better site.

sounds great, thanks and good luck!!

Hey All,

I'd be happy to pay a yearly fee, especially if there is a chance of some ice thrown in.

Thanks for keeping us up to date with this John.

Very interested to hear about any furhter development of climbing areas in NJ. Love the Gunks, but would be great to have some more options a bit closer.
Maybe paid parking might be another way to charge for access? A similar sort of fee to Peterskill would probably by acceptable to most - so about $10 per day?

Would definitely pay a modest yearly fee - it's only 40 minutes driveway to driveway from my house. In the $20-$30 range is perfect. Would certainly be up for developing/cleaning/opening routes as well.

Don't think a cafe is necessary, nor a worthwhile investment, at least in the short term. It will take a long while before there will be the kind of foot traffic to sustain any sort of retail venture.

A pit toilet is an excellent idea - the closer to the climbing the better. Otherwise it won't be used and you'll have cat holes all over the cliff base (see Indian Creek).

Cranberry Ledges is a great crag. I climbed there from the late 70's until the mid-80's. Climbing seemed to be a tolerated activity until a dirt bike rider rode off the top and obviously didn't land well.

From my fading memory: There is a big right facing corner that goes in two short pitches at around 5.5 or so. There is a nice climb that breaks off left from the corner and climbs the face at 5.9-ish. There are a bunch of shorter climbs and top-ropes.

I might have an old, hand-written guid to this place. I'll have to look around.

I'd pay $20/annually even if I never showed up. It's worth the money to open up new and new-old climbing venues in NJ.

Now, let's get Green Pond opened up That would be a coup d'

i would be very interested in any photos and or a copy of the hand written.

ingvarja@verizon.net

how far back did you all cover the ledges for climbing ?

green pond-hey now. one can get a hiking pass from the watershed and do not mention hiking. that will give you access for green pond. craigmeur a different story. managment of cliffs is debateable however those cliffs sit on state fish and game lands, sign the state park wavier and your covered for access.

desolation row slabs up across the farney highlands also covered by the state park waviers.

be very interested in discussing some of these and other areas.

john anderson
jia

Sounds like John should start his own renegade guiding business.

I'd definitely pay for a annual pass to Cranberry Ledges.

If a cafe was established, it could work if it encouraged a BYOB hang out and meet other climbers atmosphere on weekends. Open at 2pm when most climbers are finishing up for the day. Have casual outdoor seating and maybe a local band playing. Hell, I'd stop by even if I wasn't climbing.

renegade guide business. as the former long-time Access Fund Coordinator of NJ and long-time member of the AMGA (etc...) it would be highly unethical for me to leverage access at Cranberry Ledges for a private guide service at that site. the issue at cranberry was passed to me from dave rosentien back 15 years and the land owner is finely asking questions on general access.

it would not be appropriate to open a private guide service on the backs of all those who have helped push this issue to the next piece of pro as it where. not that the thought has not passed through me brain. we have spoken to some of the guides in the Gunks and elsewhere and they would use the site for guiding.

Thank you, John, for making the right decision and stand on the guide issue. I did not see the inquiry you were responding to but think I can infer the content. I have nothing against guides but appreciate the freedom to explore on my own and that doesn't occur when a guiding firm runs the show for everyone.

John,

I think trad junkie meant you should guide NJ in general based on you knowledge of open/legal areas. At least thats how i took it.

If cranberry opens up, I'd say it time for a NEW NJ guide book, not necessarily a route by route guide to the state, but just the current legal and open areas and how to get there. That new PA guide book has lead me to discover some cool places based on just a few sentences of description on what out there and (generally) how to get there.

I for one dont care too much for a guide book that seems to mostly cover closed areas...

yeah its time for an updated jersey guide w/ or w/o cranberry. now that states lands have opened there are some fun sites to climb and where its 110% legal. areas where its closed but have awesome climbing are also found in the state.

enter into your web browser "access nj climbs" has a tripod.com site. i'd be glad to update but would need a hand the questiuon should such sites be listed. i don't know on that issue.

i think the fun of jersey climbing is finding the sites and then doing routes at them.

ps: as for a nj guide service, i run a small guide service down in NJ (lucky if i cover the price of gas, its more of the love of climbing and turning others on that i do it, ahh well such as it goes) , so am always glad to answer any and all questions on jersey climbing.

pss: one has to be willing to walk 30 to 60 minutes often to some out of the way spot for a small crag. desolation row up on coperas mountain is one such site. unkwn climbing history. HUGE potential. rock is slabby, craggy, w/ some areas of vertical cliff. down off rt. 23 in new foundland. on state land. see the row from the rest area looking across the reservior on its North shore.

Can you tell me more about copperas mountain? I checked it out on google maps and it turns out its near by, I work on the base there so it would be great to be able to use it. Where do you park and where is there a trail and where is desolation row in relation to green pond? As far as cranberry ledges goes, id be very happy to pay 20 bucks for access.

The amc site states that green pond is open. a friend and me went up there last week to check things out some cool looking stuff and rattlesnakes so watch out. would definately pay twenty bucks a year to help open up more climbing options at cranberry ledges in nj also would donate time to trail building and infastructure or anything else that would be helpful.

In the early 80s I went for a visit to a friends grandmothers on Green Pond, I remember lots of painted boulders/talus on the west? shore.
Keith, was there anything like that going on?
Thanks.

anyone ever get on the wave

as for the entire green pond ridge...ownership is fragmented. on state lands climbing is legal, county lands its a gray area, water shed lands where one parks you may want to consider having a hiking permit. available up on echo lake road. if i was getting a hiking pass i would not even mention climbing. leaving the area don't walk through folks back yards and or park in front of their houses. climb clean.

posted photo of green pond west in photo section.

I would pay $20 for access and would take advantage of it. As others have said I think there would be very limited advantage to having a cafe. Pit toilets would be a good thing.

Anyone know what is going on at cranberry ledges. I know someone stores equipment off the access road, but today they had a large excavator clearing brush and trees from the cliff base. Might just be a coincidence, could have been clearing another equipment spot for all I know.