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#5600 - 09/04/02 05:59 AM Format with Netscape Navigator
hartmann Offline
member

Registered: 11/20/99
Posts: 161
Loc: Northfield, VT
I like to use Netscape Navigator, but now the formatting of the pages is all messed up when I view them in Navigator. It seems to be fine with Internet Explorer using the same computer. Is that the site or just my browser settings? I don't have this problem with other sites or under your old format.

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#5601 - 09/04/02 12:51 PM Re: Format with Netscape Navigator [Re: hartmann]
empicard Offline
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Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2952
Loc: LI, NY
I had the same problem. I couldn't even get to the discussion board without jumping through a bunch of hoops.
BIG BILL is invading my climbing world, and I don't like it one bit.
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#5602 - 09/04/02 01:57 PM Re: Format with Netscape Navigator [Re: hartmann]
cori Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/20/01
Posts: 1357
I emailed the comment in and they mentioned they did not write it to work with NS 4.7. So that is why.

I mentioned that at some work places we are not at leisure to install whatever we want on our machines. IE is OK if you have a PC and the company you work for lets you do anything. There is probably nothing so technologically advanced on this site that should have browser requirements, just formatting and implementation of some additional JS. No other site I go to has this problem.

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#5603 - 09/04/02 02:23 PM Re: Format with Netscape Navigator [Re: cori]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
Eh. Expect more of these problems with various sites and NS4 as time goes on... if you don't want IE, install Mozilla and use it to filter all the damn pop-up ads

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#5604 - 09/04/02 05:08 PM Re: Format with Netscape Navigator [Re: pedestrian]
cori Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/20/01
Posts: 1357
I probably was not very clear in the last post. sorry about that. (and yes - Modzilla rocks - have it at home)

My point was actually that not everyone has the luxury of installing whatever he or she wants on his or her machines at work. A surprising number of big corporations have standards that prevent installing software that is not approved.

I have no doubt that more and more sites that appear will not be compliant with NS 4.7. That is not exactly my point. If a site is for entertainment and nothing else, I find it completely appropriate to require browsers, resolutions, plugins, etc, because if someone does not hae the software to support viewing that site, the site can live without their business.

When developing a site or application that is used by the masses and has the intent to generate revenue, decisions on browser support and bells and whistles takes on a different path. This certainly may not be as fun, but it is just how things go.

Where I work, I will continue to develop for NS 4.7 until data shows that it is not economically reasonable to support this. Big companies move slow and upgrading browsers is not always a high priority. It is also a surprisingly high cost, which was news to me at first, but the support for something like this takes a lot of time and effort and training. (Even at a company full of rocket scientists, as I have found).

Then there are always the folks who use Linux and Macs...

This is why we make the big bucks.

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#5605 - 09/04/02 05:21 PM Re: Format with Netscape Navigator [Re: cori]
MarcC Offline
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Registered: 07/10/00
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...but the support for something like this takes a lot of time and effort and training. (Even at a company full of rocket scientists, as I have found).

That's what many computer geeks forget. A company hires rocket scientists for their knowledge about rocket science - not for their ability to upgrade software on their PC.
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#5606 - 09/04/02 06:53 PM Re: Format with Netscape Navigator [Re: MarcC]
quanto_the_mad Offline
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Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
...but the support for something like this takes a lot of time and effort and training. (Even at a company full of rocket scientists, as I have found).
That's what many computer geeks forget. A company hires rocket scientists for their knowledge about rocket science - not for their ability to upgrade software on their PC.


Nah, big companies don't let *anyone* upgrade their own systems. Big companies use software management apps like Tivoli, SMS, and ZenWorks to "distribute" apps to desktops. The cost of doing this is pretty small, since it requires no intervention from the user or even support. The user turns on their machine, and see a shortcut for Netscape 7 instead of Netscape 4. Cool stuff from an admin point of vew. The time and money comes goes into training tens of thousands of users to look *here* for their bookmark instead of *there*.

Anyway, Cori is right, in a corporate setting, users don't have a choice what they can use- they may not have access to (the highly insecure, uncontrollable, non-management friendly) Internet Explorer. And she's right too that there's no reason to make a website loaded with javascript (and flash) just because you can. I hate these jazzy sites that require every plugin or worse a dozen activex controls just to load the main page. Really annoys me.

I miss (being able to surf with) LYNX...

-Tabo



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#5607 - 09/04/02 07:37 PM Re: Format with Netscape Navigator [Re: cori]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
I agree that developers should at least try to support Netscape 4 for at least another 6 months to a year or so. We do where I work, though sometimes we introduce NS4 bugs in our point releases that we then have to go back and fix, because it's not our primary development or QA focus. Perhaps something similar will happen here on Gunks.com, with subsequent fixes - personally, I wouldn't expect anything different as an NS4 user.

However I also think that any company that doesn't allow their users to run IE on their Windows boxes is really living in the dark ages and are already subjecting their users to incompatibilities and just these kind of sporadic problems... I have seen several sites that don't work well with NS4.

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#5608 - 09/04/02 08:05 PM Re: Format with Netscape Navigator [Re: pedestrian]
quanto_the_mad Offline
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Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
Well, only if you think that getting to Gunks.com discussion groups is a "business related" use of your systems.

If I ask my boss to upgrade me to IE because I can't get to the Gunks.com discussions... guess what the reaction will be? Hampering a users' access to the 'net isn't a big deal if it's not in their job description to be on the net in the first place.
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#5609 - 09/05/02 02:57 PM Re: Format with Netscape Navigator
CrackBoy Offline
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Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 2435
Loc: Republic of Davis
common now, its obvious, his skills are more inclined to computers rather than the social interactions.

how would you feel if say, you put alot of time into making yourself the perfect cam. then the first thing people said was that it was far from perfect, and this sucks and that is clumsy etc.

everyone is so uptight since the site switched over.
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#5610 - 09/05/02 03:02 PM Re: Format with Netscape Navigator
chazman Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/07/02
Posts: 944
I'd have to agree with Cori. One "easy" solution if have the home page verify the visiting browser configuration and then have it direct the visitor to a version of the site that is tailored to that browser. OK, so in reality that is a mountain of work... then I think what needs to be done is rid the site of the fancy DHTML and java scripts that are platform dependent (that's only my opinion... don't go jumping all over me )

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#5611 - 09/05/02 03:21 PM Re: Format with Netscape Navigator [Re: chazman]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thank you for you idea, and please note that it is in the works.

Should be done soon, and not as in 'next week' kind of soon either.

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#5612 - 09/05/02 03:31 PM Re: Format with Netscape Navigator
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
Well, that was quick! Thanks, much easier now. Oh yeah, I can login with lynx, unable to post tho. Heh heh... maybe better that way. -Tabo
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#5613 - 09/06/02 02:42 PM Re: Format with Netscape Navigator [Re: hartmann]
Anonymous
Unregistered


After reading this thread I was curious so I checked my log files for ClimbNYC.com. It seems that Netscape version 4 is the third most popular browser behind IE5 & IE6 and far ahead of any of the newer versions of Netscape. The total Netscape usage is 9%. Just about the same as for the Mac users. So the question is do you design for the 90% or the 9% (sadly the other 1% is easy to forget about) I don't have an answer for that one...


Here are the results for the past few months. Each visitor is only counted once by WebTrends:

Browser & Version Visitors %
1. Microsoft Internet Explorer 5.x - 10,993 - 56.99%

2. Microsoft Internet Explorer 6.x - 5,872 - 30.44%

3. Netscape 4.x - 1,319 - 6.84%

4. Microsoft Internet Explorer 4.x - 605 - 3.14%

5. Netscape 6.x - 252 - 1.31%

6. Netscape 5.x - 95 - 0.49%

7. Other Netscape Compatible - 74 - 0.38%

8. Opera 4.x - 59 - 0.31%

9. Opera 6.x - 7 - 0.04%

10. Microsoft Internet Explorer - 7 - 0.04%

11. Opera - 2 - 0.01%

12. UPG1 UP - 2 - 0.01%

13. SpaceBison - 1 - 0.01%

14. Opera 5.x - 1 - 0.01%

PS- ClimbNYC.com will not be exactly the same as gunks.com in make up but it seems to be close to the stats for the rest of the web.


Edited by Todd (09/06/02 04:25 PM)

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#5614 - 09/06/02 02:46 PM Re: Format with Netscape Navigator
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2354
Loc: Boston
No Mozilla?

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#5615 - 09/06/02 03:07 PM Re: Format with Netscape Navigator
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
If you design for the 1%, (long live LYNX!), then it works for the other 99%.

If you design for the 90% IE users, you piss off the extremely vocal Linux (and BSD!) users running Mozilla. And some of the Mac crowd because they love to complain too. Then the Netscape users will speak up because they might as well at that point.

So it depends on how flame-resistant you are, if you're willing to alienate the zealots by telling them to take their non-conforming OSes elsewhere, and if you're willing to lose that diversity.
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#5616 - 09/06/02 03:07 PM Re: Format with Netscape Navigator [Re: GOclimb]
Anonymous
Unregistered


My guess is that that would fall under #7

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#5617 - 09/06/02 03:32 PM Re: Format with Netscape Navigator
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
And definitely #6. Webtrends doesn't know about Mozilla so they've invented a nonexistent netscape version

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#5618 - 09/06/02 03:43 PM Re: Format with Netscape Navigator [Re: pedestrian]
MurphysLaw Offline
gumby

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 2308
Loc: Hudson Valley, NY
I know diddly about this, but I would guess that for users of products classified from option #5 and below, they are statistically SOL.

I can't imagine it is economically viable/feasible for anybody to expend time and resources towards something that affects 1% or less of the user population.
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#5619 - 09/06/02 03:48 PM Re: Format with Netscape Navigator
chazman Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/07/02
Posts: 944
While Todd has a good point (why have the masses suffer for the sake of a select few) I would think this is the wrong answer. It looks like e2MET's profile shows him as a web designer first (and not a climber at all?). If you are a student looking to get into web design these are the problems you can not look away from in the real world. One day your boss will be at a friends house and have them call up his companies site for a little bragging rights and the computer will be running AOL with some old version of Mosaic and you'll be looking at a pink slip the following Monday... OK, so it's a little far fetched... personally I like solving problems and not sweeping them under the rug

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#5620 - 09/06/02 03:50 PM Re: Format with Netscape Navigator [Re: MurphysLaw]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
It is, for us. As Cori's pointed out, it's different in the corporate world; there are companies that standardized on Netscape 4 ages ago; some of these work for our customers, so we have to deal.

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#5621 - 09/06/02 04:13 PM Re: Format with Netscape Navigator [Re: MurphysLaw]
quanto_the_mad Offline
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Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
I can't imagine it is economically viable/feasible for anybody to expend time and resources towards something that affects 1% or less of the user population.

As of July 2002, US Market share
BMW- 1.5%
Mercedes- 1.2%
Subaru- 1.0%
Volvo- 0.6%
Audi- 0.5%, Saab 0.3%, and Porsche 0.1%. (skipped a few, full list here .)

Should these automakers pull their vehicles out of the US market? What would the gunks be without a lot full of Subarus?

But my point was, if you write web pages for the 1%, the basic web browser with no capabilities, write web pages with basic HTML and CGI, the site will still run fine on the other 99%, and you don't alienate anyone.
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#5622 - 09/06/02 04:34 PM Re: Format with Netscape Navigator [Re: quanto_the_mad]
MurphysLaw Offline
gumby

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 2308
Loc: Hudson Valley, NY
Good points all. BUT...

I'd guess YUGO (are they even still in business) controls less than 1% of the market share too.

You are suggesting that the website be set up in a "YUGO-like" (stripped down and basic) format, even though the vast majority of users can use and appreciate the "BMW/Mercedes-like" new features, which I'm sure will attract even more users, and more importantly for those to whom this really matters (Evan, et al), advertisers - it IS a for-profit venture, after all)

ps - I did say I don't know what I'm talking about here
I just know that if I were Evan, I wouldn't bother with (or at least prioritize) problems that affect so small a user group.
Maybe he and his buddies will get around to it - for those user's sakes, I hope so.
I just wouldn't be holding my breath.
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#5623 - 09/06/02 04:46 PM Re: Format with Netscape Navigator [Re: MurphysLaw]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
You're right, you don't know what you're talking about. (tease, tease)

Netscape 6/7 is perfectly capable of displaying the same format as IE6... *if* you actually bother to do it in a standards-conformant manner.

It's not a question of the masses suffering for the sake of the few... both can be satisfied if only you bother to read up on what is the portable way to do something and do it that way from the beginning. Then you don't have to go back and port things.. it's not a huge investment.

(This is really one of my hot buttons. If people continue to roll over and play dead purely out of laziness, Microsoft wins. Netscape 6/7 (which is the only portable, open, runs-on-any-platform-anywhere, standards conformant browser.. take that microsoft) really is just as advanced as IE6, so it shouldn't be that much effort to do things the *right* way.)

--ped "anal web dev geek" Xing

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#5624 - 09/06/02 05:02 PM Re: Format with Netscape Navigator [Re: MurphysLaw]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
ML, yes, you're right. Along with Chazman was saying, my company's website is pure glitz. Incredible the stuff they're running, a web designer's wet dream. Impress the competition. Impress the clients. Impress the prospective hires. Bragging rights for the higher ups.

Does gunks.com need (just as an example) a 8MB Flash animation saying how great a site it is and what a service it provides for visitors? Or do the visitors already know that? Does it really need all the bells and whistles to sell itself to users or advertisers?

Two years ago Burton.com had a slick flash animation on the opening screen. Looked cool, pita to navigate through. It's gone now, back to a simpler navigation. Those visiting the site already knew the value of the site, just wanted to get to the information they were looking for without getting slowed down by a clumsy interface.

A slick, clean interface, that's what I'm asking for. And lunch, if someone wants to buy me lunch that'd be cool too.
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#5625 - 09/06/02 05:05 PM Re: Format with Netscape Navigator [Re: MurphysLaw]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
I can't imagine it is economically viable/feasible for anybody to expend time and resources towards something that affects 1% or less of the user population.

Go back and read the statistics again. You're talking about 10%, not 1%, If you consider all non-microsoft products together. The Beast does not own 99% of the market... yet. But they will if people like you have their way

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#5626 - 09/06/02 05:33 PM Re: Format with Netscape Navigator [Re: pedestrian]
MurphysLaw Offline
gumby

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 2308
Loc: Hudson Valley, NY
Ah, the beloved "quote taken out of context" response.

In my original post, I was specifically referring to options #5 and below, each of which (not collectively) are about 1%, or significantly less. Dead horse sufficiently beaten.

OK, the Beast is 'only' 90% of the market.
(for better, or worse )
Wouldn't you, as a programmer/web site developer/tech geek want to address that large user group first, and then (maybe) get to all the other smaller ones?
(but, I doubt it's at the top of their "to do list")
That was (and is) pretty much my only point.

Coming from somebody who doesn't know what he's talking about.
(and only slightly more about climbing )

PS - if any/all of these other products are so much better than those from the "Evil Empire" - why aren't they more popular? (more than 10% total market share)
Normally, "if you build a better mousetrap, the world will beat a path to your door."





Edited by MurphysLaw (09/06/02 05:40 PM)
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#5627 - 09/06/02 05:36 PM Re: Format with Netscape Navigator [Re: MurphysLaw]
d-elvis Offline
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Registered: 04/26/00
Posts: 3650
Loc: Central PA
You can't fight the gates machine, MS is the real world ruler - give up now while you still can and join us - OR YOU WILL BE DESTROYED!!
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#5628 - 09/06/02 05:53 PM Re: Format with Netscape Navigator [Re: MurphysLaw]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn

PS - if any/all of these other products are so much better than those from the "Evil Empire" - why aren't they more popular?


Check this out, written by Neal Stephenson about computers and OSes. Great essay. At least read the "MGBs, Tanks, and Batmobiles", that will give you a general understanding, the rest explains in very good detail.
In the Beginning Was The Command Line
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#5629 - 09/06/02 07:42 PM Re: Format with Netscape Navigator [Re: quanto_the_mad]
Anonymous
Unregistered


The newest code will be created on FreeBSD using Katie and viewed in Konquerer, thus eliminating any worries of NS's ability to view it. Because if Konquerer can, anything can.

Long Live FreeBSD and death to Ms!

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#5630 - 09/06/02 07:58 PM Re: Format with Netscape Navigator [Re: MurphysLaw]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
So much to debunk, so little time.

Microsoft doesn't really have to write a better web browser, they only have to write one that is "good enough." They include it with their operating system, which for a number of reasons, none of which having to do with web browsers, is the dominant operating system on the PC platform. So nobody really has much inclination to go download something else. (Unless they want to block popup ads... go grab Mozilla! )

Secondly, yes.. as a programmer, I would rather write standards-conformant code, which takes care of the whole market at once, rather than making use of Microsoft-specific extensions. As somebody else has already pointed out, this type of website doesn't really need most of the extra language extensions or whizbang Flash animations, or hypercomplex Javascript+CSS+DHTML dynamic user interfaces... so writing standards-conformant code shouldn't be a huge sacrifice.

That's the beauty of standardization. You don't *have* to "get to all the smaller ones." You don't have to write code for every single browser out there, addressing each 1% and one-half % at a time, you just address the standardized pieces that they have in common.... and then you find that the fact the each browser is only worth 1%.. doesn't matter. You write the code in such a way that you're supporting all those individual 1%ers at once, and you've got 10%.

In theory. But this discussion is overly theoretical from the start.

BTW, none of this is intended as a slight against Evan and Matt, who for the most part have done a great job, and I don't really mind if the major browsers are supported first with support for the less popular ones coming later. It *is* intended as a slight against those people within the IT industry who don't see the value of open standards, and the point of view you're expressing (Murphy) is essentially "well, who cares about open standards." I wish that more people did, because it really does benefit everyone in the *long* run.

(Oh, and the economic impact of non-MS browsers isn't as small as all that. I think a lot of corporations still find that they need to support them or they lose valuable business.)

--Ped "Arrogant Idealistic B**tard" Xing

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#5631 - 09/07/02 01:37 AM Re: Format with Netscape Navigator [Re: pedestrian]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
Yeah, Kudos Matt! Not many designers give us non-IE users much thought. It's great you're making the effort for us, the minority, and it just raises my opinion of you and the rest of the gunks.com staff. Huzzah!

-Tabo
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