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#5657 - 09/04/02 04:14 PM Bug Report: Navigation
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
On the pull-down menus, the "Discussion" link goes to the main page for that section of the site. Only once on those section pages does the Discussion link in the pull downs take you to the discussion pages.

This is unexpected and results in an additional page load. The pull-down menus should go directly to the sub-section clicked on from anywhere in the site.

Edited by MarcC (09/04/02 04:24 PM)
- Marc

#5658 - 09/04/02 05:09 PM Re: Bug Report: Navigation [Re: MarcC]
pda Offline

Registered: 08/30/01
Posts: 623
Loc: Bergen County NJ
Climbing pulldown menu has misspelling - "Trip Repots"

Also - how about providing a selection for the old colors?

#5659 - 09/04/02 05:22 PM Re: Bug Report: Navigation [Re: MarcC]
MurphysLaw Offline

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 2308
Loc: Hudson Valley, NY
Somewhat related to this is, when I respond to a PM, it often does not send me back to the PM in-box, so I can delete what I just responded to, or read the next PM.

And, in general, it is inconsistent as to which discussion board you will go back to, after reading a post.
In some cases, you can go back to the "master" board, which has NYC, climbing, biking, and hiking, and other times it's just climbing, still others it's just the sub-category.

But overall, good work Evan, and thanks!
"Flailing?" "Flail on!"

#5660 - 09/04/02 08:50 PM Re: Bug Report: Navigation- Macintosh [Re: MarcC]
rustyrabbit Online   content

Registered: 03/27/02
Posts: 168
Loc: village of new paltz
Not sure if this is unique to the Mac interface, but using OS 9+ and a current version of IE, and attempting to access the discussion section- this is the process:

Go to Lefthand gutter of main screen,
click on Discussion bar,
this opens up nine threads, 3 each in climbing, hiking and biking.
For climbing, the choices are Support Needed..., New Leader..., and ALIENS. I have to click one of these threads, see the expanded thread with posts, and then at the top of this page is the first place that I can select "Climbing Discussion" and see all the threads and new posts.

On Netscape Navigator on a Mac the font sizes don't scale- the typeface is tiny, even after adjusting things. I'm old, but my eyes aren't that bad...I don't want to have to get a PC or deep link! Otherwise, the appearance is nice, and I like the orange.

It's just a box of rain, I don't know who put it there

#5661 - 09/04/02 10:30 PM Re: Bug Report: Navigation- Macintosh [Re: rustyrabbit]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
That was how I first navigated to the climbing discussion - a royal pain. However, if you mouse-over the Climb menu item, you get a drop-down menu that has Discussion.... a somewhat more direct method.

However I agree that it is counter-intuitive to click on Discussion in the left nav bar and get 3 groups of 3 threads instead of direct links to the Climbing, Biking, and Hiking discussion main index pages. Alterrnatively, maybe list the top 3 threads (however "top" is defined) plus a direct link to each discussion main index.

Regarding the font size issue, some do scale, but in the stylesheet, most are defined as a fixed point size instead of relative sizing. Since Macs have different size pixels than PCs, a fixed point size will always be way smaller on a Mac. All web pages or style sheets should be coded in relative font sizes, and not absolute (ie: never use px or pt specifications) since pt and px don't scale as do em and percent. I have a reference to a great article on this and will edit this post to add the url once I find it.

As a public side note to Evan.....I hope it doesn't seem like we're nitpicking the new site to death. Overall I feel it is an improvement and I know it's a thankless task. I think everyone posting comments in this discussion section are doing so with an eye to making a great site even better.
- Marc

#5662 - 09/05/02 02:17 AM Re: Bug Report: Navigation- Macintosh [Re: MarcC]
pedestrian Offline

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
ah, that helps a lot.. but it doesn't seem to work in Mozilla! heeelp! ;-)

#5663 - 09/05/02 02:21 AM Re: Bug Report: Navigation- Macintosh [Re: MarcC]
Daniel Offline

Registered: 05/23/01
Posts: 1515
The drop-down menu under "Climb" (or any of those other headings in that horizontal) doesn't appear on my system (Windows ME and Netscape), so I've been accessing the discussion board by hitting a specific thread under "Discussion" on the left side of the home page and then going to the main index--an extra page load from before.

#5664 - 09/05/02 02:40 AM Re: Bug Report: Navigation (General Issues) [Re: Daniel]
markinthailand Offline

Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 84
Loc: Thailand
I'd suggest that the drop down menus be...ah...dropped. :-)

They don't work on all platforms (Win/Mac/Browser of your choice), and they mix interface metaphors (drop down menus within a web page of content? Poor human interface design, although snazzy IF (big if) it works).

FWIW, I've never seen the drop downs on the "climb" link, etc. I'm runnin Mac OS X and Explorer.

How about just plain links? No fancy java stuff, just a link.

As others have noted, the new design with the drop down menus forces uses into several more clicks to get to what they want. A design shouldn't place more barriers in front of users!

Mixing two seperate places for the same navigation options (top and sides) is confusing! Please decide on one or the other. A menu (list) of links all down the left side which persists would be fine--no need for links at the top, and users would see it all the time. This is becoming a pretty standard metaphor on the web, and works fine. You can have sub-links, etc., as PLAIN (not pull down) links, in a smaller font, etc. That way people can, in ONE click, jump to what they want. ALSO, you don't "hide" your content. You've got a lot of GREAT stuff on this site--DON'T hide it under pop down or whatever menus that not even all users see.

You've got a GREAT start on a redesign, and lots of space on the first page, use it! :-)

#5665 - 09/05/02 05:28 AM Re: Bug Report: Navigation (General Issues) [Re: markinthailand]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Apologies in advance for going into techno-geek speak......

.....and an important disclaimer: I am now pretty far removed from the nuts & bolts of coding. I can understand the issues and code based on background, but I may be totally wrong about specifics. I'm also not able to test on every platform/browser combination. So with that, here's my understanding of what might be happening.....

It looks like the pages are coded for IE 5.x and above supporting CSS 2.0 and DOM 1.0 on Windoze. Regarding the drop-down menus, the implementation is via the attribute. There's a JS function that sets it as either "visible" or "hidden" depening on onmousein and onmouseout events.

From what I was able to find out from some quick look-ups, the problem is that in Netscape Navigator, the valid attribute values are "hide" or "show"...and that's in NN 6. NN4.x doesn't support the visibility attribute at all, and the current NN version for Mac OS 9 and above is 4.7. Also, the way IE supports DOM 1 differs depending on platform and differs from the engines in other browsers. Let's not even get into Opera, Lynx, and Mozilla.

Also, it looks like in other browsers you need to use the document.getElementById(id).style.visibility method, but appears to be using the document.all(elmnt).style.visibility method. I can't find any browser sniffing in the code, at least at the page level - it may occur way up-front or in a php and set a cookie accordingly - I didn't/can't check that much - but since folks using a config other than Win/IE are reporting they can't see the drop-downs, I'd guess that it isn't occurring. The point is that the current code appears that it might exclude classes of users.

I agree - use JS/CSS 2/new technology to enhance the experience, but don't make it a requirement to easily get to content. As far as supporting different browsers, web designers should not forget that AOL (accounting for over 20 M users) now owns Netscape. It will no longer be adequate for a general interest site to ignore NN - at least if it expects to get any traffic. I know there are issues about buggy, non-standard html and js support in NN 4.x and agree that that version should be given a quick and merciful death, but for a variety of reasons, people are still using it, and it isn't that difficult to code around it so that a site degrades gracefully.

Here's at least one related link:

Edited by MarcC (09/05/02 06:07 AM)
- Marc

#5666 - 09/05/02 06:01 AM Re: Bug Report: Navigation (General Issues) [Re: MarcC]

1. Thank you for your JavaScript info (it has been noted and put on my to-do-list).

2. As for AOL, the last two versions of NS view the site perfectly. And from a web designer’s point of view -- AOL is the enemy because they do nothing but purposely not go by the standards as to empower their own horrid product.

3. I'm working as fast as possible to fix all errors ~ and I am truly sorry if its not fast enough.

4. One Man != God

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