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#57528 - 05/18/11 06:52 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: jakedatc]
Rickster Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 850
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
The walk off was always a pleasant way to finish a climb, let the arms rest a bit, socialize with other folks along the way, sort the gear as you walked. I even remember watching jstan coil his rope as he jogged back across the top with one partner or another (those who could keep up).

The one thing missing from the walk back is that convenient tree just above the ube, placed so well for one to grab as you jumped (or carefully stepped) down to that ledge. I suppose it finally gave in to all the manhandling.

Possibly what might help around the ube is a moratorium on rapping anywhere between the first rap station and the Keyhole buttress. And, clean out any of those unnecessary cable anchors within that zone as well.


Edited by Rickster (05/19/11 12:10 AM)

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#57529 - 05/18/11 07:22 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: rg@ofmc]
Jeff D. Offline
journeyman

Registered: 06/10/05
Posts: 75
Loc: NY, NJ
Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
In my opinion the source of the problem has nothing to do with the guidebook and everything to do with the incessant modern demand for more convenience and efficiency.


If by "demand for convenience and efficiency" you you mean trying to limit the incessant clusterfucking, knocking down rocks, throwing ropes on highly trafficed routes, and yelling that characterizes the Trapps experience on a weekend day, then I will say that I am a proponent. I hardly feel the need to defend myself for wanting to be courteous and considerate of my fellow climbers and help them be the same for others.

I can control my actions, and you can control yours, but without an effort to help others make better decisions our collective experience suffers. I can walk off Baby all I want, but that doesnt mean other people will show the same courtesy on a busy day. I think being a propropent of the next best option is pragmatic rather than assuming everyone is going to walk off because its best.

Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
What is so terrible about the idea that experience is something that is acquired over time by actually indulging in the "not enjoyable" process of exploring? Isn't dealing with the (very slightly) unknown a part of trad climbing?


You are making assumptions about what argument you think I am making or represent rather than what I said. I'm just of the opinion that there are improvements to the collective experience. They dont require new anchors and can be achieved through more transparent discussions of descent options. It seems you feel the need to set yourself in contrast to my comments, but I am at a loss for how they contradict.

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#57530 - 05/18/11 07:47 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: Jeff D.]
jakedatc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
"I think being a propropent of the next best option"

what does this mean? Most tree rap anchors are going to be on a route some more popular than others. all of the bolted rap lines are on fairly popular routes except High E. the "best" option changes on a route by route basis. It is best to look in the book, understand where you are and keep your eyes open on the way up.

what improvements do you want? the guidebook to have rap suggestions? won't happen other than what is already there. Look at mountain project or ask people at the cliff for suggestions if you need more info than that.

team up with another group going down to make it quicker. Hell even on a friday we teamed up with another group to have a full rope length and got off with 2 raps instead of 3.

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#57531 - 05/18/11 08:10 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: jakedatc]
tradjunkie Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 365
Originally Posted By: jakedatc
team up with another group going down to make it quicker. Hell even on a friday we teamed up with another group to have a full rope length and got off with 2 raps instead of 3.


You know, you bring up a great point that I've often wondered about. IS it actually faster to team up like that? Or is it a wash? Anybody want to walk me/us through where the time gets saved? Math or otherwise?

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#57532 - 05/18/11 08:20 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: Jeff D.]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Originally Posted By: Jeff D.
If by "demand for convenience and efficiency" you you mean trying to limit the incessant clusterfucking, knocking down rocks, throwing ropes on highly trafficed routes, and yelling that characterizes the Trapps experience on a weekend day, then I will say that I am a proponent. I hardly feel the need to defend myself for wanting to be courteous and considerate of my fellow climbers and help them be the same for others.


No, neither you nor anyone else have to defend yourself for that. Only thing is, you never mentioned it in your original post, and the only criteria you specifically state is convenience, as in

Quote:
I do not enjoy walking the cliff edge unroped searching for other anchors which may or may not be more convenient descents, with no real easy way to determine that from the top.


Quote:
I can control my actions, and you can control yours, but without an effort to help others make better decisions our collective experience suffers.


This is true enough as far as it goes, but your "solution" was to blame the guidebook. Perhaps Julie will start a MP section entitled Getting Down from the Trapps?

Quote:
You are making assumptions about what argument you think I am making or represent rather than what I said...It seems you feel the need to set yourself in contrast to my comments, but I am at a loss for how they contradict.


Other people reached the same conclusions I did. We can only react to what you wrote, and you didn't convey what you now say you actually meant.

Quote:
I'm just of the opinion that there are improvements to the collective experience. They don't require new anchors and can be achieved through more transparent discussions of descent options.


This sounds good, although I'm afraid I don't know what it means. Is the problem that descent options are now discussed in a way that obscures things and "transparency" is the solution? Perhaps you could give an example of such an obscure discussion and then indicate the appropriately "transparent" response?

One of the problems, in my opinion, is that the Preserve is only batting around .500 in placing bolted rap descents. The Jackie, City Lights, Ribs, and Arrow ones go over really busy sections, and the Kama Sutra one doesn't start at the top of the cliff. Three Pines, Northern Pillar, Last Will Be First, and High E ones are better.

Not all of these are so easily found from the top either, although I think the process of searching them out is kinda fun in itself and is part of being a trad climber.

Another issue is that if people really started to use these routes to the exclusion of all the other set-ups, there would be a lot more traffic at the top, and the current lack of such traffic is continually cited as a benefit of the modern rap proclivity.

As usual, there don't seem to be any easy answers.

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#57533 - 05/18/11 08:33 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: tradjunkie]
jakedatc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
Originally Posted By: tradjunkie
Originally Posted By: jakedatc
team up with another group going down to make it quicker. Hell even on a friday we teamed up with another group to have a full rope length and got off with 2 raps instead of 3.


You know, you bring up a great point that I've often wondered about. IS it actually faster to team up like that? Or is it a wash? Anybody want to walk me/us through where the time gets saved? Math or otherwise?



I think as long as you're with another pair that is efficient or can be taught real quick to be efficient then it is faster. send the first one down.. have them already putting the pull end of the rope through the next rings.. 2,3,4th down start pulling once they are off. I think overall it speeds things up because you don't have to worry about dropping another rope on the first party and i think most people would prefer to do a 60m rap over multiple 30m.

I had a plan the other day to make it even faster but i got shot down.. on the 2nd rap we only needed a single rope to get down so I wanted to rap on the extra rope Fig 8's to the anchor and then have the last person down drop that rope. It made sense to me but we weren't really in a hurry. but in the rain i would have been on that in a heartbeat.

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#57534 - 05/18/11 08:39 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: rg@ofmc]
Jeff D. Offline
journeyman

Registered: 06/10/05
Posts: 75
Loc: NY, NJ
Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
This is true enough as far as it goes, but your "solution" was to blame the guidebook. Perhaps Julie will start a MP section entitled Getting Down from the Trapps?


Wording aside, my point was that there seems always a wealth of information about ways of ascending, and limited amounts for descending. As long as you don't lead into the party ahead of you, it seems to me that you have little effect on others when ascending. However, descending has safety and convenience impacts on others.

Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc

Other people reached the same conclusions I did. We can only react to what you wrote, and you didn't convey what you now say you actually meant.


Fair enough.

Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
This sounds good, although I'm afraid I don't know what it means. Is the problem that descent options are now discussed in a way that obscures things and "transparency" is the solution? Perhaps you could give an example of such an obscure discussion and then indicate the appropriately "transparent" response?


I just think that rather than having people default to rappping off the Baby tree when another party is closely following and there are two parties already sharing the anchor below, it would be nice if people were aware of other options. Specifically, I feel like people see a rap anchor and feel obligated to go right back down. Maybe its naive that I hoped it was from lacking the knowledge of the alternatives.

Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
As usual, there don't seem to be any easy answers.


As usual!

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#57535 - 05/18/11 08:40 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: tradjunkie]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
TradJ, teaming up will often make the total time expended for everyone less, because

(1) If each party only has a single ropes, then they can combine their ropes and often reach the ground from the top in one rap with no need for intermediate stations.

(2) If everyone uses the same ropes, then the time used to tie the knots, throw the ropes, untangle the ropes when they hang up, and pull the ropes is only expended once in total, rather than once for each party.

However, even if the total time is reduced, the first party to the station has to wait while the others use their ropes. Depending on the other parties. This would make it either a wash or a loss of time for the first party.

Less experienced parties can take a long time to get on rappel and start descending, and their rate of descent can be agonizingly slow. Joining up with such folks can seem like an example of no good deed going unpunished, but in addition to being courteous, it may actually make the process a little safer for those who are just learning.

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#57543 - 05/19/11 03:14 AM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: Welle]
Coppertone Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Newtown, CT
Originally Posted By: Welle


Isn't that an essential part of climbing? When I go to a new crag or big mountain, I undoubtedly expect to be figuring out ways to descend and getting lost/off-route a bit...


I completely agree. I have had countless walkoffs and descents in Red Rocks in the dark, often getting lost, but ultimately always finding my way back. Its part of the adventure of climbing. If you want the fastest and most efficient way down everytime go someplace that has elevators and escalators. You can't climb by a watch. If you have people with you and worry about them getting down then go to a gym.

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#57545 - 05/19/11 03:43 AM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: Coppertone]
Lucander Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 227
Loc: Stone Ridge, NY
Guys and Gals: Go back to the original post of this thread and then please take your debate elsewhere. This is a thread for updates on anchor conditions. Please report which anchors need work, what kind of work you have done, and what kind of work you noticed someone else doing.

This thread is turning into a microcosm of American politics: lots of talking, not too much doing.

D. Lucander

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