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#57970 - 06/14/11 12:33 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Mike Rawdon]
Rickster Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 848
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
And those hundreds of red spotted newts (red efts) playing in the carriage roads on Sunday? How cute was that?

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#57975 - 06/14/11 03:06 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Rickster]
TerrieM Online   content
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
I only see an eft here and there. I would be so thrilled to see them en masse!



One thing I thought about after signing off last night, in regards to the post about "guarding" the gates - I know that a lot of people view the trailhead people in that way, and seem to see the preserve negatively because they have someone there, but the trailhead people are NOT there solely to "make sure people pay."

Just because WE know where we are going on the preserve doesn't mean that everyone else does.... I've spent some time hanging out and chatting with trailhead people at their post, or the rangers atop the steel bridge. Quite a number of people have plenty of questions and other things they inquire the trailheads/rangers about.

So - they act as information providers

Also, they are a deterrent to car break-ins. Someone driving into a parking lot with the awareness that nearly all the cars there will not have their person walking back any minute now is going to think twice about it if they pass someone at the gate. It's not likely that a thief is going to buy a day pass (or be a member). But drive past a kiosk that is always empty...and the opportunity is there, for such a person. There is HUGE trouble with break-ins at some crags.

So - they act as an obstacle for the opportunist thief to get past.

The trailheads are also not manned religiously - If it's a crappy day weatherwise, the trailhead person doesn't stay. And not that I am condoning sneaking in to the preserve - if one were so inclined it wouldn't be that difficult. If the preserve is SO all about the money, wouldn't it benefit them to put in a more stringent controls? An example might be having volunteers similar to the GUMBA cyclists. People who walk about the place with an authorative T'shirt, but instead of doing what the GUMBA's do, they are asking to see wrist bands and passes....

STP(still don't want to use that username, and won't use your real name, since you didn't log in with it) - I'm not trying to be argumentative with you specifically, and you needn't respond to this post(as you are definitely correct that we have opposing views and mine, on this, won't be swayed easily). I hear the same remarks from many, and when I see one person say "They're only in it for the money," I imagine others might read that and go "yea!" - but maybe getting a different perspective on the topic might make that "yeah!" be more of a "hmmm...." and think about it themselves.

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#57979 - 06/14/11 03:45 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: TerrieM]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
I can't believe this mountain lion thread has popped up again. How much scientific data (or lack thereof in this example) do people need to convince them of the truth??? I suppose there will alays be a small population of people who just want to believe so badly that they will convince themselves of it, despite the facts. One cat does not a breeding population make.

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#57980 - 06/14/11 03:47 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: TerrieM]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
For a long time, there was not much enforcement and there were many climbers sneaking in.

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#57981 - 06/14/11 05:24 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: chip]
SethG Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 709
Loc: NYC
It is still very easy to sneak in during the week. I would do it all the time but for the fact that I buy an annual membership because I support the Preserve.
_________________________
It's true, I have a blog. http://climbandpunishment.blogspot.com/

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#57983 - 06/14/11 08:12 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: SethG]
Coppertone Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Newtown, CT
back to the mountain lion, my friend got a little creative


http://www.greenwichmountainlion.com/

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#58032 - 06/17/11 11:07 AM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: TerrieM]
stoopid Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 67
Loc: West Sand Lake, NY
Originally Posted By: TerrieM
So - they act as information providers

Also, they are a deterrent to car break-ins... There is HUGE trouble with break-ins at some crags.

...but maybe getting a different perspective on the topic might make that "yeah!" be more of a "hmmm...." and think about it themselves.


I'm all for open minded, open ended discussion, but when I read your posts I feel like I'm being force to drink Mohonk flavored Kool aid. smile

Information providers -- you could say a police officer patroling the streets is the same, but that's not their primary purpose. The fact their positions are at key entrance points is clearly an indication their employment isn't about helping others, it's about checking for passes. Helping is a distant secondary outcome. It's very obvious to me at least.

Break-in deterent -- really? How would they know who's gear/rack/stuff is who's? Unless they see the break-in first hand, this isn't a valid reason. And for them to see anything they have to leave their post, which they don't do until sometime in the afternoon. The only parking area the guard/sentry can see in any detail is the smaller lower lot (near the stair master), and even half of that is out of view. Plus they have the usual "we're not responsible if someone steals your stuff" clause, if they had any real interest in guarding the vehicles they wouldn't have this disclaimer.

BTW, where are these problem break-in crags located? I've heard of one incident in 4+ years climbing, and by all accouts that was noted because of how rare break-ins are. Not saying it can't, won't , or doesn't happen, but if you're making a case for the guards serving a dual purpose there needs to be some substance to your claim that they're even needed for that purpose.

These are great examples of why I doubt anything you say to be the truth (it might be what you believe, but it's just an opinion and comes across as the official Mohonk "shpeel" to keep the flock in line). I'd wish to hell someone from Mohonk would grow a pair and admit they have a large interest in securing their income (and while at it admit climbers are a CRITICAL portion of that income -- in other words, show respect and appreciation to those keeping the lights on). Instead you dance around this, appealing to people's emotions and sympathy as a smoke/mirrors tactic to avoid getting at the heart of the matter.


Edited by stoopid (06/17/11 11:12 AM)

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#58036 - 06/17/11 12:24 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: stoopid]
Rickster Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 848
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Stoopid et al,
"CRITICAL portion of that income"
From yesterday's new in the mail "2010 Year In Review" booklet from the MP
2010 Operating Income: $2,572,893.00
24% Contributions
24% Membership
15% Annual Contribution in Lieu of I&D
15% Entry Fees
8% Grants
5% Special Programs/Events
4% Other Fees
2% Grant & Donor Carry forward
2% Other Income
1% Nature Shop

The gate staff insures the receipt of that 15% from Entry Fees,or $385,933.00

Yes Stoopid, I'd say the day use fee is a CRITICAL income source, and would add that it is CRITICAL that the gate staff be there to collect it.

"I'd wish to hell someone from Mohonk would grow a pair and admit they have a large interest in securing their income"

Stoopid, It should be obvious by the presence of gate staff, continual fund raising events, mailings, membership drives, day fees, etc. that the MP is very interested in securing it's income. No different than any other business, government, non-profit, family, or anyone for that matter. Why should they "grow a pair and admit" something that is just so evident.

"... in other words, show respect and appreciation to those keeping the lights
on."

Stoopid, how does the MP not show respect and appreciation to it's members and day visitors, particularly climbers?

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#58037 - 06/17/11 12:40 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Rickster]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
I have heard of numerous breakins at T-Wall and Red Rocks. TWall had a SERIOUS problem in 2007 that was much discussed online. Haven't heard of Gunks breakins. Theft from MUA and Camp Slime have happened however.

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#58039 - 06/17/11 02:12 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Rickster]
tradjunkie Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 365
Originally Posted By: Rickster

Stoopid, how does the MP not show respect and appreciation to it's members and day visitors, particularly climbers?


Anybody know what proportion of day permits are climbers, what proportion of members are climbers? By which I mean have climbing passes. Or what proportion of total visit-days are by climber-privileged visitors?

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