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#57563 - 05/19/11 06:45 PM 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?!
daryl512 Offline

veteran

Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 1256
Loc: Rochester, NY
FOR A FREAKING DAY PASS? WTF. I remember they were only 8 dollars. Why such a huge increase? For that price there had better be a Starbucks on the GT ledge..

Daryl
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At this point in my life I should be daryl5.3 not daryl512

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#57564 - 05/19/11 07:41 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: daryl512]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Tiki Bar is further north on Moonlight. Import and bottled beer now served on the High E ledge. Starbucks is nearer the parking, top of Ken's Crack, but most hit it when walking down from Betty/Jackie and down the Ub

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#57566 - 05/19/11 07:56 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: chip]
daryl512 Offline

veteran

Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 1256
Loc: Rochester, NY
I thought beer was ALWAYS served on the High E ledge, at least that's how I remembered it smile

Daryl
_________________________
At this point in my life I should be daryl5.3 not daryl512

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#57567 - 05/19/11 10:08 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: daryl512]
Timbo Online   content
addict

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 694
Loc: Delaware
The Mohonk Preserve's way of encouraging you to buy a membership.

TS
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#57569 - 05/20/11 02:08 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: chip]
kmc2 Offline
stranger

Registered: 10/02/08
Posts: 18
I dont think that would be a lucrative investment on Starbuck's end. A little marketing research would quickly show that although the climbs in that area see enough traffic to actually support a store in that location, they would see that very few people actually walk off of these, or any climbs in the Gunks. Im thinking something with a drive through right on the carriage road is the way to go.

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#57570 - 05/20/11 02:51 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: kmc2]
Rickster Online   content
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 845
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Ah innovations. How about a rap through? "Please rappel to the first window thank you."

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#57571 - 05/20/11 03:00 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: kmc2]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2468
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
For today's climbing business, Starbucks will have to think outside the box and totally redesign their basic layout. Drive-through is too far away from the population, rap-through is the way to go.

Build 'em at the top of established raps with a nice deck to sit on and gaze at the view, sipping your latte while you wait your turn to rap down. Of course, the peace and quiet of the natural scene isn't stimulating enough for many climbers, so a rock-concert quality speaker system will be needed to pump out heavy metal music to recreate the gym atmosphere that is now most associated with climbing.

Equip the deck with multiple rap anchors so that several parties can descend simultaneously. Of course there is a fee for using these anchors, paid for by swiping a credit card.

Sell Starbucks brand energy bars and rehydration drinks as well as the usual fare. Oh, and don't forget the little canvas credit-card holders with the Starbucks logo and harness loop clip so your customers will have a way to pay for all the stuff they're consuming while they wait their turn.

Naturally, an insignificant fraction of the profits should be conspicuously channeled into anchor replacement initiatives as well as the bolting of any sections that are not perfectly protected with ordinary trad gear.

Do we have a business plan here or what?


Edit: Rick beat me to the punch. But not the value-added details I've supplied.

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#57574 - 05/20/11 04:15 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: rg@ofmc]
Welle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 213
Loc: Western Slope
Oh Gawd, I just pictured bunch of caffeine-crazed jittery Type A New Yorkers all over the Trapps creating all kinds of rappel-anchor rage..."Passing thru, passing thru", "On your left, on your LEFT!!!" - sort of like Snowbird, Utah on a bluebird powder day...

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#57575 - 05/20/11 04:19 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Welle]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Originally Posted By: Welle
Oh Gawd, I just pictured bunch of caffeine-crazed jittery Type A New Yorkers all over the Trapps creating all kinds of rappel-anchor rage


What's to imagine? Sounds just like any busy weekend over the last several years.

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#57576 - 05/20/11 04:22 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Mike Rawdon]
Welle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 213
Loc: Western Slope
^^^ true. but I pictured the same in a fast forward mode, something like a regular weekend on steroids.

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#57577 - 05/20/11 06:10 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Welle]
TerrieM Offline
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
What's to imagine? People actually SAYING they are passing through, and not just dropping their ropes on your head! hahaha


MY beverage business idea(and I had 2, one of which was a pirate venture)was:

First - pirate one: Line a backpack with contractor bag, to create an ice bucket, fill with beers and other imbibables and make your way along the cliff base oh, say about 2pmish...

This one was several years ago and even then I knew it was just wishful thinking. I would never jeapordize my access to the preserve by doing such a thing.

The second one - is that the preserve could build out a wood deck at that section of the Uberfall area where the (now dried-up) water pipe is. This wood deck would have umbrella'd tables, and a cafe which served beer and other imbibables(in non-glass containers, of course) and ice cream. mmmmmm.....

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#57581 - 05/20/11 10:05 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: TerrieM]
Rickster Online   content
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 845
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Taking it to nth degree. Build Grand Canyon styled Skywalk http://www.grandcanyonskywalk.com/ projecting out from the top of Twilight Zone. The "summit lodge" could be designed along the lines of a traditional cedar gazebo. Add all the accoutrements described above and we've got it!

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#57601 - 05/22/11 03:03 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Rickster]
Jeff L. Offline
stranger

Registered: 04/13/05
Posts: 7
Loc: CT.
How many here used to participate in Maury's Saturday or Sunday afternoon wine tastings near the water pipe? Those were a touch of class (from an unlikely source)

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#57603 - 05/22/11 03:27 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Jeff L.]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
I only was fortunate to stumble into the wine tasting once. Maury! A gentleman I have not seen in a long while. Does anyone know of him? He could be walking by me with his hair/beard trimmed and I doubt I would recognise him.

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#57604 - 05/22/11 05:38 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: chip]
Dana Offline
addict

Registered: 07/13/00
Posts: 619
The answer to your question is not far to seek.
Oenophore

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#57605 - 05/23/11 12:03 AM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Dana]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Doh!Look forward to seeing you again sometime!

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#57651 - 05/23/11 11:11 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: chip]
acdnyc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 208
Loc: NYC/Kerhonkson
I found an old sticky pass that was for $5. It brought back memories of looking for parking on 44/55 and scrambling up the slope to Uberfall. A 340% increase in a little more than a decade. Not bad if your the preserve.


Edited by acdnyc (05/23/11 11:12 PM)
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jugs or mugs

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#57652 - 05/23/11 11:37 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: acdnyc]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
It's only a 240% increase.

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#57656 - 05/24/11 03:02 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: chip]
OldEric Offline
newbie

Registered: 05/20/02
Posts: 48
Its also "you're". I remember parking by the railing, $1.25 day passes and "Gunks buttons" (annual passes with a deadly pin). But once you start dwelling on the past...

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#57660 - 05/24/11 08:13 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: OldEric]
Dana Offline
addict

Registered: 07/13/00
Posts: 619
Did you mean to write it's or it is?

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#57675 - 05/26/11 01:14 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Dana]
phlan Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/11/00
Posts: 2778
Loc: Gardiner, NY
Maury's wine tastings. Yes, good memories. Jimmy the jazz drummer was ALWAYS there. and a certain Jewish chiropractor was a regular. and a heavy set guy can't remember his name right now. a fun crowd. after proper inebriation some people would do trick boulder problems upside down.

the MP closed the bar when they changed the rescue box to an angled top instead of flat. now the box is gone completely, of course. the frog pond, gone, no more water comes out of the pipe, even.
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Support Your Local Farmer!

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#57688 - 05/27/11 04:47 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: phlan]
phlan Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/11/00
Posts: 2778
Loc: Gardiner, NY
John Goobic, that was the other guy. Maury, John, Jimmy, plus Peter L., all serious wine and food people. Goobic brought a hookah to a party at Jimmys once.
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Support Your Local Farmer!

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#57689 - 05/27/11 04:51 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: phlan]
Rickster Online   content
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 845
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Wow, flash from the past. John Goobic!

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#57692 - 05/27/11 07:54 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Rickster]
AOR Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/27/04
Posts: 392
OMG...Jimmy Madison. Along with Morris Hershoff, we did some things that I don't think the statute of limitations has run out on yet!!! whistle grin

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#57693 - 05/27/11 08:29 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: AOR]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5967
Loc: 212 land
all serious wine and food people.

Ah c'mon; I was never really serious, just enthusiastic like that kid below.
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#57695 - 05/27/11 09:37 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: oenophore]
AOR Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/27/04
Posts: 392
Anyone know the whereabouts of Dan McMillan?

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#57700 - 05/29/11 12:22 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: AOR]
stoopid Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 67
Loc: West Sand Lake, NY
Back to subject, they're going to charge until their income stops. Then they'll back off $1 /year until it stabilizes again or they can't afford to keep the land and surrender it to the State. IMO, we should all stop going for a couple years, have the preserve go bankrupt, then once it becomes State property climb for free indefinitely. laugh

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#57701 - 05/29/11 01:51 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: stoopid]
Rickster Online   content
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 845
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Originally Posted By: stoopid
IMO, we should all stop going for a couple years, have the preserve go bankrupt, then once it becomes State property climb for free indefinitely. laugh

Poor strategy. One, we don't get to use the preserve while waiting for it to go under, and two, you presume that the PIPC would allow climbing when the state takes over. And, if they did allow climbing, you'd still be paying for it. They don't have the best record in regards to climbing access. But,that's another thread, or a few threads.
Best to buy the season pass, pays for it's self over a few weekends.

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#57704 - 05/29/11 09:14 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Rickster]
TerrieM Offline
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
The Mohonk Preserve does not exist solely for the sake of climbing, nor outdoor recreation in general.

I suppose many don't care so much about the animals and plants which have a chance at future survival because of the environment the preserve affords them,but there is a bigger picture to see if one is so inclined.

I know times are tough. I am living on less than $700/month, and my membership will be due in a a couple months, but I will pay it without complaining. $17 a day? Yeah - it DOES seem expensive, but.... next dinner out, add up the cost. For a lot of us, we will spend more on that meal with drinks than a day at the preserve. Or - think about our last gear purchase? 3 new biners (do we REALLY need the latest micro biner????) is more than a day pass.

You can also use your preserve membership to gain access to many nature preserves throughout the US. Link: http://mohonkpreserve.org/pdf/ANCABrochure.pdf

Really - I encourage people to buy a membership and look at it NOT as just the cost of climbing, but as a donation that helps the world to be a better place.

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#57705 - 05/30/11 01:13 AM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: TerrieM]
keith Offline
journeyman

Registered: 03/26/09
Posts: 70
Loc: The beach
Yes the preserve goes way beyond just trapps road. paying for a membership pays itself off tenfold if you consider preserving the entire ridgeline and surrounding valleys and areas not just one cliff.

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#57709 - 05/30/11 04:29 AM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: stoopid]
schwortz Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 308
Originally Posted By: stoopid
IMO, we should all stop going for a couple years, have the preserve go bankrupt, then once it becomes State property climb for free indefinitely. laugh

this is indeed quite stoopid

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#57713 - 05/30/11 02:55 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: schwortz]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
To me, it is hard to put a price on keeping land I love out of the hands of any government agency.

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#57724 - 05/31/11 02:08 AM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: chip]
ianmanger Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
plus their Neighbor Irritation Desk does excellent work. Toss in an extra 50.


Originally Posted By: chip
To me, it is hard to put a price on keeping land I love out of the hands of any government agency.

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#57727 - 05/31/11 11:17 AM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: ianmanger]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
The Neighbor Irritation Desk certainly is effective. The two current lawsuits against neighbors grind on. Those and other recent MP neighbor irritating shenanigans will make it so easy to write in upcoming months.

As for MP vs NY State ownership of land, all things considered, the state is a better deal for the community. It's not a better deal for climbing to be sure, but certainly it would be better for the community as a whole if the State of NY owned what is now the Mohonk Preserve.

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#57729 - 05/31/11 01:45 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Dana]
acdnyc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 208
Loc: NYC/Kerhonkson
It's only a 240% increase.

Man, your right. Hope the preserve doesn't see my mistake and get any more ideas of raising the pass any higher.

Its also "you're".

What Dana said, lol. "Did you mean to write it's or it is?"
_________________________
jugs or mugs

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#57730 - 05/31/11 06:31 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: acdnyc]
sp115 Offline
newbie

Registered: 04/05/07
Posts: 25
On a somewhat related note: does anyone know if you can buy an annual pass on the carriage road from the rangers or do they only sell day-passes?

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#57732 - 05/31/11 10:27 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: sp115]
schwortz Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 308
Originally Posted By: sp115
On a somewhat related note: does anyone know if you can buy an annual pass on the carriage road from the rangers or do they only sell day-passes?


from: http://www.mohonkpreserve.org/index.php?member
"Memberships may also be purchased at the Visitor Center or from Rangers on the land."

or do it online:
https://web.memberclicks.com/mc/quickForm/viewForm.do?orgId=mop&formId=50081

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#57734 - 06/01/11 02:53 AM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: schwortz]
sp115 Offline
newbie

Registered: 04/05/07
Posts: 25
Thanks.

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#57746 - 06/02/11 11:45 AM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: sp115]
Rickster Online   content
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 845
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Is not today worth $17? What a stellar day to be out at the cliffs. Or, anywhere outside for that matter. Enjoy

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#57749 - 06/02/11 01:45 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Rickster]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Amen, Rick! Even the morning jog with the dogs in the woods was a delight. Now if only I didn't have this job thing...

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#57765 - 06/03/11 05:22 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: chip]
Mim Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/27/00
Posts: 999
Loc: Gunks
There is no price for this weather... today. is. just. too. gorgeous. to. be. chained. to. a. desk... crazy
_________________________
Mim

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#57776 - 06/04/11 03:35 AM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Mim]
Jannette Online   content

Cliffmama
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 10/03/00
Posts: 2225
Loc: Gardiner, NY
Originally Posted By: Mim
There is no price for this weather... today. is. just. too. gorgeous. to. be. chained. to. a. desk... crazy


Agreed. I was fortunate to be out there climbing today. Just perfect. Saw Rich out there as well.

Jannette

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#57778 - 06/04/11 12:51 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Jannette]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
In philly we pay that much for a gym day pass. No question about where I'd rather be spending my money!

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#57826 - 06/07/11 09:06 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Mark Heyman]
stoopid Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 67
Loc: West Sand Lake, NY
Um, well the DEC (who would likely take over if the preserve were to fold for financial reasons) manages HUGE parks already (you may have heard of them -- the Adirondacks and Catskills?). I don't see how free access like we enjoy in the catskills and adks would suddenly become pay access? And yes, all the birds, trees, and slippery things will be preserved just the same (maybe even better?). It's only when things become privatized or are forced to seek funding from outside sources (ie - national park service fees to national parks) that we see the spiral of greed take over.

I didn't post it to be popular. I was taught to vote with my wallet. I'm sure the last thing the Mohonk preserve, Inc wants you to hear is that you have a choice.

Yes, you would have access while they went under (although not while they still have guards at the gates). They simply won't be able to police it. You'll see how far the 'love' goes when people stop getting paid. With the inevitibility of their foreclosure they wouldn't even prosecute, and the land would just transition to the DEC as have many hundreds of thousands of acres over the years to expand the catskil and adirondack parks. They might even manage to sell the preserve to the State to get out from under any financial burdens the organization might have.

It's all about the money, don't be fooled. "Mohonk" is nothing more than a brand like Nike and Sony.

But I digress, this is all good fodder and you'll see me at the crag with everyone else. Just a dream that we could, and I feel should, be able to enjoy open spaces like these at a nominal charge or for free. $10 to walk around? I don't think so. There's hundred of miles of trails just miles away in the catskills, FOR FREE.


Edited by stoopid (06/07/11 09:20 PM)

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#57828 - 06/07/11 10:42 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: stoopid]
Rickster Online   content
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 845
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Originally Posted By: stoopid
Um, well the DEC (who would likely take over if the preserve were to fold for financial reasons) manages HUGE parks already (you may have heard of them -- the Adirondacks and Catskills?).


Except that the odds are that the DEC would not administrate this hypothetical addition to the NYS Parks. Just across the highway, the Minnewaska State Park is administered by the Palisades Interstate Park Commission which shares administrative duties with.... New Jersey. And, many, not all, but many of their parks have paid entry as does Minnewaska. What do they charge to climb at little old, tiny, Peterskill?

My yearly membership to the MP is still cheaper than a year of parking at Minnewaska State Park. RC

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#57829 - 06/07/11 10:49 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Rickster]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5967
Loc: 212 land
I think there is no reason for Stoopid and Rickster to contend since it's unlikely the state will get up the money to buy the Preserve in the foreseeable future and the Preserve is doing well financially. If I'm wrong about either statement, I'd like someone to correct me.
_________________________

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#57831 - 06/07/11 10:52 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: oenophore]
Rickster Online   content
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 845
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Agreed.

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#57833 - 06/07/11 11:06 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Rickster]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
I can think of at least three private land parcels on the Ridge that have gone public in the last 30 years. NONE are in DEC hands. ALL are closed to climbing now.

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#57838 - 06/08/11 12:42 AM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Mike Rawdon]
stoopid Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 67
Loc: West Sand Lake, NY
The size of this land acquisition would not go unnoticed. I'm not entirely sure why New Jersey has a hand in anything going on in New Paltz New York. I'm sure there's a lot of backroom stuff that would explain that...

Traditionally the DEC will work to bring any unique areas it can under its umbrella, knowing very well private preserves (like Mohonk) come and go. Some last longer than others, some are more / less inclusive, etc. The goal of the DEC is to preserve the environment and allow us access to it. If a case can (and I'm willing to bet WOULD) be made that the gunks are unique enough to be preserved, they will be.

This is also 'upstate' mentality imposing itself on downstate practices. NYC residents are used to paying out their ears for every single friggin thing (can you tell where I live and would never live?), so $17 /day probably seems like a candy bar purchase compared to $35 /day parking in Manhattan. This is the only reason this has gone on for this long -- there's enough money funneling from NYC to prepetuate it. It doesn't mean that cash flow is indefinite, but for now it seems to be holding.

Back to my main point - Mohonk should recognize that they are not immune to free market fluctations like anything else. If they continue to raise the prices on their goods but offer nothing additional in return people will only tolerate it for so long. The demand is great enough right now it's not being reflected, but should that demand suddenly wane they'll be forced to change.


Edited by stoopid (06/08/11 12:47 AM)

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#57841 - 06/08/11 01:20 AM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: stoopid]
TerrieM Offline
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
I disagree quite vehemently with most of what you've written, stp(Yes, I know who you are - and I just don't feel comfortable calling you by yr chosen username).

DEC closed access for camping on one side of the MUA this year(supposedly - I see people parked and camped there as usual, and the porta potty is still in place). Not climbing but.... use was purportedly pulled, with no explanation.

Also, Mohonk Preserve land does lay partilally in New Paltz, but mostly it's Gardiner(and, I believe 3 other small municipalities).

The land most of the preserve holds WAS privately owned land. The Mohink Trust was originally created specifically TO protect the land from government and/or private holdings. I believe it came into being because they wanted to run a highway atop the cliffline(not sure on the specifics). The Smiley family saw what the future would eventually portend if safety mechanisms weren't put in place.

The Shawangunk ridge has support also from the Open Space Institute. I don't know why you are assuming the Preserve would fail; there's no indication of this even remotely occurring, so far as I can see.

The Smiley family has a long, distinguished history of being a fine steward of the lands they've held, and providing cultural support within the communities the family resided(s) in. The history is quite compelling and I have found myself tearing up in reading some of the elements that have been precursors to the Mohonk Preserve's existence.

I am grateful to the Smiley family, their foresight, and the legacy they have provided. It would be BEYOND a shame if those of us who have the privelidge of enjoying the land would ALLOW something as crass as the land to fall into the hands of bureocracy or private holdings.


Yes, you can climb, cAMp for free in the Daks. That's great! But it offends me to hear to hear people diss the preserve, and especially when(as would seem to be your case), you are not really informed about the entity.

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#57842 - 06/08/11 01:36 AM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: TerrieM]
stoopid Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 67
Loc: West Sand Lake, NY
Terri, this is all speculative. We're bitching about the increase in rates.

The DEC closed the camping because it really needs to be, the areas are overused/abused. That's the unfortunate fact of life in land management -- if you let people do whatever they want, inevitibly they will destroy it until even they can't use it any more.

I'm the first one to call the DEC on poor decisions and idiotic policies, but they do much more good than harm. They are really the ONLY state agency I can feel 100% good about my tax dollars supporting. I don't think there needs to be an Us versus Them mentality. The DEC wants what most if us (should) want -- protection of the environment and balanced use for the general public.

You seem really close to the subject and I don't doubt your personal feelings and interests cloud your objectivity in such a discussion. wink


Edited by stoopid (06/08/11 01:36 AM)

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#57843 - 06/08/11 01:43 AM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: stoopid]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2468
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Originally Posted By: stoopid

Traditionally the DEC will work to bring any unique areas it can under its umbrella, knowing very well private preserves (like Mohonk) come and go. Some last longer than others, some are more / less inclusive, etc. The goal of the DEC is to preserve the environment and allow us access to it. If a case can (and I'm willing to bet WOULD) be made that the gunks are unique enough to be preserved, they will be.


It didn't work that way with Minnewaska, which Cuomo threatened to close, by the way.

I don't know the ins and outs, but the DEC is more like the Forest Service than the Park Service; it manages large areas of land with all kinds of private enterprises included, and as a public institution is subject to pressures for access (snowmobilers, off-road vehicles) that the Preserve can resist.

Originally Posted By: stoopid
This is also 'upstate' mentality imposing itself on downstate practices. NYC residents are used to paying out their ears for every single friggin thing (can you tell where I live and would never live?), so $17 /day probably seems like a candy bar purchase compared to $35 /day parking in Manhattan. This is the only reason this has gone on for this long -- there's enough money funneling from NYC to prepetuate it. It doesn't mean that cash flow is indefinite, but for now it seems to be holding.


Ok, let's see what folks are willing to pay for a day's amusement far from NYC. A random sampling of amusement parks yields

Enchanted Forest Water Safari, Old Forge, NY. $27.95

Six Flags Great Escape, Lake George, NY General Day Admission: $45.99

Sea Breeze Amusement Park, Rochester, $25.99

Santa's Village, Jefferson, NH $26

Mohonk's proximity to NYC makes it even more of a bargain at $17.

Originally Posted By: stoopid
Back to my main point - Mohonk should recognize that they are not immune to free market fluctations like anything else. If they continue to raise the prices on their goods but offer nothing additional in return people will only tolerate it for so long.


Maybe. But it is just as likely that price increases that are still in proportion to other entertainment costs will be tolerated.

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#57844 - 06/08/11 01:44 AM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: TerrieM]
stoopid Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 67
Loc: West Sand Lake, NY
Originally Posted By: TerrieM
Yes, you can climb, cAMp for free in the Daks. That's great!


Actually, the catskills have plenty of free camping too. Free hiking too. And if the rock wasn't chossy shit, free climbing as well. The only reason the preserve exists and can charge $17/ day is because of NYC. It's also the reason the land is constantly being sought after by private entities, people thnk because they have money they can buy and have anything they want. :p

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#57845 - 06/08/11 01:49 AM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: rg@ofmc]
stoopid Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 67
Loc: West Sand Lake, NY
Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
Ok, let's see what folks are willing to pay for a day's amusement far from NYC. A random sampling of amusement parks yields

Enchanted Forest Water Safari, Old Forge, NY. $27.95

Six Flags Great Escape, Lake George, NY General Day Admission: $45.99

Sea Breeze Amusement Park, Rochester, $25.99

Santa's Village, Jefferson, NH $26

Mohonk's proximity to NYC makes it even more of a bargain at $17.


Mother nature footed the greatest expense in building gunk park escape village. You really compared apples to oranges there, not a single one of your 'examples' involves human powered activitites.
____________________

The DEC, even in tight times during the last decade+, has taken an aggressive role in buying land. I'm barely old enough to remember Cuomo's era of governance with any degree of clarity. I only know that right now the DEC partly sees it role as protector, knowing full well that if they don't someone else will.

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#57847 - 06/08/11 01:53 AM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: rg@ofmc]
stoopid Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 67
Loc: West Sand Lake, NY
Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
I don't know the ins and outs, but the DEC is more like the Forest Service than the Park Service; it manages large areas of land with all kinds of private enterprises included, and as a public institution is subject to pressures for access (snowmobilers, off-road vehicles) that the Preserve can resist.


That's funny - what you see as a problem is actually an asset. This means that all groups can have a voice, and not merely dictatorship of a private holder.

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#57848 - 06/08/11 01:57 AM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: stoopid]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2468
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Originally Posted By: stoopid
You really compared apples to oranges there, not a single one of your 'examples' involves human powered activitites.


You're the one who used a $35 parking fee to advance your argument. You can't have it both ways. But in any case your distinction is certainly arguable. A day of entertainment whatever the mechanism for it, is a day of entertainment. Three hours of human-powered activity in a climbing gym is going to cost the same amount as a day at the Gunks, for that matter.

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#57849 - 06/08/11 02:00 AM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: stoopid]
Frank Florence Offline
addict

Registered: 01/05/00
Posts: 528
Loc: moved to Bend
Apples to apples:

Day passes for either snow shoeing or cross country skiing at Mt. Van Hovenberg, Lake Placid were $20 last year.

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#57850 - 06/08/11 02:59 AM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: stoopid]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2468
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Originally Posted By: stoopid
Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
I don't know the ins and outs, but the DEC is more like the Forest Service than the Park Service; it manages large areas of land with all kinds of private enterprises included, and as a public institution is subject to pressures for access (snowmobilers, off-road vehicles) that the Preserve can resist.


That's funny - what you see as a problem is actually an asset. This means that all groups can have a voice, and not merely dictatorship of a private holder.


There are other "dictatorships" in the public sector. Money talks, and the environment walks.

Consider the history of the DEC in the case of Minnewaska, which shows what kind of "preservation" we might expect from them. In 1979, with the property in severe financial distress, Marriott proposed that Ulster County buy 375 acres of the Minnewaska site for $1.5 million and then lease it to Marriott, so that Marriot could build a $45 million resort complete with a 400-room hotel, 300 condominiums, and an 18-hole golf course.

Two years later, a DEC report approved the hotel and 50 condominium units, an amount to be increased if Marriot could prove adequate ground water supply and pollution controls. At the time, all the documents had already been filed by Marriot but the DEC had not reviewed them and went ahead with the provisional approval anyway.

This decision was successfully challenged by a consortium of groups who, using historical data kept by the Smiley family, were able to show that the Marriot plan approved by the DEC would actually drain Lake Minnewaska.

As I said, the DEC is a Forest Service type operation and is open to the building of concessions on "preserved" land, as well as potentially bowing to well-funded political pressures such as permitting snow mobile access to the back country. Our jokes upthread about cliffside Starbucks are not completely far-fetched with the DEC in charge.

This so-called ability for all groups to have a voice, when the volume of that voice is directly proportional to the amount of money the groups can access, particularly from the very deep pockets of corporate interests, is hardly an asset if the goal is to keep the land in as pristine a state as possible.

I'll take the Mohonk Preserve and their $17 day fee over that any day.

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#57852 - 06/08/11 12:16 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: rg@ofmc]
TerrieM Offline
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
[quote=rg@ofmc]This decision was successfully challenged by a consortium of groups who, using historical data kept by the Smiley family, were able to show that the Marriot plan approved by the DEC would actually drain Lake Minnewaska.


Here is an example of the type of information that has brought tears to my eyes, when learning about the Smiley legacy. God bless the Smiley Family(and I am not a *religious* type.).

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#57853 - 06/08/11 12:19 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: rg@ofmc]
Rickster Online   content
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 845
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
And more apple sampled from around the state.
A day at Bellearye Beach (DEC) a screaming deal at $2, or, x-c skiing at Bellearye-Free, a cheap lift ticket $54.
Gore $66,
Whiteface $77.
Fire Island State Park- Parking $10/car, star gazing at a state beach-$30, metal detecting-$40,
Tennis at Bethpage State Park-$23. Also at Bethpage, to fly your RC airplane-$40, a round of 18 holes of golf-$43 and $8 parking per car.

These may not seem much akin to hiking or climbing in the Gunks, but they illustrate how the state will charge for the activities that a particular recreational venue has to offer regardless of overhead.

Still can't get my mind around a $30 fee to go star gazing or $40 to walk the beach with a metal detector at Fire Island's Robert Moses State Park.

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#57854 - 06/08/11 12:27 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: rg@ofmc]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
Rich, these are of course good points. It's important to note though that none of those developments came to pass.

A big upside for state ownership of open space is the state pays property taxes. For example, what was once Awosting Reserve, and is now part of Minnewaska State Park, is still a source of property tax income for the town of Gardiner.

Second, the state hasn't sued Minnewaska State Park neighbors, nor has the state ever filed a fraudulent quit claim deed.

And finally, the State of New York has not deeply immersed itself in local politics, to influence master plans and zoning laws, so that it's cheaper for them to buy land.

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#57855 - 06/08/11 12:37 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: daryl512]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
For some additional perspective, a New York State Empire Passport is $65. "The Passport provides access to 178 state parks, 55 Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) forest preserve areas, as well as to boat launch sites, arboretums and park preserves."

Robert Moses State Park is among them. The full list is here .

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#57857 - 06/08/11 01:42 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Kent]
Rickster Online   content
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 845
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
As are all the state beach parks. The Empire Pass has long been one of the very best deals available anywhere, it is essentially a parking pass. If you take public transportation,walk, boat, or bicycle many of these same parks are then free of admission fees. The NYS park system is a wonderful attribute and offers equally wonderful opportunities to our residents and visitors. However, I don't agree that hypothetically, the MP lands would be better administered by any state agency.

Long live the MP.

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#57858 - 06/08/11 02:02 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Rickster]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
I don't think the MP will be going anywhere any time soon. And rightfully so as there are many wonderful things about the preserve.

The coercive, predatory, and confrontational land acquisition tactics of the Executive Director and the Board of Directors are not among them however.

Edited to ad:

Criticism of the MP is not about their land management practices but about the aforementioned tactics and also their unwillingness to make donations in lieu of taxes equivalent to what the state would pay if the state owned the land.


Edited by Kent (06/08/11 02:17 PM)

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#57859 - 06/08/11 02:45 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Kent]
retr2327 Offline
member

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 108
"That's the unfortunate fact of life in land management -- if you let people do whatever they want, inevitibly [sic] they will destroy it until even they can't use it any more."

You (unwittingly) make a good point. Now think about how it might apply if the Gunks was free.

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#57860 - 06/08/11 02:47 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Kent]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5967
Loc: 212 land
their unwillingness to make donations in lieu of taxes equivalent to what the state would pay if the state owned the land.

I recall some time ago that the Preserve voluntarily paid $1/acre in lieu of property tax. Has this changed?
_________________________

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#57861 - 06/08/11 03:10 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: oenophore]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
The Mohonk Preserve pays about $2 an acre.

The State of New York pays about $50 an acre.

Regular taxpayers pay about $200 an acre.

Numbers are approximate.

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#57866 - 06/08/11 04:02 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Kent]
Rickster Online   content
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 845
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
"The State of New York pays about $50 an acre."

And, with such a huge park system, that is a lot of taxpayer's dollars paying a lot of taxes.
Do our local governments, village, town and county also pay a tax on their park lands? For instance, a village owns a park, does it pay taxes to the town? Or, the Ulster County Pool and Fair Grounds, does Ulster County pay taxes to the Town New Paltz?

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#57868 - 06/08/11 04:53 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Rickster]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
I should narrow my statement about NY State payment of taxes. $50 an acre is about how much they pay to the Town of Gardiner on what was formerly Awosting Reserve.

As for the other municipalities in question, I dunno.

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#57877 - 06/09/11 02:37 AM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: retr2327]
stoopid Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 67
Loc: West Sand Lake, NY
Originally Posted By: retr2327
"That's the unfortunate fact of life in land management -- if you let people do whatever they want, inevitibly [sic] they will destroy it until even they can't use it any more."

You (unwittingly) make a good point. Now think about how it might apply if the Gunks was free.


Climbing areas in the ADKs, even the most heavily used ones, are in fine shape thank you. smile The climbing community polices itself just fine. Each one teach one.

I don't think because we pay for access at Mohonk necessarily makes it 'better' than places that don't charge.


Edited by stoopid (06/09/11 02:39 AM)

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#57878 - 06/09/11 01:53 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: stoopid]
retr2327 Offline
member

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 108
So why aren't you going to the Daks? The likely answer (it's too long a trip for regular use) says a lot about why overuse is not a problem there.

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#57879 - 06/09/11 04:12 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: retr2327]
stoopid Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 67
Loc: West Sand Lake, NY
Um, WE DO! Actually, most of our climbing starting in May is up there (I live in Albany which puts me about midway from the ADKs or gunks). The gunks are a nice weekday spot, or weekends early/late season when not so crowded.

The drive to the adks is probably a big factor for downstaters. This partly explains why down state climbers frequent the gunks. It's their financial habits (ie - what they expect to pay that seems reasonable compared to the other costs of living in the NYC area, which are notoriously high) that are partly to blame for the pricing the rest of us have to endure. If the gunks were the same distance as the adks from NYC we'd be having a completely different conversation, and likely the Gunks would be a DEC managed land since there would be less downstate money involved and it would be just another big wall. Take Poke-o for example - huge wall, but far enough from metro areas to still be considered 'wild' and free.


Edited by stoopid (06/09/11 04:18 PM)

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#57882 - 06/09/11 05:12 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: stoopid]
Welle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 213
Loc: Western Slope
Originally Posted By: stoopid
If the gunks were the same distance as the adks from NYC we'd be having a completely different conversation, and likely the Gunks would be a DEC managed land since there would be less downstate money involved and it would be just another big wall. Take Poke-o for example - huge wall, but far enough from metro areas to still be considered 'wild' and free.


The only reason people are not lining up to climb at Poke-O is that there is only one moderate route on it for which there is already a conga line on any given day. If you transported the abundance of 5.3 multi-pitch climbs, carriage roads, good cell phone reception, a nice little town with enough lodging/dining options and enough things to entertain your spouse/children while you go climbing, the Daks will be mobbed. Have you been to Rumney on a weekend? 5+ hour drive from NYC doesn't keep climbers away. Daks or North Conway in winter? 7+ hours to N.Conway doesn't deter climbers as long as they can find reliable fat moderate ice lines close to the road...

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#57884 - 06/09/11 06:27 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Welle]
pitfall Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/01/00
Posts: 1165
Loc: Albany
Originally Posted By: Welle
Have you been to Rumney on a weekend? 5+ hour drive from NYC doesn't keep climbers away. Daks or North Conway in winter? 7+ hours to N.Conway doesn't deter climbers as long as they can find reliable fat moderate ice lines close to the road...
Yeah, Rumney's proximity to Boston has nothing to do with the weekend crowds.
_________________________

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#57887 - 06/09/11 09:33 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: pitfall]
TerrieM Offline
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
The cost of Mohonk doesn't have anything to do with "what the market will bear." I am sorry, but it is really offensive to suggest that the board members discuss "How MUCH do you think we can get away with" as the rationale for the fees.

The annual reports are available online, so far as I know. I personally haven't looked at them because I don't have the ability to analyze the numbers. But as I learn more about what the preserve is, and the issues that it faces, I tend not to think I know better as to how much it should cost for a day in the Gunks.

On the other hand - for regional users - I bet many of them buy the yearly membership. If you came here 2 times per month for the weekend(4 days a month) from May through September(5 months) - that's 20 sessions. $90 divide by 20.... $4.75 a day, right? Not $17.

For those who use it more? For the many people who use the preserve 3,4,5 times a week? Nearly year round?

And what of that? I imagine those people ARE the ones the preserve most wishes to educate. How much, realistically, would such an entity desire to teach a once a year, long weekend, visitor about the place? And so.... why WOULD you want to "make it cheap" for people far and wide, who won't CARE about the barred owls, the rare plants, and such to come? Why WOULDN'T you use a higher fee as a way to - if not reduce the number of users - to at least think twice to themselves "hey - maybe I should be a little aware, if this place costs to get in, maybe there is something special about it?"

Maybe I haven't been very clear in this point, so sorry if it's not understandable. I'm tired - trying to follow my visiting friend up all her routes this week...

At any rate - the preserve is not the Daks. It is not a state entity. It is a private entity. Comparing the two is comparing apples and oranges, I believe.


Now, I have said more than a few times that I think it would be cool if the preserve had some sort of intermediate pass. Maybe a 5 and/or 10 use(one person. non-transferable) punch pass that lasted a year, and ended up costing a less than a yearly membership, and certainly less than the same number of day passes. This would help out the people who DO appreciate the preserve - the twice a year long weekender, or the annual vacationer.

BUT!

I don't own the preserve, and I am not on the board of directors. It's really not my place to say what they "should do." Having an opinion is one thing, but some of the vitriol I hear(and not just on this thread, but over and over)? It's pretty - I don't know what word to use, actually.

Lats night, by the way, I saw a wild cat. Maybe it was just a big mofo of a housecat... but... It was watching me in the woods, and I a=only knew it was there because of it's glowing eyes. Take away these animal's habitats(and increased use by people WILL have that effect) and the preserev fails in it's mission. Their mission is NOT to provide a source of cheap recreation for outdoors enthusiasts......



Edited by TerrieM (06/09/11 10:16 PM)

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#57888 - 06/09/11 10:28 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: pitfall]
Welle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 213
Loc: Western Slope
Originally Posted By: pitfall
Originally Posted By: Welle
Have you been to Rumney on a weekend? 5+ hour drive from NYC doesn't keep climbers away. Daks or North Conway in winter? 7+ hours to N.Conway doesn't deter climbers as long as they can find reliable fat moderate ice lines close to the road...
Yeah, Rumney's proximity to Boston has nothing to do with the weekend crowds.


Not ALL NYC climbers climb at the Gunks. There is a fair amount who goes to Rumney pretty regularly. and there is a fair amount of Boston, Philly and DC climbers who climb at the Gunks on a regular basis. Distance is not the issue.

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#57889 - 06/09/11 10:36 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: daryl512]
Ralph Offline
member

Registered: 02/01/07
Posts: 139
Looks like "the State" (the article doesn't specify an agency)
hasn't been managing Minnewaska too well. Don't mess with Al Smiley
Looks like the State Office of Parks wants to be a friend to the Preserve Reconnecting the Ridge

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#57890 - 06/09/11 10:57 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Ralph]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
I'll say again, most people wouldn't blink an eye to spend 17 dollars to climb on plastic in a gym for an hour and a half...but ask them to pay that for an entire day of REAL climbing on wolrd class rock, and they go all wiggy. I just don't get it. Not that I'm a big fan of having to pay money....but lets put things in a little perspective.

Movie, popcorn, and soda is more than 17 dollars
Climbing gym is probably more than that
a cheap ticket to a ballgame is WAAAAY more than that
going to a concert costs way more

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#57891 - 06/09/11 11:19 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: daryl512]
BrianRI Offline
newbie

Registered: 06/10/05
Posts: 29
For $17 I want colored tape on all the holds! And how about air conditioning? It has been awfully hot lately. And can't you do something about those damn chiggers? Spray DDT?

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#57892 - 06/10/11 12:41 AM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: BrianRI]
daryl512 Offline

veteran

Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 1256
Loc: Rochester, NY
As it's been so long since I've been and I haven't done any research as to how the money is used I'm probably speaking out of my ass right now.
I'm looking at my last day pass which was probably from 2003. The pass states $5/Person, $7/Weekends & Holidays. I have a hard time thinking that the Preserve needed to increase the cost by like 150% in a span of eight years????
I'm certianly not in a place to argue with anyone about it but can anyone explain to me what this cost increase went to?

D
_________________________
At this point in my life I should be daryl5.3 not daryl512

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#57896 - 06/10/11 12:01 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: daryl512]
TerrieM Offline
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
I started climbing in 2005, and if I recall correctly(which I may not), I think it was $12 for a climbing day pass. I recall there was an increase of some dollars around then, and a brouhahah ensued.

But that's all I know....


I was talking to my friend yesterday, after my rant above. She is here from Bishop. I met her 2 years ago online when she came here to climb. She wanted to lead on gear, and had done 2 leads(unbeknownst to me....). Started out following me on Belly Roll, and by the end of day had led Limelight. Next Day - Directissima and Ant's Line.

She bout a yearly pass that, the next and this year. She has been on the Preserve starting Monday, and will climb a half day Saturday before departing. Wednesday she went to Mountain House while I had "off" - and paid $10 for herself(with membership) and $20 for her dad, who hadn't one.

She listened to me bitching about this thread and she said "Well, you know...." and figured she had saved $5 by buying the yearly membership. Coming from Cali, where so much excellent access is free, she said "Terrie - $17 IS expensive!!!"

I said something about Mohonk "educating" people, and the conversation came around to she mentioning she pays $15 a month to support Greenpeace. I said - That's $180 a year - twice a Mohink Membership." And she said "And I don't get ANYTHING from that!"(meaning a tangible benefit, such as....climbing. Or hiking.)

I said "Yes - well you are supprting the work Greenpeace does. THAT is the benefit. So, instead of looking at the cost of Mohonk Membership(and, by proxy, day pass, since that is what we talk about in this thread) as "getting x days climbing" look at it as $90 for 365 days, 24 hours a day of protecting and caring for this land."

The light went on....




Now - some people don't give a rat's ASS about protecting this land. They just.want.to.climb.


Well - if that's the case - go f yerself, is what I say! Stay the hell away, because you just.don'.get.it.

If you use the preserve - and you PAY ATTENTION - you will eventually discover the connection. If you don't know what that means, I cannot help you. It is something you must experience. I got it by walking the Shongum Path. Maybe try that - the next 25 times you visit, walk that path, and pay attention. It was the way the natives crossed the ridge for hunting(and pmaybe social life with others, I guess, like the way they would go from Tuolumne to the Valley n the salt pilgrimages).

Listen to what this land has to tell you and you will know why it is so important to not fuck it up, this small bit of land that has not been ginzo-knifed into half acre parcels. Why a sacrifice of $90, or $17 is really a very insignificant price to pay.


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#57897 - 06/10/11 02:58 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: TerrieM]
Mim Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/27/00
Posts: 999
Loc: Gunks
Originally Posted By: TerrieM

The annual reports are available online, so far as I know.


In addition, there is a study on the positive economic impact generated by the entities on the Ridge, which I can copy/paste here (10 pages) or can email to anyone - just PM me. It is a PDF file.
_________________________
Mim

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#57898 - 06/10/11 04:18 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Mim]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Terri - re. your big cat. I just read on Yahoo that there's a confirmed mtn lion in Greenwich CT right now. Yet NY, and apparently CT too, stick with their "there are no mtn lions east of missouri" party line. I guess it makes it easier for them to do their jobs if they just deny the cats. WAY too many sightings reported over the last 20 years for me to buy that.

PS - the cats are all "escaped from captivity". Yea right, like we all have mtn lions that don't come home after we let them out at night.

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#57900 - 06/10/11 05:34 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Mike Rawdon]
Rickster Online   content
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 845
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
MIke, that report was also carried by NBC yesterday morning. Upon visiting the web, there have been numerous reports of sitings in MA and elswhere in CT. There were enough sightings, pictures, video etc. regarding this week's CT sitings, they even put a local school on shut down for a short while.

How many people have captive mountain lions that there should be this rash of escaped or released beasties? Why would the big cats from Missouri not follow the food chain east as white tail popuations explode east of the Mississippi?

I still get nervous as I hike about the Shawangunk ridge and come upon those large, widely spaced cat foot prints.

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#57901 - 06/10/11 06:48 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Rickster]
pcooke Offline
stranger

Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 9
Mike,
Maybe it's the Dos Equis guy's pet Mountain Lion....

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#57902 - 06/10/11 08:13 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Rickster]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5967
Loc: 212 land
Wouldn't be nice to have a few mountain lions resident on the Preserve?
_________________________

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#57903 - 06/10/11 08:56 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: oenophore]
curmudgeon Online   content
addict

Registered: 10/27/10
Posts: 466
I thought I spotted one the other day on Lyons Road.

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#57905 - 06/10/11 10:08 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: curmudgeon]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Our local cougar (northern delaware) has taken to wandering more urban areas of late. Sightings are at least weekly and it doesn't cost anything!
Again, I would pay as much as I could to keep as much of the wilderness and big tracts like the ridge in private hands.

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#57907 - 06/11/11 12:47 AM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: chip]
TerrieM Offline
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
I saw a real mountain lion last year. It wasn't on the preserve though. Maybe some will say I am crazy, but I was in a car with the guy who often paints on the preserve(red minivan/handicap plates), and he saw it too. He picked me up hitch hiking and we were on 299 headed into NP.

The mountain lion crossed the road from north to other side just west of where the marsh where you often see the goose family each year. It passed in front of the car ahead of us and I had plenty of time to see it - wow! It was absolutely a cat, and a big one.

I was told that "if there were confirmed sightings of them, then protection efforts would, by law, need to be enacted." It seemed to involve quite a lot of things, studies, restrictions, etc. That may answer the question.....

But the cat I saw the other night was too small for a mountain lion, and really even smaller than a bob cat. Isn't there some sort of animal that looks cattish, but maybe isn't technically a cat, around here? I can't recall the name, but I think it is one syllable.

Anyway - wild life is cool!

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#57909 - 06/11/11 01:06 AM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: TerrieM]
charliebutters Offline
addict

Registered: 11/11/01
Posts: 510
Loc: accord
fisher cat...loves house cats yummy!

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#57910 - 06/11/11 01:25 AM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: charliebutters]
curmudgeon Online   content
addict

Registered: 10/27/10
Posts: 466
Nobody got my joke.

Mountain lion spotted on Lyons Road.

Get it!



Edited by curmudgeon (06/11/11 01:58 AM)

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#57911 - 06/11/11 10:50 AM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: curmudgeon]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5967
Loc: 212 land
Nobody got my joke.

How do you know?
_________________________

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#57912 - 06/11/11 01:08 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: oenophore]
curmudgeon Online   content
addict

Registered: 10/27/10
Posts: 466
I'd be lyin' if I said I knew.

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#57914 - 06/11/11 04:27 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: curmudgeon]
TerrieM Offline
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
I didn't get the joke, but I should have. Funny! hee hee!

Maybe the animal I saw was a Fischer. That IS the one-syllable name I was thinking of....

The tail was low and fat like the images I saw, but I am not sure about the head, and I think the color may have been lighter.

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#57916 - 06/11/11 05:39 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: TerrieM]
curmudgeon Online   content
addict

Registered: 10/27/10
Posts: 466
I saw one once at Skytop over by Fissure Ramins.

This one had a tall tail.

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#57952 - 06/13/11 04:50 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: RangerRob]
stoopid Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 67
Loc: West Sand Lake, NY
Originally Posted By: RangerRob
I'll say again, most people wouldn't blink an eye to spend 17 dollars to climb on plastic in a gym for an hour and a half...but ask them to pay that for an entire day of REAL climbing on wolrd class rock, and they go all wiggy. I just don't get it. Not that I'm a big fan of having to pay money....but lets put things in a little perspective.


The Mohonk Preserve Inc didn't build the walls. In the case of a rock gym, it's entirely man made with a large overhead (rent, electricity, prior construction expenses being recoup'd, etc). In my mind it makes sense to pay for indoor climb time, but I feel open spaces (ie - anything NOT manmade) should be as accessible as possible. I'm against most fees for recreational access in the outdoors, although much of the time you can make a reasonable case for nominal fees.

The reason I made the points I have (I'm not ignoring you Terrie, I just don't believe I can ever change your mind = waste of time refuting your post(s)) is to point out that the preserve is a business entity, whether by legalese or practice. The give-away is guarding entrances to ensure fee collection. I was at a book store yesterday that had a drop box and $30 in it to make change. The owner stepped away, and was never seen during our 30 minutes stay. There's farms not far from the Gunks that do the same thing. Mohonk is genuinely obsessed and concerned about that income.

While there are some visitors from everywhere at Rumney, it is by no means a NYC crag. Majority of the regulars are from the Boston area. The rumney coalition of climbers has exact numbers if you contact them.

Distance plays HUGE part in demographics, regardless of what one might believe and/or post on the internet. I've studied some numbers for other outdoors activities unrelated to this discussion, and 99% of the time simple conclusions can be drawn from just glancing at the raw data... people who live further away visit a place less often than people nearer. The 1% exception are the largest, grandest places that don't have large population centers near them (Zion, Grand Canyon, Tetons, Yellowstone, etc). These places get a mjaority of their visitors from elsewhere since there's no large cities nearby. This is common knowledge among those employed in recreation dependent fields. It's important they know this so they target their advertising dollars appropriately. Spending a boatload of money convincing residents from Illinois to come stay at your bread and breakfast in the Catskills would be foolish.


Edited by stoopid (06/13/11 06:31 PM)

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#57953 - 06/13/11 04:53 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: stoopid]
stoopid Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 67
Loc: West Sand Lake, NY
Fwiw, I've seen a fisher along the road early AM heading toward the crag. I doubt you have mountain lions... but I don't doubt they're in New York.


Edited by stoopid (06/13/11 04:54 PM)

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#57958 - 06/13/11 05:37 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: stoopid]
Rickster Online   content
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 845
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Off thread again. The CT mountain lion (or another one) was hit and killed by a car just a few days ago. Interested folks will have to wait and see what the DNA has to say regarding which population it has come from. Quebec, Missouri, Wisconsin, or farther west?

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#57963 - 06/13/11 08:52 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Rickster]
TerrieM Offline
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
I know what I saw last year. Some asked "Do you think it coulda been a dog?"

Well - I know dogs, and I know cats, and they don't move the same way. The person I was with and I got a very good look at this animal. The ONLY part I did not register seeing was the tail, and that was because I was looking at the heard, then shoulders and legs, and then the torso, as it moved across the road. By the time I would have seen the tail, it was already in the tall grasses along side the road. The driver stopped the car, but the MOUNTAIN LION had already blended into the grass.

Another local, whom I believe is knowledgable and not prone to exageration(which I do have to admit I could be accused of and have no defense at times) says he spotted on in Minnewaska.


I have read(about this one killed in CT) that they have quite an ability to range. It would be really sad to imagine the one I saw was the same as was killed. But it is sad, no matter what, to have such a cool animal hit by a car.


As for Fischers - I did see one last year over by the Mohonk Mountain House.



And on a tangent, this winter a whole bunch of little animals crossed the road in front of us. I though it was a bear cub, but then a second, and a third, and a fourth came... No bear has that many cubs! But I couldn't tell what they were from where I was. My friend was in a car ahead, and so later I asked him. He said "wild pigs!" I was like "WWWTTTF???" But then I read about Javalinas being in that area(Cochise Stronghold/southern AZ).


And on another note.... I saw the cutest little turtle crossing the road this morning.

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#57969 - 06/14/11 10:15 AM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: TerrieM]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
We had turkey chicks in the front yard two days ago. They were fluffy l'il things maybe 4-5 inches in diameter. They ran fast though, as their mom ambled into the woods.

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#57970 - 06/14/11 12:33 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Mike Rawdon]
Rickster Online   content
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 845
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
And those hundreds of red spotted newts (red efts) playing in the carriage roads on Sunday? How cute was that?

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#57975 - 06/14/11 03:06 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Rickster]
TerrieM Offline
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
I only see an eft here and there. I would be so thrilled to see them en masse!



One thing I thought about after signing off last night, in regards to the post about "guarding" the gates - I know that a lot of people view the trailhead people in that way, and seem to see the preserve negatively because they have someone there, but the trailhead people are NOT there solely to "make sure people pay."

Just because WE know where we are going on the preserve doesn't mean that everyone else does.... I've spent some time hanging out and chatting with trailhead people at their post, or the rangers atop the steel bridge. Quite a number of people have plenty of questions and other things they inquire the trailheads/rangers about.

So - they act as information providers

Also, they are a deterrent to car break-ins. Someone driving into a parking lot with the awareness that nearly all the cars there will not have their person walking back any minute now is going to think twice about it if they pass someone at the gate. It's not likely that a thief is going to buy a day pass (or be a member). But drive past a kiosk that is always empty...and the opportunity is there, for such a person. There is HUGE trouble with break-ins at some crags.

So - they act as an obstacle for the opportunist thief to get past.

The trailheads are also not manned religiously - If it's a crappy day weatherwise, the trailhead person doesn't stay. And not that I am condoning sneaking in to the preserve - if one were so inclined it wouldn't be that difficult. If the preserve is SO all about the money, wouldn't it benefit them to put in a more stringent controls? An example might be having volunteers similar to the GUMBA cyclists. People who walk about the place with an authorative T'shirt, but instead of doing what the GUMBA's do, they are asking to see wrist bands and passes....

STP(still don't want to use that username, and won't use your real name, since you didn't log in with it) - I'm not trying to be argumentative with you specifically, and you needn't respond to this post(as you are definitely correct that we have opposing views and mine, on this, won't be swayed easily). I hear the same remarks from many, and when I see one person say "They're only in it for the money," I imagine others might read that and go "yea!" - but maybe getting a different perspective on the topic might make that "yeah!" be more of a "hmmm...." and think about it themselves.

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#57979 - 06/14/11 03:45 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: TerrieM]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
I can't believe this mountain lion thread has popped up again. How much scientific data (or lack thereof in this example) do people need to convince them of the truth??? I suppose there will alays be a small population of people who just want to believe so badly that they will convince themselves of it, despite the facts. One cat does not a breeding population make.

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#57980 - 06/14/11 03:47 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: TerrieM]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
For a long time, there was not much enforcement and there were many climbers sneaking in.

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#57981 - 06/14/11 05:24 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: chip]
SethG Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 709
Loc: NYC
It is still very easy to sneak in during the week. I would do it all the time but for the fact that I buy an annual membership because I support the Preserve.
_________________________
It's true, I have a blog. http://climbandpunishment.blogspot.com/

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#57983 - 06/14/11 08:12 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: SethG]
Coppertone Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Newtown, CT
back to the mountain lion, my friend got a little creative


http://www.greenwichmountainlion.com/

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#58032 - 06/17/11 11:07 AM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: TerrieM]
stoopid Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 67
Loc: West Sand Lake, NY
Originally Posted By: TerrieM
So - they act as information providers

Also, they are a deterrent to car break-ins... There is HUGE trouble with break-ins at some crags.

...but maybe getting a different perspective on the topic might make that "yeah!" be more of a "hmmm...." and think about it themselves.


I'm all for open minded, open ended discussion, but when I read your posts I feel like I'm being force to drink Mohonk flavored Kool aid. smile

Information providers -- you could say a police officer patroling the streets is the same, but that's not their primary purpose. The fact their positions are at key entrance points is clearly an indication their employment isn't about helping others, it's about checking for passes. Helping is a distant secondary outcome. It's very obvious to me at least.

Break-in deterent -- really? How would they know who's gear/rack/stuff is who's? Unless they see the break-in first hand, this isn't a valid reason. And for them to see anything they have to leave their post, which they don't do until sometime in the afternoon. The only parking area the guard/sentry can see in any detail is the smaller lower lot (near the stair master), and even half of that is out of view. Plus they have the usual "we're not responsible if someone steals your stuff" clause, if they had any real interest in guarding the vehicles they wouldn't have this disclaimer.

BTW, where are these problem break-in crags located? I've heard of one incident in 4+ years climbing, and by all accouts that was noted because of how rare break-ins are. Not saying it can't, won't , or doesn't happen, but if you're making a case for the guards serving a dual purpose there needs to be some substance to your claim that they're even needed for that purpose.

These are great examples of why I doubt anything you say to be the truth (it might be what you believe, but it's just an opinion and comes across as the official Mohonk "shpeel" to keep the flock in line). I'd wish to hell someone from Mohonk would grow a pair and admit they have a large interest in securing their income (and while at it admit climbers are a CRITICAL portion of that income -- in other words, show respect and appreciation to those keeping the lights on). Instead you dance around this, appealing to people's emotions and sympathy as a smoke/mirrors tactic to avoid getting at the heart of the matter.


Edited by stoopid (06/17/11 11:12 AM)

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#58036 - 06/17/11 12:24 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: stoopid]
Rickster Online   content
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 845
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Stoopid et al,
"CRITICAL portion of that income"
From yesterday's new in the mail "2010 Year In Review" booklet from the MP
2010 Operating Income: $2,572,893.00
24% Contributions
24% Membership
15% Annual Contribution in Lieu of I&D
15% Entry Fees
8% Grants
5% Special Programs/Events
4% Other Fees
2% Grant & Donor Carry forward
2% Other Income
1% Nature Shop

The gate staff insures the receipt of that 15% from Entry Fees,or $385,933.00

Yes Stoopid, I'd say the day use fee is a CRITICAL income source, and would add that it is CRITICAL that the gate staff be there to collect it.

"I'd wish to hell someone from Mohonk would grow a pair and admit they have a large interest in securing their income"

Stoopid, It should be obvious by the presence of gate staff, continual fund raising events, mailings, membership drives, day fees, etc. that the MP is very interested in securing it's income. No different than any other business, government, non-profit, family, or anyone for that matter. Why should they "grow a pair and admit" something that is just so evident.

"... in other words, show respect and appreciation to those keeping the lights
on."

Stoopid, how does the MP not show respect and appreciation to it's members and day visitors, particularly climbers?

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#58037 - 06/17/11 12:40 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Rickster]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
I have heard of numerous breakins at T-Wall and Red Rocks. TWall had a SERIOUS problem in 2007 that was much discussed online. Haven't heard of Gunks breakins. Theft from MUA and Camp Slime have happened however.

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#58039 - 06/17/11 02:12 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Rickster]
tradjunkie Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 364
Originally Posted By: Rickster

Stoopid, how does the MP not show respect and appreciation to it's members and day visitors, particularly climbers?


Anybody know what proportion of day permits are climbers, what proportion of members are climbers? By which I mean have climbing passes. Or what proportion of total visit-days are by climber-privileged visitors?

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#58041 - 06/17/11 03:49 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: tradjunkie]
whatthegunks Offline
member

Registered: 05/09/09
Posts: 135
Loc: High Falls, NY
It does not seem that long ago (five or six years ago?) that Rich Gottleib's wife had her car window smashed and bag stolen at the Stairmaster lot. There have been a number of times over the years that cars were getting broken into, periods where some jackass random(s) or other were doing the smash and go. Walking out of the Stairmaster yesterday I passed a pick up with a cap/mobile doss that had a whole array of gear strewn about in it and I thought, damn that's a trusting soul. Having Preserve staff down there and around in general has got to be a deterrent to ne'er-do-wells.

Of course the Preserve is adding staff at trail heads to be sure to collect funds for passes. It should be noted that MP is PRIVATE land, it was bought by the Smiley family over the course of decades and that the trust was created to protect the land not the perceived rights of one or another user group. We are incredibly lucky to have access to the Gunks and some humility about it all rather than indignant ranting seems to make sense.

Drink the Kool-Aid, Stoopid!

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#58050 - 06/17/11 07:51 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: tradjunkie]
stoopid Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 67
Loc: West Sand Lake, NY
Originally Posted By: tradjunkie
Originally Posted By: Rickster

Stoopid, how does the MP not show respect and appreciation to it's members and day visitors, particularly climbers?


Anybody know what proportion of day permits are climbers, what proportion of members are climbers? By which I mean have climbing passes. Or what proportion of total visit-days are by climber-privileged visitors?


The mystery wrapped therein is part of the issue. It's a prevailing attitude I see every now and then. I come from a hiking background, in which the user group is literally catered to. For whatever reason (I'm guessing stigma/prejudice/stereotypes) climbers seem to be looked down upon and discarded.

On a side note unrelated to Mohonk -- someone I know overheard the owner of the store at the bottom of the hill (Bistro?) say that "most of [their] business does not come from climbers". Are they for friggin real? I know when I'm in there early it's nothing BUT climbers, buying sandwiches (their breakfast sandwiches are awesome and filling) and drinks for the day. The person either has a serious beef with climbers (would not be a first as I've personally seen/experienced this), they only think poorly dressed dirtbags are climbers, or they live in a parallel universe. As a working mid-career professional I must look and smell like a hiker to them. lol


Edited by stoopid (06/17/11 08:04 PM)

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#58051 - 06/17/11 07:56 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: whatthegunks]
stoopid Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 67
Loc: West Sand Lake, NY
Originally Posted By: whatthegunks
It does not seem that long ago (five or six years ago?) that Rich Gottleib's wife had her car window smashed and bag stolen at the Stairmaster lot. There have been a number of times over the years that cars were getting broken into, periods where some jackass random(s) or other were doing the smash and go. Walking out of the Stairmaster yesterday I passed a pick up with a cap/mobile doss that had a whole array of gear strewn about in it and I thought, damn that's a trusting soul. Having Preserve staff down there and around in general has got to be a deterrent to ne'er-do-wells.

Of course the Preserve is adding staff at trail heads to be sure to collect funds for passes. It should be noted that MP is PRIVATE land, it was bought by the Smiley family over the course of decades and that the trust was created to protect the land not the perceived rights of one or another user group. We are incredibly lucky to have access to the Gunks and some humility about it all rather than indignant ranting seems to make sense.


Of the breakins, I assume the staff were colelcting fees as they normally do, 'patroling' the same points of entry as they normally do? Was their presence critical in preventing those breakins? Need a bit more info, we're trying to build a case for the guards being more than just ticket collectors.

It seems that the use of "private" in this thread is suppose to bring me in line with the "you should be thanking them" mentality I guess I'm supposed to have. But I pay a fee for access, so who should be thanking who? What would they be doing with this land otherwise? Is this not the best use of 1.5 miles of climbing wall? What other grand design could they have possibly executed with the trapps? So, really, spare me the sentimentality. If they were giving it away for free I could see it.


Edited by stoopid (06/17/11 07:57 PM)

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#58054 - 06/17/11 08:14 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: stoopid]
stoopid Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 67
Loc: West Sand Lake, NY
Just a fyi, with no disrespect intended to anyone participating, I'm going to excuse myself from the discussion. I feel like I'm spinning my wheels and it's probably best to just move on and spend the internet time doing other things.

Maybe I'll meet you all someday at the crag.

Kevin

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#58057 - 06/17/11 11:33 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: stoopid]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Originally Posted By: stoopid


On a side note unrelated to Mohonk -- someone I know overheard the owner of the store at the bottom of the hill (Bistro?) say that "most of [their] business does not come from climbers". Are they for friggin real? I know when I'm in there early it's nothing BUT climbers, buying sandwiches (their breakfast sandwiches are awesome and filling) and drinks for the day. The person either has a serious beef with climbers (would not be a first as I've personally seen/experienced this), they only think poorly dressed dirtbags are climbers, or they live in a parallel universe. As a working mid-career professional I must look and smell like a hiker to them. lol


I'm guessing you don't happen by there the other 5 days of the week. Or at lunch times. Yes, climbers mob the place Sat and Sun mornings, but the local blue collar folks are what their base business appears to be about (based on what I've seen).

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#58058 - 06/18/11 02:30 AM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Mike Rawdon]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Maybe if the Preserve raised the day fees we could get rid of the rif-raf!



OK, I'm kiddin', sorta.

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#58063 - 06/18/11 09:08 AM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Mike Rawdon]
stoopid Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 67
Loc: West Sand Lake, NY
Originally Posted By: Mike Rawdon
I'm guessing you don't happen by there the other 5 days of the week. Or at lunch times. Yes, climbers mob the place Sat and Sun mornings, but the local blue collar folks are what their base business appears to be about (based on what I've seen).


That's very possible. It didn't occur to me that anyone other than visitors would frequent their establishment considering it's pretty far off the path from New paltz and any other larger towns in the area. Seems like a long way for locals to go to get a cup of coffee, and there aren't enough residents living nearby to support it by themselves...

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#58064 - 06/18/11 11:29 AM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: stoopid]
Welle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 213
Loc: Western Slope
Originally Posted By: stoopid
It didn't occur to me that anyone other than visitors would frequent their establishment considering it's pretty far off the path from New paltz and any other larger towns in the area.


New Paltz is not the only town in the area...

Originally Posted By: stoopid
and there aren't enough residents living nearby to support it by themselves...


Ha, the MPNA would like you to think otherwise...

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#58071 - 06/18/11 06:44 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Welle]
TerrieM Offline
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
I got a ride from someone yesterday who was coming from New Paltz to grab a sandwich at the Deli. It turned out his friend worked there, and he was visiting him on his day off, but... there ya go!

And though it may seem like "all climbers" at 8am on a weekend - what exactly does a "climber look like?" Might it be that some of those people are also hikers or bikers? And....I spend some time on the Deli wi-fi during weekday afternoons. Plenty of non-outdoorsy people stop in there. Also - this region has a pretyy big, dispersed, population. There are little smatterings of houses dotting the place in miles each direction. Also - Hwy 44/55 is a MAJOR thoroughfare over the ridge. Truck drivers pull into the lot kitty corner often.

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#58088 - 06/20/11 02:46 AM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Welle]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: Welle
Originally Posted By: stoopid
It didn't occur to me that anyone other than visitors would frequent their establishment considering it's pretty far off the path from New paltz and any other larger towns in the area.


New Paltz is not the only town in the area...

Originally Posted By: stoopid
and there aren't enough residents living nearby to support it by themselves...


Ha, the MPNA would like you to think otherwise...



First off, the Mohonk Preserve (formerly Mohonk Trust) was created long before any sort of housing or tourist boom in ulster county happened and in fact was created because the Mountain House was having financial problems. Much of the land would exist as open space as it does today mainly because most of the land that the Mohonk Preserve owns is inaccessible or very hard to develop. Look at the ridge as it currently exists, not a single ridge top house despite much of the land being in private hands. Even with all of the houses "on the ridge" most are hidden when looked at from the flats. Even the night time view is void of house lights with the exception of the Mountain House and Smiley tower. Welle is correct that the local economy alone could not support the Mohonk Preserve, the bloated salary of Glenn Hoagland and the ever growing public relations department that has unsuccessfully tried to drown out the many voices of the neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve makes sure of that.

Thanks,MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#58090 - 06/20/11 04:00 AM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Advocacy group]
cog Offline
stranger

Registered: 05/05/11
Posts: 8
wow. you're a real ass, aren't you.

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#58093 - 06/20/11 02:24 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: cog]
Coppertone Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Newtown, CT
If you don't want to pay $17 for a day pass then don't go. No one is twisting anyones arm. I happen to think that $15 for a movie is too much so I don't complain, I just don't go. I value my Gunks experiences and have no problem paying for a season pass. I also have no problem paying the $17 if I am taking someone for a day for their first experience. Its a choice I make. The preserve puts a price on entry that they think is what they need to charge. The $17 is just like any other service or product out there that you can choose whether or not to purchase. No one is being wronged by the entry fee. If you feel that the cost is too steep then go some place else or stay home. There are allot things that I feel are just too much money so I don't buy them. There is no need to cry about it.

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#58094 - 06/20/11 03:06 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Coppertone]
RobA Offline
newbie

Registered: 04/16/09
Posts: 46
Loc: Alta, UT



Hey at least the preserve gets the spelling on our passes right. A guy i met at the brauhaus showed my his national parks pass last night...

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#58097 - 06/20/11 07:35 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: RobA]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Heh... I see students every day who likely couldn't spell "annual" correctly. Who knows - some of them may get a job with the NPS.

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#58122 - 06/22/11 02:43 AM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: whatthegunks]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...

Whatthegunks:
"Of course the Preserve is adding staff at trail heads to be sure to collect funds for passes. It should be noted that MP is PRIVATE land, it was bought by the Smiley family over the course of decades and that the trust was created to protect the land not the perceived rights of one or another user group. We are incredibly lucky to have access to the Gunks and some humility about it all rather than indignant ranting seems to make sense.

Drink the Kool-Aid, Stoopid!"



Perhaps it would also make sense to know your local history as well as current events before ranting WTG. The Mohonk Trust was created essentially as a tax shelter for the Mohonk Mountain house and to think it was purely for land protection is naive. Currently the Mohonk Mountain House is about to sell 856 acres of land to the Open Space Conservancy, this land is around the old gatehouse and contains farms such as Brook farm and Pine farm, houses and other improvements. It's telling that Smiley Bros. Inc. does not sell directly to the Mohonk Preserve or donate the land to Mohonk Preserve. Why go through OSI who intends to turn it over to MP? This is a very interesting land deal that the Mohonk Neighbors have been watching closely.

Thanks,MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#58131 - 06/22/11 02:15 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Advocacy group]
SethG Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 709
Loc: NYC
I knew as soon as Welle mentioned the MPNA that the trolls would come right out.
_________________________
It's true, I have a blog. http://climbandpunishment.blogspot.com/

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#58133 - 06/22/11 05:00 PM Re: 17 DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! [Re: Advocacy group]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
The Mohonk Trust was created essentially as a tax shelter for the Mohonk Mountain house and to think it was purely for land protection is naive.


Making holding the land more affordable might well considered be a protective measure!

Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
Currently the Mohonk Mountain House is about to sell 856 acres of land to the Open Space Conservancy, this land is around the old gatehouse and contains farms such as Brook farm and Pine farm, houses and other improvements. It's telling that Smiley Bros. Inc. does not sell directly to the Mohonk Preserve or donate the land to Mohonk Preserve. Why go through OSI who intends to turn it over to MP? This is a very interesting land deal that the Mohonk Neighbors have been watching closely.


Please support you statements that is this is telling or interesting

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