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#60469 - 09/24/11 02:30 AM Re: Taxes VS preservation...have at it! [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
As far as the Zone being bad, if you have interests in preserving the land, you are wrong, ultimately it is a good sign that values are going up, as there will be more investors like you who want to preserve the land and protect it from those who want to utilize and expand it for monetary gains. Your property will be more attractive to buyers who will buy because they don't have to worry about waking up one moringing to find a golf course or a development next door.



But if that's what you want for the ridge Kent [whatever agaist the zone means], go for it. I wish you the best of luck, I feel bad, too bad you did not sell sooner.





Edited by donald perry (09/24/11 12:13 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#60470 - 09/24/11 02:36 AM Re: Taxes VS preservation...have at it! [Re: yorick]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
THE NEW ZONE

Kent, you wrote at [http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=829896&tn=60]: "The bottom line is, a few dozen landowners have been forced to bear the burden of protecting open space on the ridge." "… many of us landowners along the ridge regard the Preserve as something of an Evil Empire."

Some people invest in the stock market and some people invest in gold or silver … and some people invest in real-estate. The advantage in real-estate is, they say, it always goes up. However, real-estate has gone down, down, down over the last few years. But if you are in a special place, where other factors are at work, then there can be special advantages or disadvantages.

Kent, there is something much bigger than the Preserve, that has escaped your notice. And that is the people that are at work to make rocking popular for a living. Over the last 25 years there has literally been an explosion of interest in rock-climbing because of these people. There is rock-climbing in gyms, there is rock-climbing on cruise ships, and there is even rock-climbing walls in day camps, there is rock-climbing everywhere!

The reason that there are new zoning laws on the ridge is ultimately because of the commercialization of rock-climbing. And the zone has to do with property value going up in a specific way where the value is seen as invaluable. You made a good decision when you bought Bayards and saw your property values go up, but you made a bad decision when you saw the expansion of interest in preserved lands and you decided to hold on and wait to see what would happen. What you did is the equivalent to stockholders who don't carefully do their homework. A good stock investor reads the papers as well as other journals, and in this way he can forecast his stock. You obviously did not do your homework. What you may have done was you decided to make these stocks of somewhat of a personal interest. This is the biggest of mistakes anyone can make who deals with investments! You don't get attached to the deal. And when you play you have to have a good poker face.

Ultimately people have to decide in advance whether they want to hold on to a property because it is an investment or because they love their purchase and want to preserve it. You cannot choose both. So you made a mistake, you held on to the wrong piece of property, and you have only yourself to blame for this. So now you have two choices. The first is you can get out now, and get what you can for your investment, or you can hold on to your investment and hope that things change.

But if you think that this trend toward preservation is going to change, that you and those like you will be able to build on the ridge, you're not reading the paper, you're not reading the journals, you're not in touch with your investment. Then you are doing, all you are doing, is demonstrating a perfect example of someone who does not know what to do with an investment. Talk to some people who deal with investments for a living and get their opinion, you are wasting your investment and doing more harm than good by everything you have done so far.

But old habits die hard. People don't change, and worse, people don't take advice from their "adversaries". People are not open minded and often find it impossible to do what makes sense, even when the right choice is as plain as the nose on their face. They let their emotions get the better of them and become irrational rather than allow themselves to see things from a neutral perspective.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#60475 - 09/24/11 12:37 PM Re: Taxes VS preservation...have at it! [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
Exsactly what the new zoning laws mean, you never spell it out. In one place you say there are too many pages to comment. You have to be spicific if you want people to understand what you are doing here. But rather then come out with the facts we have guessing games, no one knows for sure what you are talking about. Lack of clarity does not give you more to complain about, it gives you less.

I can tell that whatever the Zone means it is there for everone. I know damn sure my property is devaluated whenever anyone builds. I have enough problems without having to worry about my neighbor cutting down trees and creating more traffic so people can see into my property.

Today people buy here for differnt reasons, times are a changing. Today its all about the ridge. Keeping up with the times is part of being a good invester. If you wake up one moring and suprise!, there is a golf course, or you wake up one moring and suprise!, you cannot build, ultamatly it is because you have not done your homework, you have not been a good steward to your investments. You have only yourself to blame in this, you need to own up to that Kent and stop blaming us and start dealing with these things in a reasonable manner for your own sake.


Edited by donald perry (09/24/11 12:51 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#60487 - 09/26/11 01:05 AM Re: Taxes VS preservation...have at it! [Re: yorick]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
I apologize Kent for saying that you do not spell things out.

I see here at http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=2117245;page=8;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25; in answer to ""If I may ask, how much devaluation are we talking here?"
" you say "It's hard to say. The law is complicated and the land highly variable. A rough ballpark average is 50%. The upthread fantasies of how the land hasn''t lost any value are just that. For example, your valuation included valuing 11 acres of unbuildable land at $475k, or $43k an acre. Land here that's unbuildable either becasue of topographjy or zoning is likely worth more like $3k an acre. If land here could be valued at $43k an acre for for the purposes of donation or sale of development rights in a conservation easement, virtually every ;landowner in Gardiner would move to donate or sell there land immediately. It's not worth that though. "

You also write: "The town, who wants to either buy the land themselves, or have the Preserve or some other organization buy it, used their regulatory authority to devalue the land so it would be cheaper for them to acquire. It's coercion plain and simple. "



FROM DONALD

Maybe the town wants to build a visitor center and does not have enough money to do it? It seems to me that purchasing highly desired property is a big mistake. There are just some things that are hard to hold on to without a lot of fighting and legal fees. There is an old saying and a song that comes to mind that goes something like this: "If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life Never make a pretty women your wife.".

Originally Posted By: Kid Creole And The Coconuts - If You Want To Be Happy
If you want to be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a pretty woman your wife
so for my personal point of view
Get an ugly girl to marry you (repeat)

A pretty woman makes her husband look small
And very often causes his downfall
As soon as he marries her then she starts
Doing the things that will break his heart
But if you make an ugly woman your wife
Then you will be happy for the rest of your life
An ugly woman cooks meals on time
She'll always give you peace of mind

CHORUS
If you want to be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a pretty woman your wife
So for my personal point of view
Get an ugly girl to marry you (repeat)

So if your friends say you have no taste
Go ahead and marry anyway
Though her face is ugly her eyes don't match
Take it from me she's a better catch.


My dad bought property in Waterford, Connecticut on the shore, and there is a right of way to get to it. The right of way has been needing legal work, and has yet to be fully defined. In the mean time they built a power plant at the mouth of the bay. And after that building a road over wet lands has become an expensive issue. Now it's worth piratically nothing. Whose fault is that? I believe its my Dad's mistake for the following reasons.

1. Should have resolved the right of way on paper before he bought it.

2. Should never have bought property before he was ready to build on it.

3. Should have been paying attention to conservation issues in relation to his wet lands.

4. After he built he should have been watching those Nukes and kept up with town issues and sold before they where sure they were going to build.

I also have some potential legal problems from people who need to pay me for different reasons. However, I have come to the conclusion that my time is better spent on making money and staying out of court. I have decided to set my emotions aside and do what someone else would suggest if they were not emotionally involved. I am not going to be a crusader in these things, it's simply not worth my time.








Edited by donald perry (09/26/11 01:32 AM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#60488 - 09/26/11 01:43 AM Re: Taxes VS preservation...have at it! [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
http://www.townofgardiner.org/uploads/Gardiner%20Zon%20most%20recent.pdf

TOWN OF GARDINER ZONING LAW TOWN OF GARDINER, NEW YORK

This Zoning Law enables Gardiner to protect the diverse character of the Town while also giving landowners a range of options and choices for the use, development, and conservation of their land. It is designed to strike a balance between achieving the community's goals as expressed in the Town's Comprehensive Plan and protecting the property interests of landowners, providing a development approval process that is predictable, efficient and fair. ... For any large-scale development (a large business or a development of several homes) it is also a good idea to consult the Town's Comprehensive Plan to understand how to make a proposed development it within the Town's vision of its future.

FROM DONALD

It sounds to me like they want to keep Gardiner the way it is as well as make it better for everyone who lives in the town. Today: My Dad has a nuke in his backyard and trouble crossing wet lands, you have trouble building on the ridge. The only differance between you two is my Dad is not blaming other people for his mistakes. But maybe now with the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster there is a chance.







Edited by donald perry (09/27/11 02:24 AM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#60491 - 09/26/11 02:09 PM Re: Taxes VS preservation...have at it! [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
I am not sure if stopping me personally from crossing on the same trail I have crossed on for so many years and every year is legal. I don't think it is. And I will call the Gardner Police and my attorney before I use that same old trail to know what my legal rights are. I will also and consult with the town records and deeds, as I have before. I don't want to do anything illegal or unethical. Everyone else can go around, and I am sure they may, you admit that they may not when you say they don't respect no trespassing
signs, but I'm getting old and I need a hip replacement. Why didn't you post this before when I was crossing over it all these years? There was never any sign there before. And if I don't keep crossing over, I give up my rights, then I have to go around for sure.

Originally Posted By: Trespass, Adverse Possession and Prescriptive Easements

From http://www.moeland.com/adverse.htm
Many landowners are surprised to learn that under certain circumstances, a trespasser can come onto land, occupy it and gain legal ownership of it. The trespasser may acquire a few feet of property or whole acres in this way. If someone is using your property, even a small strip on the edge, you should be alert to the risk. A trespasser may also gain a legal right to use part of someone else's property; this is called a prescriptive easement. (See "Easements," below.) The legal doctrine that allows trespassers to become owners is called "adverse possession." Although the name sounds nasty (and the results can be), the trespasser is not necessarily an intentional evildoer--far from it.


Furthermore, if you and your neighbors are having so much trouble with the town of Gardenier, why don't you consult with a lawyer and form a tax exempt organization so you will not have to pay tax? However I think you would have to come to some agreements off paper as well, you would have to know you could trust each other. From there you could potentially generate income in the very same way that the MP does. And if you could find some loophole to sell it all back to yourselves what would stop you?


Edited by donald perry (09/26/11 02:37 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

Top
#60492 - 09/26/11 04:40 PM Re: Taxes VS preservation...have at it! [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
Kent, there is a saying that says "You have to pick your enemies wisely". But you are at war with all of God's creation, and you are trying to get other people to fight for you. You have increased your numbers. But you cannot fight city hall, donald perry, the Preserve, established laws and ethics, the climbing community, hikers, nature lovers, local and world trends and time itself! There is a saying that says "You have to pick your enemies wisely". What is it exactly that you are trying to accomplish other than getting my attention?



Yet, a blade of wheat will bend with the wind, but the tare is broken off because it will not bend.


Edited by donald perry (09/27/11 03:21 AM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#60493 - 09/26/11 05:19 PM Re: Taxes VS preservation...have at it! [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
Before Y2K I stocked up. I read that power could go out for months. So I decided I would be self sufficient. What I learned was is that it is impossible to be self sufficient. Today we live in a world where we are all dependent on each other. It seems like you have reached the point where Gardenier needs your property. I wish you the best in that regard, and if there was something that I could do to help you pay less taxes now that your property has been devaluated, as you say, I would do what I could to help. What about getting a petition together that agrees that ridge properties should now have to pay less taxes? But doesn't the Zone say it has only to do with major develpoment below the actual ridge?






Edited by donald perry (09/27/11 02:59 AM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

Top
#60495 - 09/26/11 08:51 PM Re: Taxes VS preservation...have at it! [Re: donald perry]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Donald is now clearly talking to himself

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#60497 - 09/26/11 11:06 PM Re: Taxes VS preservation...have at it! [Re: RangerRob]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
moved







Edited by donald perry (09/27/11 03:55 AM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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