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#58239 - 06/27/11 01:04 PM Re: Taxes VS preservation...have at it! [Re: RangerRob]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
Rationalizations for the Mohonk Preserve's tax exempt status have been:

From Ian: MP members spend money here.
Quote:
As a local homeowner who comes to enjoy the parks and the Preserve, I directly employ a number of local people and a further good number of my disposable $ end up in local hands.

Everyone who lives here spends money here too. MP member expenditures are no more exalted than anyone else's.

From Oen: MP doesn't burden the local community
Quote:
There are no children to educate and, I'd guess, almost no local effort at policing and infrastructure maintenance in these places.

Wouldn't it be nice if we each paid taxes in accordance with the government services we used? It doesn't work that way. We all shoulder the burden, and generally speaking, those of us more able shoulder more. Not so the MP. And climbers, as a group, use considerable town services. Some 35 Mohonk Preserve calls a year come into the Gardiner fire department.

From Rick:Tax exempt status is legally enacted by elected representatives and therefore ok.
Quote:
Today's taxpayers have had little to say about how tax breaks were awarded to non-profits. However, over the decades their elected officials have had much to do with it at all levels. As long as the tax law allows these exemptions, we should expect the non-profits to take advantage of these lawful breaks.

One is left wondering how you feel about huge taxpayer funded government subsidies to big oil companies. In both instances politically influential wealthy corporations have used their influence to further their interests at the expense of others less well off.

From Ian: Locals should recognize they are blessed by our dirtbag presense.
Quote:
Well, a little lazy Google shows that tourism contributes >$400M to the overall economy in Ulster county, or roughly 8-10% of the total economic activity for the area. This equates to over $2K for every Ulster county resident. That's a lot of dirtbag dollars.

Too funny. The MP's own study concludes the MP, Sam's Point, and Minnewaska combined economic contribution is just $12M or something like 0.3% of the overall economy in Ulster County. Generously speaking, the MP generates perhaps half of that or 0.15%.

Another theme common to many of the posts supporting tax exempt MP status is open space is worth the loss of tax revenue. This is, of course, easy to say when it's not your money. More important though, other means of maintaining open space on the ridge also maintain a tax revenue stream for towns. Minnewaska State Park is a good example.

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#58246 - 06/27/11 03:27 PM Re: Taxes VS preservation...have at it! [Re: Kent]
ianmanger Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
Originally Posted By: Kent
Rationalizations for the Mohonk Preserve's tax exempt status have been:

Quote:

Everyone who lives here spends money here too. MP member expenditures are no more exalted than anyone else's.


Exalted? What?

You have to be kidding. We're talking about money that comes in that wouldn't come in otherwise. This is extra. To the tune of $400M for the whole of the county and or the $12M modeled by the Preserve itself as you point out. Seems like a deal to me.


Quote:

From Ian: Locals should recognize they are blessed by our dirtbag presense. [quote]
Too funny. The MP's own study concludes the MP, Sam's Point, and Minnewaska combined economic contribution is just $12M or something like 0.3% of the overall economy in Ulster County. Generously speaking, the MP generates perhaps half of that or 0.15%.


Kent, seriously? OK, so the models say $12M. Works for me. Now, how much tax is lost?

Quote:

Another theme common to many of the posts supporting tax exempt MP status is open space is worth the loss of tax revenue. This is, of course, easy to say when it's not your money.


So my taxes to the town of Rochester go where exactly?

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#58263 - 06/27/11 08:06 PM Re: Taxes VS preservation...have at it! [Re: Kent]
Rickster Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 845
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Originally Posted By: Kent


From Rick:Tax exempt status is legally enacted by elected representatives and therefore ok.
Quote:
Today's taxpayers have had little to say about how tax breaks were awarded to non-profits. However, over the decades their elected officials have had much to do with it at all levels. As long as the tax law allows these exemptions, we should expect the non-profits to take advantage of these lawful breaks.

One is left wondering how you feel about huge taxpayer funded government subsidies to big oil companies. In both instances politically influential wealthy corporations have used their influence to further their interests at the expense of others less well off.

Kent, once again you spin. Quote me when you feel so inclined, but please, don't miss quote me. At no point in my post have I said "Tax exempt status is legally enacted by elected representatives and therefore ok." Those are your words, not mine. If your words express how you understood my post, then read the post again, until you understand what it is that I did write.

Additionally, I would figure that you may be the only one who is left wondering how I feel about huge taxpayer funded government subsidies to big oil companies. Keep wondering.

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#58264 - 06/27/11 09:51 PM Re: Taxes VS preservation...have at it! [Re: Rickster]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
Some 35 Mohonk Preserve calls a year come into the Gardiner fire department.

Speaking as one of those calls: I "bought" two flights from a Gardiner-based heli rescue company. To a tune > $48,000.00 (I should be clear that my health insurance paid those costs).

If it weren't for the MP drawing climbers to the area, that $$ wouldn't have been earned in Gardiner.

And if it weren't for the steady need for such services in Gardiner, they wouldn't be there at all. The fire department in Gardiner might be one truck at the town hall.

One could observe that, aside from the $48,000.00 spent, Gardiner also benefits from beefed-up fire departments and rescue services, because of the MP.

And yet I'm sure some will see an entitled dirtbag taking advantage of town services without any benefit or $$ going to Gardiner. Somehow.

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#58265 - 06/27/11 09:54 PM Re: Taxes VS preservation...have at it! [Re: Julie]
Rickster Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 845
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
I am glad to see you are up and kicking. Welcome back.

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#58273 - 06/28/11 02:59 AM Re: Taxes VS preservation...have at it! [Re: Rickster]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Julie I seriousl doubt the medical flight is Gardiner based...unless I have been blind the last 12 years. The Gardiner Fire Department only follows protocols set by Ulster County 911 when they have injuries sustained from a fall of a certain height. Those flight services are usually based out of Westchester. I can asuure you that neither the Town or the fire department saw a dime of that money.

I have sympathy for your accident and your flight bill, really I do. Attacking the Gardiner Fire Department for your medical and resuce bill is repulsive however. They have done the climbing community more service than any other agency I can think of...including the Mohonk Preserve. Maybe you should work to change the protocol instead of criticizing the people who came to your rescue.

No one forces us to climb cliffs and put our lives at risk. We assume every outcome of that activity when we choose to undertake it, including the medical flight that the fire department is legally bound to call for in that instance.

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#58274 - 06/28/11 03:05 AM Re: Taxes VS preservation...have at it! [Re: RangerRob]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Furthermore, what has the climbing community ever done for the Gardiner Fire Department? They got a plaque one year at the Filmfest. Wonderful. When was the last time the community did anything collectively to benefit the fire department in a meaningful way? The only instance I know of was when I donated the $250 bucks I made giving a slide show at Rock and Snow to them. Anyone else? Anyone ever give a donation after an incident?

I should go to bed before I get pissed and write something I really shouldn't.


Edited by RangerRob (06/28/11 03:06 AM)

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#58284 - 06/28/11 10:16 AM Re: Taxes VS preservation...have at it! [Re: RangerRob]
SethG Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 709
Loc: NYC
Rob, I think you misunderstand Julie. I think the point she's making is that Kent fails to take account of numerous ways the Preserve contributes to the local economy.

Her specific example-- that climber accidents bring rescue revenue-- is (I'm guessing) meant to be only half-serious. But while I'm only half-sure that she's half-serious, I am totally sure that she's not criticizing rescue personnel or complaining about the size of the bill.
_________________________
It's true, I have a blog. http://climbandpunishment.blogspot.com/

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#58290 - 06/28/11 12:01 PM Re: Taxes VS preservation...have at it! [Re: Julie]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: Julie
Some 35 Mohonk Preserve calls a year come into the Gardiner fire department.

Speaking as one of those calls: I "bought" two flights from a Gardiner-based heli rescue company. To a tune > $48,000.00 (I should be clear that my health insurance paid those costs).

If it weren't for the MP drawing climbers to the area, that $$ wouldn't have been earned in Gardiner.

And if it weren't for the steady need for such services in Gardiner, they wouldn't be there at all. The fire department in Gardiner might be one truck at the town hall.

One could observe that, aside from the $48,000.00 spent, Gardiner also benefits from beefed-up fire departments and rescue services, because of the MP.

And yet I'm sure some will see an entitled dirtbag taking advantage of town services without any benefit or $$ going to Gardiner. Somehow.



Julie,

Try going to one of the various local town board meetings before you spay online about what local municipalities have and who contributes $$ to them. I don't know about the dirtbag part but you really do come off as quite entitled.

Thanks, MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#58297 - 06/28/11 12:45 PM Re: Taxes VS preservation...have at it! [Re: Advocacy group]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
I may have been a little harsh in my response, and for that I am sorry, but at the very least her post seemed as if she had no idea where her insurance money went, and who benefited. She seemed to imply that the fire department makes out like a fat rat because of climbers, when in fact those rescue calls cost the fire department money. Money that never comes back to them, unless the rescuee decides to be a little philanthropic.

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