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#58452 - 07/02/11 02:35 AM confidence routes
worthrussell Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/11/10
Posts: 90
Loc: NY, Brooklyn
So im a relative noob to climbing but i've been putting in alot of days at the gunks this season. I've onsighted all of the three and two star gray dick's 5.7s and below at the trapps with the exception of cck and hans puss. I just started breaking into the 8s with a lead on city lights and the following day onsighted ants line. I ended up hang dogging the crux on ants due to the fact that i spent too much time placing perfect gear the whole way up. I tr'd it later with no issues. If you were me and wanted to become a solid 9 leader at the gunks b4 season's end what would you do? easier grade climbing with runout or tr some tough stuff to hone my climbing? Im not caught up in the grade i just love the way the 9s in the gunks look. If i could lead solid 9 i could stay busy in the trapps for quite some time. Any feedback or route suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

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#58466 - 07/02/11 01:46 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: worthrussell]
Rickster Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 853
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Seems like you are on your way up through the grades. Should you want to commit to leading 5.9, check this thread. gunks.com/ubbthreads7/ubbthreads.php/topics/47995/Breaking_into_5_9_short_cruxes#Post47995I
Hone your skills and endurance. For a "relative noob" you're doing all right. RC

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#58467 - 07/02/11 04:28 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: Rickster]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Russell, as you step up into 8+ and 5.9 you star having to decide which is safer....hanging out to put gear in or going for it. No one can answer that for you except you, and the answer will be different in each scenario. There are lots of factors to weigh in that one half second decision. the only way to be able to make those split second decisions correctly is to have lots of time doing it.

Some people it comes naturally to. Most people have to struggle and learn. This is especially true at the Gunks where you need to feel comfy climbing above what most other climbers consider very small gear.

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#58474 - 07/03/11 02:50 AM Re: confidence routes [Re: RangerRob]
yorick Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: hamlet\'s hand
Build a pyramid. Do every 8 and 8 + you can find, then start in on the 9 - before tackling 9s like Ant's Line. Get confident with your wire placements and equalizing pieces. Take Stannard's dictum to heart - three pieces between you and the business. Practice downclimbing. Building a solid base at each sub-grade, the slight increase in difficulty as you move up won't feel like a big deal.

Save Modern Times 'til you're cracking 10s.

Take your time.
_________________________
Shongum ain\'t Indian,
it\'s Shawank-unk.

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#58478 - 07/03/11 11:14 AM Re: confidence routes [Re: yorick]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5979
Loc: 212 land
I agree generally with Yorick's advice. Unless one shows remarkable talent and self-confidence, one winds up doing quite a bit of downclimbing -- no use practising it.
_________________________

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#58479 - 07/03/11 01:35 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: oenophore]
Rickster Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 853
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Originally Posted By: oenophore
I agree generally with Yorick's advice. Unless one shows remarkable talent and self-confidence, one winds up doing quite a bit of downclimbing -- no use practising it.


On the other hand, and this goes back to old school trad ethics, many climbers today climbing at or above their limits, quite commonly will hang dog, or take repeated falls rather than "waste" the energy of down climbing. Personally, I was a cautious climber who'd rather down climb than pop and hang dogging was reason for a slap up side the head.

Down climbing is a valuable skill on the crag and oh so necessary in the mountains and has saved my bacon a few times. Doing it for the sake of practice isn't too bad an idea.

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#58480 - 07/03/11 04:01 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: oenophore]
yorick Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: hamlet\'s hand
Originally Posted By: oenophore
Unless one shows remarkable talent and self-confidence, one winds up doing quite a bit of downclimbing -- no use practising it.


Downclimbing uses opposing muscles and teaches you to eyeball your foot placements. I always ran a complimentary lap downclimbing whatever I TRd.
_________________________
Shongum ain\'t Indian,
it\'s Shawank-unk.

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#58481 - 07/03/11 05:40 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: yorick]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5979
Loc: 212 land
What I meant here is that much like Rickster, I did lots of downclimbing when I wasn't certain of initial success. I did that so much, I got good at it and didn't need to practice it for its own sake and I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that others do the same. But if one would rather hangdog than downclimb, that's a different thing. Downclimbing skill is quite important.
_________________________

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#58484 - 07/03/11 07:14 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: oenophore]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
I have to take issue to the "hangdogging deserves a slap upside the head" business. I thoroughly support anyones endeavor to do a route safely, and doing it safely means hanging at a piece instead of falling, then who is anyone to criticize that? Would you rather people commit to every move while on lead and damn the consequences? Personally, if I absolutely no I don't have the juice to make it ot the next stance, and I don't have the juice to downclimb, then I am going to hang. I don't care what anyone thinks of my style.

I would rather see that than people who don't know what they are doing gettign way over their heads and causing accidents. I also don't buy into the notion that one must be able to lead it without hanging before one gets on it. That is a BIG FAT rule, and I don't like following anyones rule when I climb except my own. telling people they have no business on a route if they are hanging it is pretty freaking elitist.

Hang all you want. Shit, put extra gear in while you hang! Just be honest about how you climbed it and I will respect you!

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#58485 - 07/03/11 08:08 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: RangerRob]
Rickster Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 853
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
RR, My apologies, I wasn't clear enough in my post regarding the "slap up side the head" That referred to my hand slapping me upside the head.

Rereading my post, I don't see where I wrote, that "people have no business on a route if they are hanging". Nor did oenophore in his followup post. I agree, that would be pretty elitist.

And, no I would not recommend people "commit to every move while on lead and damn the consequences." It wasn't my climbing style and I wouldn't expect it of others. However, I would have been a more successful climber had I been bolder and gone for it more often.

I did begin my post referencing "old school trad ethics" and what "personal" choices I made regarding my climbing style. So, let me be more clear, I've hung on the rope exactly for the reasons you cite. It wasn't my plan upon leaving the ground however, but was occasionally necessary. Those events were most often followed by lowering off and re-climbing to the highpoint and hopefully, beyond. Again, more personal choices.

By the tone of your post, I'll presume you've had this discussion before and I agree that folks should make their own personal choices regarding climbing style.

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