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#58503 - 07/04/11 01:21 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: rg@ofmc]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Sunburst Arete is fabulous, but steep and wandery a little at least in the first pitch. I found it to be one of those headgames where you just have to climb up into the next move, being confident that the next 5.8 hold will appear as you do.

Rich, I hear you about throwing out the "elitist" word. But I can still make my point without using that word. I still stand by what I said. Of course we all respect the way things were, and had to be done back in the day. But I think people climb for all sorts of different reasons, and to assume that style should does matter to everyone....I just feels like putting your expectations on others.

I'm not talking to or about anyone in particular here, just the notions that are brought up. Style DOES matter to me, but that style is based upon my needs, and my goals. My climbing style is about being honest with yourrself and others about your climbing, respecting the rock, or the ice, or the mountain, respecting the environment and not bringing it down to your level. This style enables me to get the experience I want to get. I tend to climb with people who share my ideas about style and climbing ethics.

Anyway, it's all good. I'm sorry about the E word. Sorry I misread your post Rickster, I've been doin gthat a lot lately. I need to be a little warmer and fuzzier.

Back to confidence routes. I've always felt that No Glow is a nice 5.9 to feel confident on. Sort of runout 5.6ish climbin gomn the first pitch...just to warm your psyche up. The second pitch has cool climbing gup to the crux, with a good pin right over the crux, and some challenging moves right after it. Sort of gets you into the mind frame of pulling harder moves over your gear.

RR

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#58508 - 07/04/11 04:45 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: RangerRob]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Rob, we've been agreeing to disagree about these issues for some time now. About one thing I don't think anyone can disagree: the entire enterprise of climbing is based on voluntary restraint. Climbers do not allow themselves all the means that are available.

I believe you would say that the choice of means and methods, as long as it does not alter the environment, is a totally individual matter, and the only responsibility an individual has to the community is to be honest about how they succeeded. That's hard to argue with, and is, I think, quintessentially American in its rejection of the role tradition and the dismissal of any role for community opinion.

If we are speaking of constitutional rights, there can be no question that you are correct. But I think the role of tradition in trad climbing has been and is absolutely critical---remember what "trad" is a contraction of? Tradition, even when it is under fire, as it always will be, still guides what the community recognizes as a valid achievement, even as the community fights to modify the restraints tradition exhorts.

Does this mean that I, for example, am imposing my expectations on others as you say? Well, yes, it does. Not my personal expectations, but the expectations of the community that basically invented what is now called trad climbing in this country. There is something called trad climbing, and climbers aren't doing it if they are dogging their way up routes.

Do climbers have some kind of "right" to dog their way up routes? Of course. Should they be honest about their methods? Ideally, yes. Are they trad climbers? Not if they climb this way regularly, and this is not just me talking. They haven't embraced the traditions that define what they claim to be doing, and so they aren't doing it.

A typical response to this is "f#ck off a##hole, I don't give a damn what you think or say." (I thought I'd get that in right away because it is bound to show up anyway.) If I thought everyone was like this, I'd probably just shut up about it all, but in fact I think there are plenty of people who really do care and who could use, from time to time, a little support for their attempt to resist the redefinition of trad climbing as nothing more than sport climbing on gear.

Happy Independence day folks.

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#58512 - 07/04/11 07:50 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: rg@ofmc]
artisan Offline
stranger

Registered: 03/22/09
Posts: 23
"f#ck off a##hole" would be one response, although that "typical" line of attack has been deftly defended.

alternatively, one might read these pages and pages of ethical thuggery and think "there goes that curmudgeonly old nerd again, spraying endlessly about the general failings of modern climbers who don't respect or recognize a time when men were men and we down climbed our first ascents with the rope in our teeth."

because really your biggest beef seems to be that people call themselves trad climbers, and really, they have NO RIGHT TO. which sounds suspiciously like sport climbers arguing over claiming a red point or a pink point or a dead point offsight flash.

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#58513 - 07/04/11 08:21 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: artisan]
curmudgeon Online   content
addict

Registered: 10/27/10
Posts: 466


Edited by curmudgeon (07/05/11 11:45 AM)

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#58515 - 07/04/11 10:57 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: artisan]
Coppertone Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Newtown, CT
Originally Posted By: artisan
"f#ck off a##hole" would be one response, although that "typical" line of attack has been deftly defended.

alternatively, one might read these pages and pages of ethical thuggery and think "there goes that curmudgeonly old nerd again, spraying endlessly about the general failings of modern climbers who don't respect or recognize a time when men were men and we down climbed our first ascents with the rope in our teeth."

because really your biggest beef seems to be that people call themselves trad climbers, and really, they have NO RIGHT TO. which sounds suspiciously like sport climbers arguing over claiming a red point or a pink point or a dead point offsight flash.


Not sure what you have been reading or who pissed your cornflakes, but this has been a pretty civil discussion about helping a fairly new leader safely get to what are his current goals. I don't see anyone saying that someone doesn't have a right to call themselves a trad climber, but more along the lines of being honest with yourself and how to safely achieve higher levels of leading and there are differing opinions on this. Some things pointed out such as onsighting a lead with a bunch of hangs is not an attack, but a reality check. Being able to truly onsight a climb such as Ants Line should come with relative ease before you consider tackling 5.9's. This is not an attack on someones worthiness of being called a trad climber.

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#58516 - 07/05/11 12:23 AM Re: confidence routes [Re: Coppertone]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Originally Posted By: Coppertone
Being able to truly onsight a climb such as Ants Line should come with relative ease before you consider tackling 5.9's.


Huh?

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#58517 - 07/05/11 12:53 AM Re: confidence routes [Re: Mike Rawdon]
worthrussell Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/11/10
Posts: 90
Loc: NY, Brooklyn
Thanks for the advice all. My personal style is to avoid hanging if possible. I agree with the down climbing being a good skill and have used it often on runout routes/ wet routes in both the gunks and the adks. I think a problem with these forums is that there is a range of differing opinions when it comes to leading and people seem to get pissed when opposing opinions come to light. I agree that becoming a 5.8 leader is a good goal but isnt it true that falling becomes part of the game as one progresses. I would assume the possibility of blowing on 5.11 is much higher than on a 5.9 and at some point you gotta get used to falling. I also am confused how my post about taking a hang on my first 5.9 lead becomes a bunch of hangs by the final post. Has ant's line been downgraded? The previous routesmentioned in this thread in the 5.8 realm have been noted in my guide book and will be ticked off 1 by 1. thanks for the suggestions. Also if anyone is looking for a partner friday and doesn't mind being the rope gun for my novice ass it would be much appreciated

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#58518 - 07/05/11 02:19 AM Re: confidence routes [Re: artisan]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Originally Posted By: artisan
"f#ck off a##hole" would be one response, although that "typical" line of attack has been deftly defended.

Spoken like a gentleman...

...who rather quickly withdraws from the scene:

Originally Posted By: artisan
...alternatively, one might read these pages and pages of ethical thuggery...

Ethical thuggery? What a weird juxtaposition of terms. Please note that nowhere did I ever use the term ethics. We are speaking of "rules of the game," not anything with ethical content.

Originally Posted By: artisan
...and think "there goes that curmudgeonly old nerd again, spraying endlessly about the general failings of modern climbers who don't respect or recognize a time when men were men and we down climbed our first ascents with the rope in our teeth."

Yeah, I knew the old guy ad hominem attack was coming too. In addition to avoiding the actual issues and hoping no one notices, it wanders further from reality by introducing points I never made and have no interest in, such as whether or not anyone respects the feats of days gone by.

There are plenty of young climbers who also believe that trad is actually short for something---its not an old guy thing.

Originally Posted By: artisan
...because really your biggest beef seems to be that people call themselves trad climbers, and really, they have NO RIGHT TO.

I guess I did word it that way. I should have said that some people indulge in a form of climbing they call trad, but it isn't.

Originally Posted By: artisan
...which sounds suspiciously like sport climbers arguing over claiming a red point or a pink point or a dead point offsight flash.

Thanks for that. It shows that young modern climbers care just as passionately about the style of their ascents as the nerdy old farts you're trying to dismiss with a combination of predictable insults and facile insinuations about motives. And this passion about style is not a surprise, because, as I said in the beginning, at the very heart of climbing lies the essential concept of voluntary restraint.

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#58519 - 07/05/11 03:44 AM Re: confidence routes [Re: rg@ofmc]
Rickster Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Worthwhile,
Yes, to climbers of a certain age, Drunkards was a 5.7, No Glow was a 5.8 and Ant's Line was a 5.9. Like many climbs over the years, ratings have been adjusted either up or down.

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#58524 - 07/05/11 02:08 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: Rickster]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Rich I think we agree maybe a little more than you may think. I personally try to live up to the style in which routes were done. I know my skills well enough now to know when I should go for it and risk the fall, or downclimb. I admit, I have dogged my way up routes in the past. It's not a style I aspire to. I feel much better about myself having taken a big fall from a crux, or downclimbing a bunch, than getting gear in and yelling TAKE! I like to consider myself a traditional climber in some sense.

But I don't prescribe to the notion that other people who climb on gear routes also hold this same aspiration. If some 5.8 climber wants to lead Doubleissima and hang on every single piece he or she places, but has fun doing it and just wants to enjoy the feel of the rock and the position, then who am I, or you, to tell them they shouldn't be doing that?

I see your point though, in that there should be a collective sense of style in a traditional climbing scene. I get that totally.

Worth...pm me. I may be able to get out Friday afternoon and evening. have to check with the boss first. Maybe we'll go do No Glow.

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