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#58539 - 07/05/11 07:25 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: tradjunkie]
jakedatc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
Originally Posted By: tradjunkie
I have yet to hangdog all the 2 and 3 star 5.7s in the Gunks, so I think I'm falling behind.


you should do laps on High E until you have a screaming epic. then you will be ready to tackle 5.7 hangdogs. good luck!

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#58540 - 07/05/11 10:21 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: tradjunkie]
worthrussell Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/11/10
Posts: 90
Loc: NY, Brooklyn
GO

I could define onsight for you and if I was a complete moron I could just google it or break out my AMA learning basic skills red and white book and type the defintion in word for word. It's an internet forum take my word or don't it doesn't t really matter what you believe my climbing level to be. Are you a certified guide? Would you like to take me out and assess my skill level? I'm not sure what confuses you GO, please define

Thanks

Worth

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#58541 - 07/05/11 10:31 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: worthrussell]
jakedatc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
Originally Posted By: worthrussell
GO

I could define onsight for you and if I was a complete moron I could just google it or break out my AMA learning basic skills red and white book and type the defintion in word for word. It's an internet forum take my word or don't it doesn't t really matter what you believe my climbing level to be. Are you a certified guide? Would you like to take me out and assess my skill level? I'm not sure what confuses you GO, please define

Thanks

Worth


Worth, what he is getting at is that Onsight means first try, little to no beta, no falls or hangs. since you hung, by definition, you did not onsight the route.

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#58548 - 07/05/11 11:44 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: worthrussell]
tradjunkie Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 365
Action: search "onsight" definition on google.com, top 5 search results:

RESULT 1: WIKIPEDIA
Definition for onsight:
Chesapeake Utilities Corporation is a publicly held American energy services company focusing on distribution of natural gas and propane in the Delaware, Maryland and Florida. The corporate headquarters are located in Dover, Delaware...
[librarian's note for the confused: Onsight Energy, LLC is a subsidiary of Chesapeake]

RESULT 2: WORDNIK:
Sorry, no definitions found.

Examples
"And there are already onsight infant and toddler programs for people who are very busy." CNN Transcript - Special Event: Millennium 2000: Tomorrow's Children - January 3, 2000

"We also suggest closed loop systems and onsight regulatory inspection for each well as it is being cemented." Natural Gas Drilling Threatens Trout in Pennsylvania (and Other Appalachian States)

"It can be an "onsight" event or an event held at the location of the organization co-sponsoring." Getting people to show at author events, the music way - The Book Publicity Blog

....

RESULT 3: REVERSO DICTIONARY
No exact match found for your search 'onsight'.
Suggests: "on side"
adj
adv (Football, hockey, etc.) (of a player) in a legal position, as when behind the ball or with a required number of opponents between oneself and the opposing team's goal line

RESULT 4: MERRIAM-WEBSTER
1sight noun \&#712;s&#299;t\


Definition of SIGHT

1
: something that is seen : spectacle
2
a : a thing regarded as worth seeing —usually used in plural <the sights of the city>
b : something ludicrous or disorderly in appearance <you look a sight>
3
a chiefly dialect : a great number or quantity........

RESULT 5: ROCKCLIMBING.COM
Look, it just ain't that complicated.
The term 'onsight' - like so many other climbing terms - relates back to, and has its foundation in, doing FAs. It applied to doing an FA on the first attempt, i.e. with no prior knowledge of any kind. That's 'onsight' in its purest form. Onsight beyond that is while you may not have the FA, you climbed it without prior knowledge. Again, in the purest form possible, that would be you arrived at a crag, eyeballed the lines, jumped on one and managed to ascend it [clean] on the first attempt....

Past that everything essentially sullies the 'quality' or 'purity' of an onsight:

Know it's been climbed? Ding.
Know the grade? Ding.
Know the route-finding details? Ding.
Know the pro required? Ding, ding.
Know beta on any of the moves? Ding, ding, ding.
All the holds are perma-chalked? Ding, ding, ding, ding.

Have all or most of those in place and the term is reduced to posing social spray with little relevance to the original context and meaning.

Which tends to mean that you are not going to get a very pure "sport" onsight ever -- the line of bolts basically tells you both "it has been climbed" and "the route finding details"......

/truncate: [predictable angels-on-pinheads argument over the possibility of onsighting any rock ever sullied by human fingerprint, ever outed as being climbable in human conversation or recorded media, or ......]

Research librarian's note: Results of this search gave unclear and conflicting results. However, it appears that Result 4, Definition 2(b) is the most applicable to your situation.

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#58550 - 07/06/11 12:11 AM Re: confidence routes [Re: tradjunkie]
worthrussell Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/11/10
Posts: 90
Loc: NY, Brooklyn
I see your point journeyman and TJ. I suppose i've been misinformed and what a horrible place to be so. I was under the impression that onsighting a ROUTE was to go to a climb and w/o other climbers beta and climb. If you didn't do it clean it isn't an onsight. I was unaware that knowing any one thing about the route,chalkmarks and good spots to belay, dropped the onsight . what is the proper term? Now i really do need some clarification

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#58552 - 07/06/11 01:05 AM Re: confidence routes [Re: worthrussell]
jakedatc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
I consider a guidebook description and chalk/bolts still an onsight. See where route goes.. climb route first go, no falls. That is fairly anal if you ask me.

Once you fall or get specific climbing beta ie giant jug over roof to the left onsight is gone. next clean run from the bottom is redpoint.

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#58557 - 07/06/11 03:45 AM Re: confidence routes [Re: worthrussell]
tradjunkie Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 365
Just giving you a hard time.

OK, let's make it clear.

Yes, onsighting is leading the route on your first attempt without beta, falling, or weighting the rope. By your own description, you did NOT onsight Ant's Line.

"He didn't fall? Onsight!"
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMHCegdJcro

Between your misuse of 'onsight' and your strange jump from lots of 5.7s to hanging on one 5.9 (with a single one-move-wonder 5.7 recently upgraded to 5.8-, namely City Lights, to transition), to your violent reaction at being caught out at your misuse of the word, you kind of set your self up.

By the way, there is nothing wrong with not getting the onsight. Many people would be glad to get up Ant's, period. The issue is falsely claiming an onsight.

By the way, you still seem confused. Let me highlight your original post to help remind you what does and does not constitute an onsight:

Quote:
I just started breaking into the 8s with a lead on city lights and the following day onsighted ants line. I ended up hang dogging the crux on ants due to the fact that i spent too much time placing perfect gear the whole way up.

Is it possible that perhaps what you are doing is instead misunderstanding the phrase "hang dogging?" The word "hang" is a giveaway. Note that an onsight by definition does not include any hangs. Hangdogging is pretty much as close to the exact stylistic opposite of onsight as you can get.

I won't get into the argument that there are enough stemming rests on Ant's below the crux that...oh, never mind.

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#58558 - 07/06/11 03:53 AM Re: confidence routes [Re: worthrussell]
tradjunkie Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 365
Originally Posted By: worthrussell
I see your point journeyman and TJ. I suppose i've been misinformed and what a horrible place to be so. I was under the impression that onsighting a ROUTE was to go to a climb and w/o other climbers beta and climb. If you didn't do it clean it isn't an onsight. I was unaware that knowing any one thing about the route,chalkmarks and good spots to belay, dropped the onsight . what is the proper term? Now i really do need some clarification


If you did walk up to City Lights and say "hm, that looks like the route," not watch anyone else climb it, and climb it clean with no hangs or falls, I don't think anyone* would begrudge you claiming the onsight, regardless of chalk, the obvious belay chains, reading the guidebook descriptions or whatever.

*(apart from a few deviant hair-splitters on other climbing websites)

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#58579 - 07/06/11 02:34 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: tradjunkie]
Coppertone Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Newtown, CT
Worth. I think aspiring to get better and reach higher grades are goals that most of us share. Just don't loose sight of what is front you in trying to get there. There are a whole host of great 5.8 climbs to challenge yourself with and more importantly enjoy. There are also tons of great climbs that do not get three stars that in some cases are better than the classics. When you get to be and solid 5.9 leader, and it certainly sounds like you will, you will be happy you took the time to enjoy the things that it took to get there.

After overcoming a few torn biceps operations over the past few years I have found that revisiting some of the easier climbs that I hadn't done much in the previous years has been a great experience and reaffirmed how much I love climbing, not for the sake of climbing hard and getting on the most difficult routes, but more for the whole experience.

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#58585 - 07/06/11 05:56 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: jakedatc]
stoopid Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 67
Loc: West Sand Lake, NY
Originally Posted By: jakedatc
Originally Posted By: stoopid
Worth, I'm going to miss climbing with you (eventually). As you progress (past what I'm willing and capable of climbing) you'll shed and attract new climbing buddies. It's all part of the sport I suppose. Hopefully you'll still get out for some funsie stuff from time to time, like the plans to do some TR'ing at Peterskill to help nudge our grade and skills up a few nothces... versus doing it on lead, which as has been discussed, is IMHO the dangerous way of learning to climb stronger.

BTW, good lead on Ants Line. I wasn't even willing to try the crux with the swing, and you did it with style with some decent fall potential on less than bomber gear. Anyone know what the face climbing immediately left of Ant's Line's crux goes at? It was tough, maybe as tough, but didn't have any swing on follow so I opted to do it instead.


The left face of the Ants line corner is Ents line .11 something. next face over from Ants line's corner is a .7

what swing were you taking from Ants line's crux It's basically a straight shot from the bolted anchor.


Originally Posted By: coppertone
If you are doing any move on Ants Line with less than bomber gear then you are doing something wrong. I can't think of a better protected climb. There really should not be any swing to worry about. The crux on that has endless gear just below and about the best #1 Camalot placement there is at the overhang with plenty of gear as soon as you pull up.


I wasn't the leader, but seem to recall a good nut placement through the crack system (actually fed the nut into the crack upside down), and that was about it for the start of the crux, then maybe a small cam for the second move to clear the crux. The nut was obviously fine, but the cam wasn't perfect, and if it blew you'd take a bit of a spill. It didn't seem very dangerous or I'd have had Worth downclimb or place more gear, but it did seem PG-ish despite there being plenty of features to use.

The swing was because there was the gear at the crux, then the next piece was 15 feet up and moreso left. If I blew at the crux I'd have a bit of a fast moving ride across the face. At the time it just didn't seem worth it (har har). Our third on the climb had it easy, because as you said the rope falls directly over the route from the anchor.

Ideally Worth could have placed something just above the crux to eliminate the swing, but that's part of learning to lead and protecting the follow(s). In hindsight I could have had the 3rd put me on belay using the tailing rope, but once I saw a way up to the left I traversed out and took that to the left corner of the roof. It wasn't 5.11, I think perhaps I wasn't that far left and probably just in a no-man's zone between the regular line for Ant's Line and the next route.

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