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#58452 - 07/02/11 02:35 AM confidence routes
worthrussell Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/11/10
Posts: 90
Loc: NY, Brooklyn
So im a relative noob to climbing but i've been putting in alot of days at the gunks this season. I've onsighted all of the three and two star gray dick's 5.7s and below at the trapps with the exception of cck and hans puss. I just started breaking into the 8s with a lead on city lights and the following day onsighted ants line. I ended up hang dogging the crux on ants due to the fact that i spent too much time placing perfect gear the whole way up. I tr'd it later with no issues. If you were me and wanted to become a solid 9 leader at the gunks b4 season's end what would you do? easier grade climbing with runout or tr some tough stuff to hone my climbing? Im not caught up in the grade i just love the way the 9s in the gunks look. If i could lead solid 9 i could stay busy in the trapps for quite some time. Any feedback or route suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

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#58466 - 07/02/11 01:46 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: worthrussell]
Rickster Online   content
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 853
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Seems like you are on your way up through the grades. Should you want to commit to leading 5.9, check this thread. gunks.com/ubbthreads7/ubbthreads.php/topics/47995/Breaking_into_5_9_short_cruxes#Post47995I
Hone your skills and endurance. For a "relative noob" you're doing all right. RC

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#58467 - 07/02/11 04:28 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: Rickster]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Russell, as you step up into 8+ and 5.9 you star having to decide which is safer....hanging out to put gear in or going for it. No one can answer that for you except you, and the answer will be different in each scenario. There are lots of factors to weigh in that one half second decision. the only way to be able to make those split second decisions correctly is to have lots of time doing it.

Some people it comes naturally to. Most people have to struggle and learn. This is especially true at the Gunks where you need to feel comfy climbing above what most other climbers consider very small gear.

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#58474 - 07/03/11 02:50 AM Re: confidence routes [Re: RangerRob]
yorick Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: hamlet\'s hand
Build a pyramid. Do every 8 and 8 + you can find, then start in on the 9 - before tackling 9s like Ant's Line. Get confident with your wire placements and equalizing pieces. Take Stannard's dictum to heart - three pieces between you and the business. Practice downclimbing. Building a solid base at each sub-grade, the slight increase in difficulty as you move up won't feel like a big deal.

Save Modern Times 'til you're cracking 10s.

Take your time.
_________________________
Shongum ain\'t Indian,
it\'s Shawank-unk.

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#58478 - 07/03/11 11:14 AM Re: confidence routes [Re: yorick]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5979
Loc: 212 land
I agree generally with Yorick's advice. Unless one shows remarkable talent and self-confidence, one winds up doing quite a bit of downclimbing -- no use practising it.
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#58479 - 07/03/11 01:35 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: oenophore]
Rickster Online   content
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 853
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Originally Posted By: oenophore
I agree generally with Yorick's advice. Unless one shows remarkable talent and self-confidence, one winds up doing quite a bit of downclimbing -- no use practising it.


On the other hand, and this goes back to old school trad ethics, many climbers today climbing at or above their limits, quite commonly will hang dog, or take repeated falls rather than "waste" the energy of down climbing. Personally, I was a cautious climber who'd rather down climb than pop and hang dogging was reason for a slap up side the head.

Down climbing is a valuable skill on the crag and oh so necessary in the mountains and has saved my bacon a few times. Doing it for the sake of practice isn't too bad an idea.

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#58480 - 07/03/11 04:01 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: oenophore]
yorick Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: hamlet\'s hand
Originally Posted By: oenophore
Unless one shows remarkable talent and self-confidence, one winds up doing quite a bit of downclimbing -- no use practising it.


Downclimbing uses opposing muscles and teaches you to eyeball your foot placements. I always ran a complimentary lap downclimbing whatever I TRd.
_________________________
Shongum ain\'t Indian,
it\'s Shawank-unk.

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#58481 - 07/03/11 05:40 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: yorick]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5979
Loc: 212 land
What I meant here is that much like Rickster, I did lots of downclimbing when I wasn't certain of initial success. I did that so much, I got good at it and didn't need to practice it for its own sake and I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that others do the same. But if one would rather hangdog than downclimb, that's a different thing. Downclimbing skill is quite important.
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#58484 - 07/03/11 07:14 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: oenophore]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
I have to take issue to the "hangdogging deserves a slap upside the head" business. I thoroughly support anyones endeavor to do a route safely, and doing it safely means hanging at a piece instead of falling, then who is anyone to criticize that? Would you rather people commit to every move while on lead and damn the consequences? Personally, if I absolutely no I don't have the juice to make it ot the next stance, and I don't have the juice to downclimb, then I am going to hang. I don't care what anyone thinks of my style.

I would rather see that than people who don't know what they are doing gettign way over their heads and causing accidents. I also don't buy into the notion that one must be able to lead it without hanging before one gets on it. That is a BIG FAT rule, and I don't like following anyones rule when I climb except my own. telling people they have no business on a route if they are hanging it is pretty freaking elitist.

Hang all you want. Shit, put extra gear in while you hang! Just be honest about how you climbed it and I will respect you!

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#58485 - 07/03/11 08:08 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: RangerRob]
Rickster Online   content
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 853
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
RR, My apologies, I wasn't clear enough in my post regarding the "slap up side the head" That referred to my hand slapping me upside the head.

Rereading my post, I don't see where I wrote, that "people have no business on a route if they are hanging". Nor did oenophore in his followup post. I agree, that would be pretty elitist.

And, no I would not recommend people "commit to every move while on lead and damn the consequences." It wasn't my climbing style and I wouldn't expect it of others. However, I would have been a more successful climber had I been bolder and gone for it more often.

I did begin my post referencing "old school trad ethics" and what "personal" choices I made regarding my climbing style. So, let me be more clear, I've hung on the rope exactly for the reasons you cite. It wasn't my plan upon leaving the ground however, but was occasionally necessary. Those events were most often followed by lowering off and re-climbing to the highpoint and hopefully, beyond. Again, more personal choices.

By the tone of your post, I'll presume you've had this discussion before and I agree that folks should make their own personal choices regarding climbing style.

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#58486 - 07/03/11 09:14 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: RangerRob]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
First of all, hangdogging as I've seen it practiced rarely has to do with "absolutely not having the juice to make it to the next stance" or to downclimb. In those circumstances, going for it and so taking a bigger fall would be stupid. But I see people dogging it as soon as the going gets a little tough, way before any of the absolutes Rob mentions come into play, when they still have plenty of options, one of which is to lower off and turn the lead over to their partner because they aren't up to the moves.

Maybe they are a little tired, maybe they are a little scared, so they sit down for a rest. To me, that's BS, it's not free climbing and its not trad climbing. But Rob says I'm relying on MY BIG FAT rule, one that doesn't happen to be HIS BIG FAT RULE, and so am, apparently, "pretty freaking elitist."

Nowadays, it seems you can utter the dread elitist word and anyone so addressed is supposed to crumple in defeat and dishonor. But climbing is about as elitist as it is possible to be. Some people are better than others. Some climbs are out of our reach. And even in sport climbing, there is a hierarchy of styles, some of which are universally recognized as being "better" than others.

Most people aspire to climb harder and better, which means that they fully embrace the very elitism that here is supposed to be some sort of ultimate criticism, but is really just an empty phrase. Climbing is elitist. Get used to it, and understand that you can't score debating points in a climbing discussion just by uttering the e-word.

Returning at least in the general direction of the thread, I don't know whether climbing down has to be practiced so much, but doing it involves certain states of mind which may need to be learned, especially in a training environment dominated by the gym and sport routes, where moving upward, often rather quickly, is the solution to every problem.

First of all, I think climbing down often isn't even on some people's radar. It's not that they can't do it, its more a case that they don't even think about it when the going starts to get tough.

Beyond that, as they climb up into unknown territory, experienced trad climbers are making mental notes about climbing down. They look back to see what the holds they just used look like from above. They make mental notes of where hand and footholds are that disappear, for example when you pull over a ceiling. They might reverse a tricky move before there is any need for or thoughts about retreat, just to be prepared.

Protecting steep climbs often involves climbing up to a strenuous position, working hard to get good gear in, and then climbing back down, not just plopping onto the gear for an extended rest. Rob advances a false dichotomy between safety and commitment, but the reality is far more complex and subtle, and is primarily a question of mental attitude and how committed you are to doing a free climb free.

Beyond that, the old-school climbing skills are not simply the relics of a bygone age now made irrelevant by plug 'n play protection. Sooner or later, you will inevitably find yourself in a bad situation. You made some strenuous moves, it looked like you could get in gear, but when you arrive, already pumped, you find you can't get anything worthwhile in. Your last piece is suddenly rather far below and you're wishing you had doubled up on it, because the next piece below that is way down. You will either have to climb up with a level of control that does not allow for falling, or else climb down, at the very least to minimize the fall you ultimately take.

What happens to you in this circumstance may, to a large extent, depend on whether you've been hang dogging your way up routes or not. If you haven't had the discipline to cope without hanging in situations when hanging is possible, then you aren't likely to fare well when, eventually, you find yourself strung out and hanging is not an option. From this perspective, not weighting the rope as much as possible is actually a form of safety training; it is money in the experience and strategy bank for that eventual rainy day.

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#58487 - 07/03/11 09:44 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: rg@ofmc]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5979
Loc: 212 land
That is one heck of a polemical post and I, for one, find it convincing, especially the last paragraph. Still, (s)he who is without sin may cast the first stone.

(Do you find all this worthwhile, Worthrussell?)
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#58488 - 07/03/11 09:59 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: oenophore]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Nobody is without sin, and everyone can, will, and should forget all the arbitrary rules and expectations and do what has to be done to come back safe.

That said, what you aspire to matters, in my polemical opinion.

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#58492 - 07/03/11 11:13 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: yorick]
jakedatc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
Originally Posted By: yorick
Build a pyramid. Do every 8 and 8 + you can find, then start in on the 9 - before tackling 9s like Ant's Line. Get confident with your wire placements and equalizing pieces. Take Stannard's dictum to heart - three pieces between you and the business. Practice downclimbing. Building a solid base at each sub-grade, the slight increase in difficulty as you move up won't feel like a big deal.

Save Modern Times 'til you're cracking 10s.

Take your time.


Why? Modern times is so hyped up because it is a little bit steep. Yet other 8's are much harder and riskier than MT and get glowing reviews ie Drunkards, Son of Easy O...

MT is an 8 all day long. AND eat's easy to place pro before, through and after the crux roof. Plus there is a fixed red C4 stuck there so you can just clip and go.

This is where a good mix of sport climbing and bouldering come in handy. Being comfortable when the rock tilts back.. especially at the gunks should be just as important as being able to downclimb and all that stuff.

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#58493 - 07/03/11 11:29 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: jakedatc]
yorick Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: hamlet\'s hand
Originally Posted By: jakedatc

Why?


Just a suggestion.
_________________________
Shongum ain\'t Indian,
it\'s Shawank-unk.

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#58494 - 07/03/11 11:34 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: yorick]
jakedatc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
Originally Posted By: yorick
Originally Posted By: jakedatc

Why?


Just a suggestion.


I think it is overhyped and once people get on it they realize that. I find the approach bit from the ledge to the roof to be more tricky than the roof.


Edited by jakedatc (07/03/11 11:34 PM)

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#58497 - 07/04/11 12:58 AM Re: confidence routes [Re: jakedatc]
worthrussell Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/11/10
Posts: 90
Loc: NY, Brooklyn

Interesting commentary. For the record i have zero issues with down climbing and i've found myself in more than a couple scenarios where i've felt it necessary to do so. However I don't see the issue with hanging on gear. Im not into the elitism of climbing. I don't necessarily care about grade. What i care about is being able to visit other climbing areas in the adks and such and being able to lead climbs all day. I've been eyeballing poke o for some time now but what's the point. All the leads are at my limit or harder. I wanna go out, lead and enjoy the day. In order to do this my lead limit needs to rise a bit both mentally and physically.

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#58498 - 07/04/11 02:43 AM Re: confidence routes [Re: worthrussell]
SethG Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 713
Loc: NYC
Worthrussell, I think the answer is maybe not the one you want to hear. It sounds to me from your first post like you think you would have sent Ants' Line if you'd just had the confidence to climb through without placing so much gear. And maybe that's correct. But I'm glad you did place the gear, and I fear that your goal is to be bolder and place less pro, when I would hope instead that your goal would be to gain the strength and technique to BOTH place the gear and make the moves.

My answer to the question of how to get solid at 5.9 is to keep on working up the grades as you've been doing. There are a lot of great 5.8's in the Gunks, some very challenging for the grade. City Lights is not, in my opinion, one of these challenging 5.8's. It has one unique, weird move, and then a little 5.6 and a lot of 5.4. It is a great climb, but it is not a good climb to use to measure whether you are ready to skip into the next grade. Climb a lot of other 5.8's and you'll begin to get a better feel for when you're ready to move into the next grade. You'll also get to do some of the best climbs in the Gunks.

Have fun and be safe out there.
_________________________
It's true, I have a blog. http://climbandpunishment.blogspot.com/

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#58499 - 07/04/11 03:27 AM Re: confidence routes [Re: SethG]
Coppertone Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Newtown, CT
As usual I respect and pretty much agree with what Rich has to say although he says it allot better than I ever will be able to. There is no magic potion to getting better. Just put the time in and when your mind and body are ready to advance then it will just happen. Having goals is a great thing, but trying to put improvement onto a tight timeline may not be the best thing to do. The rock isn't going anywhere and when you are ready to climb it, it will be there.

The funny thing about what Seth says is that it is good to be safe and place more gear if you are not ready to run it out a bit, but usually once you are strong enough to hang in an place all that gear without getting pumped you don't really need it. P38 is a great example of that. You can place all the gear you want to on that climb but if you do over protect it you are probably going to get pumped out. Once you are strong enough and have the confidence to hang in and get as much gear as you like your generally also strong enough to climb through while only placing a few pieces.

By the way since when did City Lights become a 5.8. It has been 5.7 forever as far as I know.

Continue to hone your skills on safe 5.8's such as Ants Line, Arrow, Snookys, Alphones and Airy Aria just to name a few and you will eventually get to where you are looking to go.

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#58500 - 07/04/11 03:29 AM Re: confidence routes [Re: SethG]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
No one can judge what another person should or should not be doing, especially not on the basis of an internet account. But "onsighting" all the 5.7's (does that include hanging on pro as on the "onsight" of Ant's Line?) and then doing a one-move 5.8- doesn't, on the surface, suggest that a 5.9 campaign is next in order.

I'd suggest a more appropriate goal for this season is to be solid at 5.8. That would mean onsighting (using the real definition of the term) classics like Birdland (to the top), Farewell to Arms, Yellow Belly, Alphonse, and Broken Sling in the Near Trapps and Absurdland, Annie Oh, Three Doves, Double Crack, Pas de Deux, Son of Easy O, Boldville, and Mr. P's Wurst in the Trapps. (This is not a starter set, it is some of the routes you would want to feel solid on before taking on the 5.9's.)

As for Poko Moonshine, at 5.8 you have a very solid weekend of excellent climbing in Discord, FM (5.7 but you won't be bored) Gamesmanship of course, Paralysis and Sunburst Arete. (But check the DEC site for peregrine falcon closures before heading up there---a significant portion of the cliff is usually closed through most of July).

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#58503 - 07/04/11 01:21 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: rg@ofmc]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Sunburst Arete is fabulous, but steep and wandery a little at least in the first pitch. I found it to be one of those headgames where you just have to climb up into the next move, being confident that the next 5.8 hold will appear as you do.

Rich, I hear you about throwing out the "elitist" word. But I can still make my point without using that word. I still stand by what I said. Of course we all respect the way things were, and had to be done back in the day. But I think people climb for all sorts of different reasons, and to assume that style should does matter to everyone....I just feels like putting your expectations on others.

I'm not talking to or about anyone in particular here, just the notions that are brought up. Style DOES matter to me, but that style is based upon my needs, and my goals. My climbing style is about being honest with yourrself and others about your climbing, respecting the rock, or the ice, or the mountain, respecting the environment and not bringing it down to your level. This style enables me to get the experience I want to get. I tend to climb with people who share my ideas about style and climbing ethics.

Anyway, it's all good. I'm sorry about the E word. Sorry I misread your post Rickster, I've been doin gthat a lot lately. I need to be a little warmer and fuzzier.

Back to confidence routes. I've always felt that No Glow is a nice 5.9 to feel confident on. Sort of runout 5.6ish climbin gomn the first pitch...just to warm your psyche up. The second pitch has cool climbing gup to the crux, with a good pin right over the crux, and some challenging moves right after it. Sort of gets you into the mind frame of pulling harder moves over your gear.

RR

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#58508 - 07/04/11 04:45 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: RangerRob]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Rob, we've been agreeing to disagree about these issues for some time now. About one thing I don't think anyone can disagree: the entire enterprise of climbing is based on voluntary restraint. Climbers do not allow themselves all the means that are available.

I believe you would say that the choice of means and methods, as long as it does not alter the environment, is a totally individual matter, and the only responsibility an individual has to the community is to be honest about how they succeeded. That's hard to argue with, and is, I think, quintessentially American in its rejection of the role tradition and the dismissal of any role for community opinion.

If we are speaking of constitutional rights, there can be no question that you are correct. But I think the role of tradition in trad climbing has been and is absolutely critical---remember what "trad" is a contraction of? Tradition, even when it is under fire, as it always will be, still guides what the community recognizes as a valid achievement, even as the community fights to modify the restraints tradition exhorts.

Does this mean that I, for example, am imposing my expectations on others as you say? Well, yes, it does. Not my personal expectations, but the expectations of the community that basically invented what is now called trad climbing in this country. There is something called trad climbing, and climbers aren't doing it if they are dogging their way up routes.

Do climbers have some kind of "right" to dog their way up routes? Of course. Should they be honest about their methods? Ideally, yes. Are they trad climbers? Not if they climb this way regularly, and this is not just me talking. They haven't embraced the traditions that define what they claim to be doing, and so they aren't doing it.

A typical response to this is "f#ck off a##hole, I don't give a damn what you think or say." (I thought I'd get that in right away because it is bound to show up anyway.) If I thought everyone was like this, I'd probably just shut up about it all, but in fact I think there are plenty of people who really do care and who could use, from time to time, a little support for their attempt to resist the redefinition of trad climbing as nothing more than sport climbing on gear.

Happy Independence day folks.

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#58512 - 07/04/11 07:50 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: rg@ofmc]
artisan Offline
stranger

Registered: 03/22/09
Posts: 23
"f#ck off a##hole" would be one response, although that "typical" line of attack has been deftly defended.

alternatively, one might read these pages and pages of ethical thuggery and think "there goes that curmudgeonly old nerd again, spraying endlessly about the general failings of modern climbers who don't respect or recognize a time when men were men and we down climbed our first ascents with the rope in our teeth."

because really your biggest beef seems to be that people call themselves trad climbers, and really, they have NO RIGHT TO. which sounds suspiciously like sport climbers arguing over claiming a red point or a pink point or a dead point offsight flash.

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#58513 - 07/04/11 08:21 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: artisan]
curmudgeon Online   content
addict

Registered: 10/27/10
Posts: 466


Edited by curmudgeon (07/05/11 11:45 AM)

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#58515 - 07/04/11 10:57 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: artisan]
Coppertone Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Newtown, CT
Originally Posted By: artisan
"f#ck off a##hole" would be one response, although that "typical" line of attack has been deftly defended.

alternatively, one might read these pages and pages of ethical thuggery and think "there goes that curmudgeonly old nerd again, spraying endlessly about the general failings of modern climbers who don't respect or recognize a time when men were men and we down climbed our first ascents with the rope in our teeth."

because really your biggest beef seems to be that people call themselves trad climbers, and really, they have NO RIGHT TO. which sounds suspiciously like sport climbers arguing over claiming a red point or a pink point or a dead point offsight flash.


Not sure what you have been reading or who pissed your cornflakes, but this has been a pretty civil discussion about helping a fairly new leader safely get to what are his current goals. I don't see anyone saying that someone doesn't have a right to call themselves a trad climber, but more along the lines of being honest with yourself and how to safely achieve higher levels of leading and there are differing opinions on this. Some things pointed out such as onsighting a lead with a bunch of hangs is not an attack, but a reality check. Being able to truly onsight a climb such as Ants Line should come with relative ease before you consider tackling 5.9's. This is not an attack on someones worthiness of being called a trad climber.

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#58516 - 07/05/11 12:23 AM Re: confidence routes [Re: Coppertone]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Originally Posted By: Coppertone
Being able to truly onsight a climb such as Ants Line should come with relative ease before you consider tackling 5.9's.


Huh?

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#58517 - 07/05/11 12:53 AM Re: confidence routes [Re: Mike Rawdon]
worthrussell Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/11/10
Posts: 90
Loc: NY, Brooklyn
Thanks for the advice all. My personal style is to avoid hanging if possible. I agree with the down climbing being a good skill and have used it often on runout routes/ wet routes in both the gunks and the adks. I think a problem with these forums is that there is a range of differing opinions when it comes to leading and people seem to get pissed when opposing opinions come to light. I agree that becoming a 5.8 leader is a good goal but isnt it true that falling becomes part of the game as one progresses. I would assume the possibility of blowing on 5.11 is much higher than on a 5.9 and at some point you gotta get used to falling. I also am confused how my post about taking a hang on my first 5.9 lead becomes a bunch of hangs by the final post. Has ant's line been downgraded? The previous routesmentioned in this thread in the 5.8 realm have been noted in my guide book and will be ticked off 1 by 1. thanks for the suggestions. Also if anyone is looking for a partner friday and doesn't mind being the rope gun for my novice ass it would be much appreciated

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#58518 - 07/05/11 02:19 AM Re: confidence routes [Re: artisan]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Originally Posted By: artisan
"f#ck off a##hole" would be one response, although that "typical" line of attack has been deftly defended.

Spoken like a gentleman...

...who rather quickly withdraws from the scene:

Originally Posted By: artisan
...alternatively, one might read these pages and pages of ethical thuggery...

Ethical thuggery? What a weird juxtaposition of terms. Please note that nowhere did I ever use the term ethics. We are speaking of "rules of the game," not anything with ethical content.

Originally Posted By: artisan
...and think "there goes that curmudgeonly old nerd again, spraying endlessly about the general failings of modern climbers who don't respect or recognize a time when men were men and we down climbed our first ascents with the rope in our teeth."

Yeah, I knew the old guy ad hominem attack was coming too. In addition to avoiding the actual issues and hoping no one notices, it wanders further from reality by introducing points I never made and have no interest in, such as whether or not anyone respects the feats of days gone by.

There are plenty of young climbers who also believe that trad is actually short for something---its not an old guy thing.

Originally Posted By: artisan
...because really your biggest beef seems to be that people call themselves trad climbers, and really, they have NO RIGHT TO.

I guess I did word it that way. I should have said that some people indulge in a form of climbing they call trad, but it isn't.

Originally Posted By: artisan
...which sounds suspiciously like sport climbers arguing over claiming a red point or a pink point or a dead point offsight flash.

Thanks for that. It shows that young modern climbers care just as passionately about the style of their ascents as the nerdy old farts you're trying to dismiss with a combination of predictable insults and facile insinuations about motives. And this passion about style is not a surprise, because, as I said in the beginning, at the very heart of climbing lies the essential concept of voluntary restraint.

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#58519 - 07/05/11 03:44 AM Re: confidence routes [Re: rg@ofmc]
Rickster Online   content
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 853
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Worthwhile,
Yes, to climbers of a certain age, Drunkards was a 5.7, No Glow was a 5.8 and Ant's Line was a 5.9. Like many climbs over the years, ratings have been adjusted either up or down.

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#58524 - 07/05/11 02:08 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: Rickster]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Rich I think we agree maybe a little more than you may think. I personally try to live up to the style in which routes were done. I know my skills well enough now to know when I should go for it and risk the fall, or downclimb. I admit, I have dogged my way up routes in the past. It's not a style I aspire to. I feel much better about myself having taken a big fall from a crux, or downclimbing a bunch, than getting gear in and yelling TAKE! I like to consider myself a traditional climber in some sense.

But I don't prescribe to the notion that other people who climb on gear routes also hold this same aspiration. If some 5.8 climber wants to lead Doubleissima and hang on every single piece he or she places, but has fun doing it and just wants to enjoy the feel of the rock and the position, then who am I, or you, to tell them they shouldn't be doing that?

I see your point though, in that there should be a collective sense of style in a traditional climbing scene. I get that totally.

Worth...pm me. I may be able to get out Friday afternoon and evening. have to check with the boss first. Maybe we'll go do No Glow.

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#58526 - 07/05/11 03:16 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: RangerRob]
stoopid Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 67
Loc: West Sand Lake, NY
Worth, I'm going to miss climbing with you (eventually). As you progress (past what I'm willing and capable of climbing) you'll shed and attract new climbing buddies. It's all part of the sport I suppose. Hopefully you'll still get out for some funsie stuff from time to time, like the plans to do some TR'ing at Peterskill to help nudge our grade and skills up a few nothces... versus doing it on lead, which as has been discussed, is IMHO the dangerous way of learning to climb stronger.

BTW, good lead on Ants Line. I wasn't even willing to try the crux with the swing, and you did it with style with some decent fall potential on less than bomber gear. Anyone know what the face climbing immediately left of Ant's Line's crux goes at? It was tough, maybe as tough, but didn't have any swing on follow so I opted to do it instead.


Edited by stoopid (07/05/11 03:19 PM)

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#58527 - 07/05/11 03:26 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: Rickster]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Originally Posted By: Rickster
Ant's Line was a 5.9.


Huh?

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#58528 - 07/05/11 04:09 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: Mike Rawdon]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Rob, I know we actually agree more than our internet arguments might suggest. And if your hypothetical 5.8 climber wants to dog or aid their way up Doublissma (hopefully not on a crowded weekend though), no one has any business telling them they can't do that. If you aren't harming the environment (and aren't hogging a popular route all day), anything goes.

But---they shouldn't mistake that activity for trad climbing. Perhaps, as in the thread on rc.com you and I also participated in, we need a new designation, gear climbing, to indicate the gear-protected sport-climbing style.

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#58529 - 07/05/11 04:22 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: rg@ofmc]
Dana Offline
addict

Registered: 07/13/00
Posts: 619
Hey Rich,

You better stop posting and log off. We're going to be late for our shift at the buggy whip factory.

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#58530 - 07/05/11 04:55 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: Mike Rawdon]
Coppertone Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Newtown, CT
Originally Posted By: Mike Rawdon
Originally Posted By: Rickster
Ant's Line was a 5.9.


Huh?


Mike rereading your quoted statement of mine I agree with your "Huh?" Long weekend, all the fireworks were probably still going off in my ears. What I meant to say is that you should be able to onsight a 5.9 such as Ant's line with relative ease before moving onto other more challenging 5.9's and considering yourself a 5.9 leader.

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#58532 - 07/05/11 05:00 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: stoopid]
jakedatc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
Originally Posted By: stoopid
Worth, I'm going to miss climbing with you (eventually). As you progress (past what I'm willing and capable of climbing) you'll shed and attract new climbing buddies. It's all part of the sport I suppose. Hopefully you'll still get out for some funsie stuff from time to time, like the plans to do some TR'ing at Peterskill to help nudge our grade and skills up a few nothces... versus doing it on lead, which as has been discussed, is IMHO the dangerous way of learning to climb stronger.

BTW, good lead on Ants Line. I wasn't even willing to try the crux with the swing, and you did it with style with some decent fall potential on less than bomber gear. Anyone know what the face climbing immediately left of Ant's Line's crux goes at? It was tough, maybe as tough, but didn't have any swing on follow so I opted to do it instead.


The left face of the Ants line corner is Ents line .11 something. next face over from Ants line's corner is a .7

what swing were you taking from Ants line's crux It's basically a straight shot from the bolted anchor.

i'd consider Ants line 9- and P1 bonnies to be 8+. eat gear and you can get decent stem rests in many spots.

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#58534 - 07/05/11 05:00 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: stoopid]
Coppertone Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Newtown, CT
Originally Posted By: stoopid

BTW, good lead on Ants Line. I wasn't even willing to try the crux with the swing, and you did it with style with some decent fall potential on less than bomber gear. Anyone know what the face climbing immediately left of Ant's Line's crux goes at? It was tough, maybe as tough, but didn't have any swing on follow so I opted to do it instead.


If you are doing any move on Ants Line with less than bomber gear then you are doing something wrong. I can't think of a better protected climb. There really should not be any swing to worry about. The crux on that has endless gear just below and about the best #1 Camalot placement there is at the overhang with plenty of gear as soon as you pull up. The face to the left is Ent's Line, a really good climb, and depending on exactly what line you take generally goes anywhere from 11.a to 11.c.

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#58536 - 07/05/11 05:29 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: rg@ofmc]
tradjunkie Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 365
Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
But---they shouldn't mistake that activity for trad climbing. Perhaps, as in the thread on rc.com you and I also participated in, we need a new designation, gear climbing, to indicate the gear-protected sport-climbing style.


Did you gearpoint the route or just geardog it?

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#58537 - 07/05/11 06:22 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: worthrussell]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2361
Loc: Boston
Originally Posted By: worthrussell
I've onsighted all of the three and two star gray dick's 5.7s....<snip>
and the following day onsighted ants line. I ended up hang dogging the crux on ants


Based on the above, I have no idea now if you can even climb 5.7.

Please define for us your definition of "onsight".

Thanks,

GO

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#58538 - 07/05/11 07:07 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: GOclimb]
tradjunkie Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 365
I have yet to hangdog all the 2 and 3 star 5.7s in the Gunks, so I think I'm falling behind.

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#58539 - 07/05/11 07:25 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: tradjunkie]
jakedatc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
Originally Posted By: tradjunkie
I have yet to hangdog all the 2 and 3 star 5.7s in the Gunks, so I think I'm falling behind.


you should do laps on High E until you have a screaming epic. then you will be ready to tackle 5.7 hangdogs. good luck!

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#58540 - 07/05/11 10:21 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: tradjunkie]
worthrussell Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/11/10
Posts: 90
Loc: NY, Brooklyn
GO

I could define onsight for you and if I was a complete moron I could just google it or break out my AMA learning basic skills red and white book and type the defintion in word for word. It's an internet forum take my word or don't it doesn't t really matter what you believe my climbing level to be. Are you a certified guide? Would you like to take me out and assess my skill level? I'm not sure what confuses you GO, please define

Thanks

Worth

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#58541 - 07/05/11 10:31 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: worthrussell]
jakedatc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
Originally Posted By: worthrussell
GO

I could define onsight for you and if I was a complete moron I could just google it or break out my AMA learning basic skills red and white book and type the defintion in word for word. It's an internet forum take my word or don't it doesn't t really matter what you believe my climbing level to be. Are you a certified guide? Would you like to take me out and assess my skill level? I'm not sure what confuses you GO, please define

Thanks

Worth


Worth, what he is getting at is that Onsight means first try, little to no beta, no falls or hangs. since you hung, by definition, you did not onsight the route.

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#58548 - 07/05/11 11:44 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: worthrussell]
tradjunkie Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 365
Action: search "onsight" definition on google.com, top 5 search results:

RESULT 1: WIKIPEDIA
Definition for onsight:
Chesapeake Utilities Corporation is a publicly held American energy services company focusing on distribution of natural gas and propane in the Delaware, Maryland and Florida. The corporate headquarters are located in Dover, Delaware...
[librarian's note for the confused: Onsight Energy, LLC is a subsidiary of Chesapeake]

RESULT 2: WORDNIK:
Sorry, no definitions found.

Examples
"And there are already onsight infant and toddler programs for people who are very busy." CNN Transcript - Special Event: Millennium 2000: Tomorrow's Children - January 3, 2000

"We also suggest closed loop systems and onsight regulatory inspection for each well as it is being cemented." Natural Gas Drilling Threatens Trout in Pennsylvania (and Other Appalachian States)

"It can be an "onsight" event or an event held at the location of the organization co-sponsoring." Getting people to show at author events, the music way - The Book Publicity Blog

....

RESULT 3: REVERSO DICTIONARY
No exact match found for your search 'onsight'.
Suggests: "on side"
adj
adv (Football, hockey, etc.) (of a player) in a legal position, as when behind the ball or with a required number of opponents between oneself and the opposing team's goal line

RESULT 4: MERRIAM-WEBSTER
1sight noun \&#712;s&#299;t\


Definition of SIGHT

1
: something that is seen : spectacle
2
a : a thing regarded as worth seeing —usually used in plural <the sights of the city>
b : something ludicrous or disorderly in appearance <you look a sight>
3
a chiefly dialect : a great number or quantity........

RESULT 5: ROCKCLIMBING.COM
Look, it just ain't that complicated.
The term 'onsight' - like so many other climbing terms - relates back to, and has its foundation in, doing FAs. It applied to doing an FA on the first attempt, i.e. with no prior knowledge of any kind. That's 'onsight' in its purest form. Onsight beyond that is while you may not have the FA, you climbed it without prior knowledge. Again, in the purest form possible, that would be you arrived at a crag, eyeballed the lines, jumped on one and managed to ascend it [clean] on the first attempt....

Past that everything essentially sullies the 'quality' or 'purity' of an onsight:

Know it's been climbed? Ding.
Know the grade? Ding.
Know the route-finding details? Ding.
Know the pro required? Ding, ding.
Know beta on any of the moves? Ding, ding, ding.
All the holds are perma-chalked? Ding, ding, ding, ding.

Have all or most of those in place and the term is reduced to posing social spray with little relevance to the original context and meaning.

Which tends to mean that you are not going to get a very pure "sport" onsight ever -- the line of bolts basically tells you both "it has been climbed" and "the route finding details"......

/truncate: [predictable angels-on-pinheads argument over the possibility of onsighting any rock ever sullied by human fingerprint, ever outed as being climbable in human conversation or recorded media, or ......]

Research librarian's note: Results of this search gave unclear and conflicting results. However, it appears that Result 4, Definition 2(b) is the most applicable to your situation.

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#58550 - 07/06/11 12:11 AM Re: confidence routes [Re: tradjunkie]
worthrussell Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/11/10
Posts: 90
Loc: NY, Brooklyn
I see your point journeyman and TJ. I suppose i've been misinformed and what a horrible place to be so. I was under the impression that onsighting a ROUTE was to go to a climb and w/o other climbers beta and climb. If you didn't do it clean it isn't an onsight. I was unaware that knowing any one thing about the route,chalkmarks and good spots to belay, dropped the onsight . what is the proper term? Now i really do need some clarification

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#58552 - 07/06/11 01:05 AM Re: confidence routes [Re: worthrussell]
jakedatc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
I consider a guidebook description and chalk/bolts still an onsight. See where route goes.. climb route first go, no falls. That is fairly anal if you ask me.

Once you fall or get specific climbing beta ie giant jug over roof to the left onsight is gone. next clean run from the bottom is redpoint.

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#58557 - 07/06/11 03:45 AM Re: confidence routes [Re: worthrussell]
tradjunkie Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 365
Just giving you a hard time.

OK, let's make it clear.

Yes, onsighting is leading the route on your first attempt without beta, falling, or weighting the rope. By your own description, you did NOT onsight Ant's Line.

"He didn't fall? Onsight!"
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMHCegdJcro

Between your misuse of 'onsight' and your strange jump from lots of 5.7s to hanging on one 5.9 (with a single one-move-wonder 5.7 recently upgraded to 5.8-, namely City Lights, to transition), to your violent reaction at being caught out at your misuse of the word, you kind of set your self up.

By the way, there is nothing wrong with not getting the onsight. Many people would be glad to get up Ant's, period. The issue is falsely claiming an onsight.

By the way, you still seem confused. Let me highlight your original post to help remind you what does and does not constitute an onsight:

Quote:
I just started breaking into the 8s with a lead on city lights and the following day onsighted ants line. I ended up hang dogging the crux on ants due to the fact that i spent too much time placing perfect gear the whole way up.

Is it possible that perhaps what you are doing is instead misunderstanding the phrase "hang dogging?" The word "hang" is a giveaway. Note that an onsight by definition does not include any hangs. Hangdogging is pretty much as close to the exact stylistic opposite of onsight as you can get.

I won't get into the argument that there are enough stemming rests on Ant's below the crux that...oh, never mind.

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#58558 - 07/06/11 03:53 AM Re: confidence routes [Re: worthrussell]
tradjunkie Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 365
Originally Posted By: worthrussell
I see your point journeyman and TJ. I suppose i've been misinformed and what a horrible place to be so. I was under the impression that onsighting a ROUTE was to go to a climb and w/o other climbers beta and climb. If you didn't do it clean it isn't an onsight. I was unaware that knowing any one thing about the route,chalkmarks and good spots to belay, dropped the onsight . what is the proper term? Now i really do need some clarification


If you did walk up to City Lights and say "hm, that looks like the route," not watch anyone else climb it, and climb it clean with no hangs or falls, I don't think anyone* would begrudge you claiming the onsight, regardless of chalk, the obvious belay chains, reading the guidebook descriptions or whatever.

*(apart from a few deviant hair-splitters on other climbing websites)

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#58579 - 07/06/11 02:34 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: tradjunkie]
Coppertone Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Newtown, CT
Worth. I think aspiring to get better and reach higher grades are goals that most of us share. Just don't loose sight of what is front you in trying to get there. There are a whole host of great 5.8 climbs to challenge yourself with and more importantly enjoy. There are also tons of great climbs that do not get three stars that in some cases are better than the classics. When you get to be and solid 5.9 leader, and it certainly sounds like you will, you will be happy you took the time to enjoy the things that it took to get there.

After overcoming a few torn biceps operations over the past few years I have found that revisiting some of the easier climbs that I hadn't done much in the previous years has been a great experience and reaffirmed how much I love climbing, not for the sake of climbing hard and getting on the most difficult routes, but more for the whole experience.

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#58585 - 07/06/11 05:56 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: jakedatc]
stoopid Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 67
Loc: West Sand Lake, NY
Originally Posted By: jakedatc
Originally Posted By: stoopid
Worth, I'm going to miss climbing with you (eventually). As you progress (past what I'm willing and capable of climbing) you'll shed and attract new climbing buddies. It's all part of the sport I suppose. Hopefully you'll still get out for some funsie stuff from time to time, like the plans to do some TR'ing at Peterskill to help nudge our grade and skills up a few nothces... versus doing it on lead, which as has been discussed, is IMHO the dangerous way of learning to climb stronger.

BTW, good lead on Ants Line. I wasn't even willing to try the crux with the swing, and you did it with style with some decent fall potential on less than bomber gear. Anyone know what the face climbing immediately left of Ant's Line's crux goes at? It was tough, maybe as tough, but didn't have any swing on follow so I opted to do it instead.


The left face of the Ants line corner is Ents line .11 something. next face over from Ants line's corner is a .7

what swing were you taking from Ants line's crux It's basically a straight shot from the bolted anchor.


Originally Posted By: coppertone
If you are doing any move on Ants Line with less than bomber gear then you are doing something wrong. I can't think of a better protected climb. There really should not be any swing to worry about. The crux on that has endless gear just below and about the best #1 Camalot placement there is at the overhang with plenty of gear as soon as you pull up.


I wasn't the leader, but seem to recall a good nut placement through the crack system (actually fed the nut into the crack upside down), and that was about it for the start of the crux, then maybe a small cam for the second move to clear the crux. The nut was obviously fine, but the cam wasn't perfect, and if it blew you'd take a bit of a spill. It didn't seem very dangerous or I'd have had Worth downclimb or place more gear, but it did seem PG-ish despite there being plenty of features to use.

The swing was because there was the gear at the crux, then the next piece was 15 feet up and moreso left. If I blew at the crux I'd have a bit of a fast moving ride across the face. At the time it just didn't seem worth it (har har). Our third on the climb had it easy, because as you said the rope falls directly over the route from the anchor.

Ideally Worth could have placed something just above the crux to eliminate the swing, but that's part of learning to lead and protecting the follow(s). In hindsight I could have had the 3rd put me on belay using the tailing rope, but once I saw a way up to the left I traversed out and took that to the left corner of the roof. It wasn't 5.11, I think perhaps I wasn't that far left and probably just in a no-man's zone between the regular line for Ant's Line and the next route.

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#58589 - 07/06/11 06:32 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: worthrussell]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2361
Loc: Boston
Originally Posted By: worthrussell
GO

I could define onsight for you and if I was a complete moron I could just google it or break out my AMA learning basic skills red and white book and type the defintion in word for word. It's an internet forum take my word or don't it doesn't t really matter what you believe my climbing level to be. Are you a certified guide? Would you like to take me out and assess my skill level? I'm not sure what confuses you GO, please define

Thanks

Worth


Huh? Why the defensive tone? I'm not interested in a textbook definition, I'm interested in your definition. Since you the word to describe your ascents on all your climbs thus far, I'd like to know how you define it, so that I can know what your style of ascent was on all your climbs thus far.

BTW, after reading your subsequent posts, I *still* don't know what you mean when you use the word.

My definition of onsight is to lead a climb with no falls, no aid, no resting on the rope, and no beta.

You said you onsighted Ants Line (although I'm starting to wonder if you were actually on a different route) and that you hung on it.

So, clearly, our definitions do not coincide with each other. I would like to know what you mean by onsight.

GO

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#58592 - 07/06/11 06:35 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: stoopid]
Valpine Offline
journeyman

Registered: 06/29/10
Posts: 55
Loc: W.Sand Lake, NY
Originally Posted By: stoopid
Originally Posted By: jakedatc
Originally Posted By: stoopid
Worth, I'm going to miss climbing with you (eventually). As you progress (past what I'm willing and capable of climbing) you'll shed and attract new climbing buddies. It's all part of the sport I suppose. Hopefully you'll still get out for some funsie stuff from time to time, like the plans to do some TR'ing at Peterskill to help nudge our grade and skills up a few nothces... versus doing it on lead, which as has been discussed, is IMHO the dangerous way of learning to climb stronger.

BTW, good lead on Ants Line. I wasn't even willing to try the crux with the swing, and you did it with style with some decent fall potential on less than bomber gear. Anyone know what the face climbing immediately left of Ant's Line's crux goes at? It was tough, maybe as tough, but didn't have any swing on follow so I opted to do it instead.


The left face of the Ants line corner is Ents line .11 something. next face over from Ants line's corner is a .7

what swing were you taking from Ants line's crux It's basically a straight shot from the bolted anchor.


Originally Posted By: coppertone
If you are doing any move on Ants Line with less than bomber gear then you are doing something wrong. I can't think of a better protected climb. There really should not be any swing to worry about. The crux on that has endless gear just below and about the best #1 Camalot placement there is at the overhang with plenty of gear as soon as you pull up.


I wasn't the leader, but seem to recall a good nut placement through the crack system (actually fed the nut into the crack upside down), and that was about it for the start of the crux, then maybe a small cam for the second move to clear the crux. The nut was obviously fine, but the cam wasn't perfect, and if it blew you'd take a bit of a spill. It didn't seem very dangerous or I'd have had Worth downclimb or place more gear, but it did seem PG-ish despite there being plenty of features to use.

The swing was because there was the gear at the crux, then the next piece was 15 feet up and moreso left. If I blew at the crux I'd have a bit of a fast moving ride across the face. At the time it just didn't seem worth it (har har). Our third on the climb had it easy, because as you said the rope falls directly over the route from the anchor.

Ideally Worth could have placed something just above the crux to eliminate the swing, but that's part of learning to lead and protecting the follow(s). In hindsight I could have had the 3rd put me on belay using the tailing rope, but once I saw a way up to the left I traversed out and took that to the left corner of the roof. It wasn't 5.11, I think perhaps I wasn't that far left and probably just in a no-man's zone between the regular line for Ant's Line and the next route.


Just to clear up the confusion...Stoopid is referring to City Lights, not Ant's Line. Worth on-sighted City Lights with stoopid following. Worth led Ant's Line on a different day with a different partner.


Edited by Valpine (07/06/11 08:15 PM)

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#58593 - 07/06/11 06:40 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: Valpine]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2361
Loc: Boston
Originally Posted By: Valpine
Originally Posted By: stoopid
Originally Posted By: jakedatc
Originally Posted By: stoopid
Worth, I'm going to miss climbing with you (eventually). As you progress (past what I'm willing and capable of climbing) you'll shed and attract new climbing buddies. It's all part of the sport I suppose. Hopefully you'll still get out for some funsie stuff from time to time, like the plans to do some TR'ing at Peterskill to help nudge our grade and skills up a few nothces... versus doing it on lead, which as has been discussed, is IMHO the dangerous way of learning to climb stronger.

BTW, good lead on Ants Line. I wasn't even willing to try the crux with the swing, and you did it with style with some decent fall potential on less than bomber gear. Anyone know what the face climbing immediately left of Ant's Line's crux goes at? It was tough, maybe as tough, but didn't have any swing on follow so I opted to do it instead.


The left face of the Ants line corner is Ents line .11 something. next face over from Ants line's corner is a .7

what swing were you taking from Ants line's crux It's basically a straight shot from the bolted anchor.


Originally Posted By: coppertone
If you are doing any move on Ants Line with less than bomber gear then you are doing something wrong. I can't think of a better protected climb. There really should not be any swing to worry about. The crux on that has endless gear just below and about the best #1 Camalot placement there is at the overhang with plenty of gear as soon as you pull up.


I wasn't the leader, but seem to recall a good nut placement through the crack system (actually fed the nut into the crack upside down), and that was about it for the start of the crux, then maybe a small cam for the second move to clear the crux. The nut was obviously fine, but the cam wasn't perfect, and if it blew you'd take a bit of a spill. It didn't seem very dangerous or I'd have had Worth downclimb or place more gear, but it did seem PG-ish despite there being plenty of features to use.

The swing was because there was the gear at the crux, then the next piece was 15 feet up and moreso left. If I blew at the crux I'd have a bit of a fast moving ride across the face. At the time it just didn't seem worth it (har har). Our third on the climb had it easy, because as you said the rope falls directly over the route from the anchor.

Ideally Worth could have placed something just above the crux to eliminate the swing, but that's part of learning to lead and protecting the follow(s). In hindsight I could have had the 3rd put me on belay using the tailing rope, but once I saw a way up to the left I traversed out and took that to the left corner of the roof. It wasn't 5.11, I think perhaps I wasn't that far left and probably just in a no-man's zone between the regular line for Ant's Line and the next route.


Just to clear up the confusion...Stoopid is referring to City Lights, not Ant's Line.


Wait, so was Worth on Ants Line or City Lights?

GO

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#58597 - 07/06/11 07:22 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: GOclimb]
ShakesALot Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 258
Loc: NJ

Why do you care so much GO, hasn't Worth already been corrected and scolded enough for you? In the first sentence of his post he admits to being a "relative noob" but you still need to jump in with some more kicks?

Perhaps I'm being too harsh on *you* of course, since obviously you haven't read/comprehended many of the posts in this thread so well...

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#58602 - 07/06/11 08:08 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: ShakesALot]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2361
Loc: Boston
Huh? Shakes, I'm trying to clarify. To be honest, I'm not interested in either correcting or scolding. I'm interested in understanding what the OP was trying to get across.

It's precisely because he's a newish climber that I need to do this. It's quite possible that, for example, he thinks that OS means one's first attempt, whether you get it clean or not. I don't want to give any advice on what climbs would be best for him before I understand the problem.

I don't know about you, but I try to fully understand an issue before I give any advice.

Quote:
Perhaps I'm being too harsh on *you* of course, since obviously you haven't read/comprehended many of the posts in this thread so well...


Since you are so certain, please explain to me what the OP means when he says OS, and which climb he was on when he talks about Ants Line.

Thanks,

GO

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#58604 - 07/06/11 08:30 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: GOclimb]
Valpine Offline
journeyman

Registered: 06/29/10
Posts: 55
Loc: W.Sand Lake, NY
Originally Posted By: GOclimb

Wait, so was Worth on Ants Line or City Lights?

GO


What stoopid is referring to here is City Lights (not Ant's Line)...
Originally Posted By: stoopid
Worth, I'm going to miss climbing with you (eventually). As you progress (past what I'm willing and capable of climbing) you'll shed and attract new climbing buddies. It's all part of the sport I suppose. Hopefully you'll still get out for some funsie stuff from time to time, like the plans to do some TR'ing at Peterskill to help nudge our grade and skills up a few nothces... versus doing it on lead, which as has been discussed, is IMHO the dangerous way of learning to climb stronger.

BTW, good lead on Ants Line. I wasn't even willing to try the crux with the swing, and you did it with style with some decent fall potential on less than bomber gear. Anyone know what the face climbing immediately left of Ant's Line's crux goes at? It was tough, maybe as tough, but didn't have any swing on follow so I opted to do it instead.


I am not questioning anything that Worth has said. I am merely stating that Stoopid got his route names mixed up when making the above statement. Worth has led Ant's Line since he has led City Lights but not with stoopid as a witness.

Comprende??


Edited by Valpine (07/06/11 08:32 PM)

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#58605 - 07/06/11 08:35 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: Valpine]
stoopid Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 67
Loc: West Sand Lake, NY
My bad, complete derailment. I was with worth doing City Lights, but then a few days or week later he did Ants Line with someone else. Sorry!!

FWIW I've enjoyed much of this thread for the insights into climbing and leading. I could personally give two shits if someone onsights, cleanly, with blue underwear on. If they climb, have fun, don't hurt themselves or someone else in the process then I'd call it a success. Names, labels, and definitions for free soloing first ascents onsight while red pointing a red bull concerns me not, and I really think it's a disease on the sport. If one cannot climb for the sheer sake of enjoyment, and numbers and other adjectives become a goal/reason for climbing, then there's little hope. Climb on.

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#58606 - 07/06/11 08:36 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: GOclimb]
worthrussell Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/11/10
Posts: 90
Loc: NY, Brooklyn
Go
if you read the previous posts i stated that my definition of onsight, in regards to Ant's line was improper.I guess the proper phrasing should have been attempting to onsight. This small wording error has been kicked and bashed to death. My definition of onsight is to climb a route clean no hangs and no beta minus whatever was written as a description in the guidebook. This definition has once again been corrected and now my understanding, from previous posters on this forum, is that an onsight and a First ascent are synonymous. After all I suppose any Beta, chalkmarks guidebook etc, constitutes Beta and I'm a mess for not understanding these glaringly obvious definitions. The one thing I have learned throughout this posting on a forum is to not post on this forum unless I'm in the mood to get sprayed.

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#58607 - 07/06/11 08:38 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: worthrussell]
stoopid Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 67
Loc: West Sand Lake, NY
Originally Posted By: worthrussell
The one thing I have learned throughout this posting on a forum is to not post on this forum unless I'm in the mood to get sprayed.


If you post on bulletin boards often enough you develop tough skin and learn to take what you need, and leave the rest. smile

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#58608 - 07/06/11 08:40 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: stoopid]
SethG Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 713
Loc: NYC
There is totally bomber gear (.75 C4) in the upper pod on City Lights! If you're doing that crux with much fall potential you've missed the obvious placement and you're hitting the deck!
_________________________
It's true, I have a blog. http://climbandpunishment.blogspot.com/

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#58609 - 07/06/11 08:41 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: worthrussell]
Valpine Offline
journeyman

Registered: 06/29/10
Posts: 55
Loc: W.Sand Lake, NY
GO, I will be climbing with Worth this week. For a small fee I can slap him upside the head for you.

I will slap stoopid for free.

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#58611 - 07/06/11 08:47 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: SethG]
stoopid Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 67
Loc: West Sand Lake, NY
Originally Posted By: SethG
There is totally bomber gear (.75 C4) in the upper pod on City Lights! If you're doing that crux with much fall potential you've missed the obvious placement and you're hitting the deck!


Seth, that might be the cam placement I remember. Refresh my memory, but does/can the cam get in the way of the hands in that section? Worth would be better equiped to comment here as he was the one leading it and would have the better idea if he thought the gear was sufficient.

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#58612 - 07/06/11 09:23 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: stoopid]
Coppertone Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Newtown, CT
By the way the face just to the left of City Lights is Pax De Duex and is 5.8.

Worth, for the most part I don't think you were really getting bashed, actually most of the disagreement was between others regarding what their thoughts on the style a climb should be done in. The misunderstanding about how you were using "onsight" does have some relevance to what recommendations people would be giving you for your next step in your leading progression. Perhaps this is all just like a Roger Clemens congressional hearing and is was all misremembered.

And Stoopid while everyone is entitled to their own opinion and having fun is a very important thing it really does matter how one climbs as there is a significant difference between a bold ground up onsight first ascent and hangdogging a bolted chalked up 5.8. Making these distinctions is hardly a disease on the sport and giving those bold souls their due that had the vision and foresight to put up the routes that we get to enjoy is the least we can do. Recognizing the achievements of others and the style in which they realized those achievements is not a disease but the history and heritage of climbing. To think otherwise is just silly.

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#58613 - 07/06/11 09:37 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: worthrussell]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2361
Loc: Boston
Okay, I get it. We've got the same definition of OS, you just misapplied it to that one climb.

So, to your question.

Originally Posted By: worthrussell
If you were me and wanted to become a solid 9 leader at the gunks b4 season's end what would you do? easier grade climbing with runout or tr some tough stuff to hone my climbing? Im not caught up in the grade i just love the way the 9s in the gunks look. If i could lead solid 9 i could stay busy in the trapps for quite some time. Any feedback or route suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


Of the two things you suggested (bolded above) I'd say neither. My suggestion would be to spend as much time as you can at the Gunks, on lead, working your way through the grades. Focus on 5.8s for now. Once you get feeling reasonably comfortable on 5.8s, and have done one or two of the harder ones, pick out another easy first 5.9 (or get back on Ants). Keep picking off occasional low-hanging fruit for 5.9s while you continue to work your way through all the 5.8s.

Also, if you are not a local, and have limited time you can spend at the Gunks, but have a climbing gym near your house, spend time there building up strength and endurance.

That would be my suggestion.

Cheers,

GO

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#58617 - 07/06/11 10:20 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: GOclimb]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Originally Posted By: GOclimb

Also, if you are not a local, and have limited time you can spend at the Gunks, but have a climbing gym near your house, spend time there building up strength and endurance.

That would be my suggestion.

Cheers,

GO


I second this. It's amazing what some extra physical capability does for a developing lead head. Conversely, it's hard to be bold and confident above your gear when your fingers/hands/arms are in the midst of a meltdown.

In addition (or as an alternative) to the gym, I'd suggest that as often as possible you TR or follow harder things than you can lead. 5.9 holds seem a bit bigger and more positive after a bout of 5.10 cruxes.

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#58631 - 07/07/11 06:25 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: Coppertone]
stoopid Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 67
Loc: West Sand Lake, NY
Originally Posted By: Coppertone
And Stoopid while everyone is entitled to their own opinion and having fun is a very important thing it really does matter how one climbs as there is a significant difference between a bold ground up onsight first ascent and hangdogging a bolted chalked up 5.8. Making these distinctions is hardly a disease on the sport and giving those bold souls their due that had the vision and foresight to put up the routes that we get to enjoy is the least we can do. Recognizing the achievements of others and the style in which they realized those achievements is not a disease but the history and heritage of climbing. To think otherwise is just silly.


That wasn't quite my intent for the rant... has more to do with people who aren't bold speaking like they are, or whose motivations are more ego than climbing centered. The internet is a great place to build rhetorical muscles.

But while we're on the subject - ultimately, who cares who led the FA? Why should the first ascender care unless they did it for glory and their name in neon lights? A pat on the back and on to the next climb should suffice. Anything more is attention seeking. It's not like they sculpted the cliff with their bare hands.

And I walk the walk - there's routes I've cleaned that I will never be mentioned for having worked on for the FA, and routes I've put up another has free climbed for the first ascent. Oh well, I continue to put up routes when and where I can and if it wasn't for the insistence of Haas and Jawyer I'd not even have my name submitted.
____________________

I third building strength as being an important tool for leading, and the TR'ing idea was already considered when we did City Lights (our next time climbing was supposed to be TR'ing at Peterskill to up our grade a bit). Coming into this season I was, at best, a 5.5 leader at the gunks. Now I'm closer to being a 5.7 some 5.8s leader (in just a matter of 4 months, using the low hanging fruit idea as GO suggested, climbing 5.5 routes, doing some 5.6s, etc to slowly build my abilities). While I have been slow to push my grade, it has more to do with climbing regularly and getting stronger. Despite 4+ years experience I've only this year actually come to feel confident, and it's showing in my climbing.

Worth is one of the strongest climbers I know, and if anything it's been a detriment since he'll tend to powr his way through tough stretches versus using proper technique (which is improving!). At some point a climber must learn technique or they hit a ceiling (and hopefully not a ledge). So it's really a balance of strength, endurance, and technique. I focus on whatever seems lacking at the moment. For me it's been strength. Pull up board at home is slowly being worked into a daily routine, slow as to not damage any ligments/connective tissue. You can get too strong too fast and develop some very serious tendon issues if you're not careful.

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#58649 - 07/08/11 01:02 AM Re: confidence routes [Re: SethG]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
a .75 C4? Really? We're talking about the triangular shaped pod at the top of the crux move, about 10-12 feet off the ground? A number 12 stopper sideways in the bottom of that slot is about the best stopper one could find...anywhere. It seems like the most obvious nut placement on a beginner Gunks route I can think of.

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#58655 - 07/08/11 11:34 AM Re: confidence routes [Re: RangerRob]
SethG Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 713
Loc: NYC
Yeah, that's the pod. The nut sounds good too, my point was that there's good gear there.
_________________________
It's true, I have a blog. http://climbandpunishment.blogspot.com/

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#58668 - 07/08/11 07:03 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: SethG]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Ah yes...I wholeheartedly agree with you.

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#58669 - 07/08/11 07:10 PM Re: confidence routes [Re: RangerRob]
Coppertone Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Newtown, CT
The part on city lights that get slightly run out is the face above when the route bellys out to the left near Pax De Dux. The crux is, as you pointed out extremely well protected.

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