Shout Box

Who's Online
0 registered (), 9 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5 >
Topic Options
#59417 - 08/02/11 12:13 PM MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Lawsuit defendants allege intimidation in Mohonk land disputes
Published: Sunday, July 03, 2011


By WILLIAM J. KEMBLE
Correspondent

GARDINER — Neighboring property owners say the non-profit Mohonk Preserve and its partner agency, the Shawangunk Conservancy, have used intimidation and fraudulent documents to add to the preserve's 7,000 acres.

The allegations are in response to two lawsuits filed by the Mohonk Preserve in state Supreme Court in disputes over land ownership.

In one case, Karen Pardini and her husband, Michael Fink, are awaiting a ruling on the ownership of a 71.45-acre portion of a 300-acre parcel in the town of Rochester.

In the second case, oral arguments were completed this month, but legal documents still are being filed. In the suit, the Mohonk Preserve is seeking to clarify boundaries of a 14-acre property in the town of New Paltz. The suit, which names Christopher Ullrich, Sarah Emond, Thomas Marks and Helen Ullrich as defendants, contends a neighboring parcel has been used for access to preserve property to cut firewood and that "No Trespassing" signs have been removed from preserve property.

As for the 71.45 acres claimed by Pardini and Fink, the Mohonk Preserve, citing a paper trail dating to 1881, argues that deeds show the property is among holdings it obtained through previous purchase. The dispute represents the third legal battle in the past 16 years over ownership of various sections of a 300-acre parcel purchased by the couple from Marellan Associates and the fifth case overall for Fink stemming from the land disputes.

In 2004, the Mohonk Preserve charged Fink with trespassing on preserve property, but the case was dismissed. Fink subsequently filed a suit charging the arrest amounted to malicious prosecution. That suit was settled for an undisclosed sum.

Mohonk Preserve Executive Director Glenn Hoagland acknowledged the settlement but declined to discuss details because of restrictions in the agreement. He did say the organization was forced to ask state police to intervene in the 2004 case because Fink was being disruptive.

The first case overall was won by Pardini and Fink in 1997, when the Shawangunk Conservancy claimed ownership of more than 136 acres. Fink said the conservancy sought property that actively was used by the Mohonk Preserve and that false documents were used to support the conservancy's case.

"The deed that the conservancy claimed the property by was certified to Mohonk Preserve," Fink said. "Their name (Mohonk Preserve) was on the deed. Mohonk Preserve posted the property. Mohonk Preserve installed a cable across the access."

In 2005, the Mohonk Preserve filed suit against Fink and Pardini, claiming it owned a 38-acre parcel. The couple settled by selling the land for $15,000.

"We settled the case because she didn't want to go through any more," Fink said, referring to his wife. "At the time, we'd been in court since 2004 (with the trespassing cases). It affected our lives big time, cost hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars, and she didn't want to go on. At that time, (Pardini) was stressed, so we made a settlement."

Hoagland says the 1997 case involving the Shawangunk Conservancy should not be associated with his organization.

"It is a separate non-profit organization," he said. "We were not involved as a party to that, we weren't named in any judge's decision, we weren't called to testify. It's a huge stretch to say we were involved in that case."

Hoagland said his organization has cordial relations with most owners of properties abutting the Mohonk Preserve.

"It's over 250 contiguous neighbors, and we're in court with two of them," he said.

The case against Christopher Ullrich and his domestic partner, Emond, as current property owners, and Marks and Helen Ullrich involves a boundary dispute. Marks and Helen Ullrich are the parents of Christopher Ullrich. They owned property adjacent to the Mohonk Preserve that they sold in 2005 to their son and Emond.

Christopher Ullrich said the case was initiated after Mohonk Preserve officials came to him with claims that he was clearing land deeded to the preserve by a previous owner.

"They presented me with a map ... and said that the prior owner agreed that the line was here (and) 'we'd like you to sign a boundary line agreement,'" he said. "So I showed the map to my father. He'd never seen the map, and, basically, it turned into a lawsuit from there. Then they didn't even end up using that map. Interestingly enough, the map they have (and produced for the court case) refutes the first map."

Hoagland said Ullrich has declined to produce surveys supporting claims to boundary lines, but he contends there is about a 20-foot margin of difference in ownership claims between the two sides.

"(Christopher Ullrich) bought the property in 2005 and, shortly thereafter, started making incursions seeking private gain onto Mohonk Preserve property," Hoagland said. "As a land conservation organization ... we hold these lands as a public trust, and our job is to defend the lands entrusted to us to prevent these kinds of incursions."

Other property owners also have complained about tactics used in boundary and title disputes by preserve officials, as well as by the Shawangunk Conservancy.

One persistent critic has been Sue Boice Wick, who began following what she calls "bullying" tactics after she said her grandmother was the victim of improper efforts to acquire land in the town of Rochester that had been in the family since 1918.

"The original piece she had ... was 3.75 acres," Wick said. "All of a sudden, it disappeared off the assessment tax roll sometime after 1950."

The change was found by Fink in 1997 and brought to the attention of Wick's family, which ultimately was given title to the property as a 3.26-acre parcel.

"Nobody noticed it was missing because my grandmother died (in 1960), and my mom was busy raising nine kids," Wick said. "Mohonk had known that there was an error as early as 1992, but they didn't do anything about it."

Hoagland said the preserve actually restored ownership to Wick's family after conducting surveys to review its own land holdings. "Those lands were incorrectly assessed by Ulster County, which is often the case" he said.

Wick, a professional property deed title examiner, said her mother was contacted in 1988 about another parcel that Mohonk Preserve officials wanted to buy.

"They told her that if she didn't sign it over to them for a couple hundred dollars, they were going to take her to court and she wasn't going to get anything," she said. "The outcome of that was that my mother called me crying. … So I had her set up a meeting and got (a Mohonk Preserve representative) to say the same thing, then told him to get out of the house."

Wick also said a town of Rosendale property listed at 5 acres was purchased by the Mohonk Preserve at a tax sale in 1987 for $1,400 but since has expanded to 22.59 acres after the preserve conducted surveys. She said that is one of several tactics used by the organization to expand its holdings.

"They create conflicting chains of title, enhance their surveys, they piggyback their deeds, they change the assessments, they threaten, they lie to people and talk people into selling their land for peanuts," she said. "They'll chain off an access road, and then they'll tell people they're landlocked now, (saying), 'We'll give you a key, but you'll never be able to sell your property because we own the road.'"

Hoagland said it's not surprising that acreage would be adjusted after being purchased by the Mohonk Preserve.

"All property the preserve acquires is subject to survey and the normal deed transaction, so if acreage changes, it probably means the surveyor got a look at it and found the deed didn't match the acreage that was being advertised," he said. "That's very common in real estate transactions."
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

Top
#59418 - 08/02/11 12:16 PM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: Advocacy group]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Glenn Hoagland seems to have a very short memory when it comes to neighborly relations. In the above article he claims that Mohonk Preserve is only having issues with two of it's neighbors. I think he forgot about this letter.

As neighbors we, the undersigned, wish to maintain good relationships with the Mohonk Preserve. Events of the last several years however have given us pause. The Mohonk Preserve has used confrontational quit claim deeds to claim land from some neighbors and, in concert with the Shawangunk Conservancy, has used the legal mechanism of adverse possession in an attempt to lay claim to the land of another neighbor. More recently the Mohonk Preserve has been lobbying the Gardiner Town Board to pass the confiscatory, divisive, and highly controversial zoning law now under consideration.

As landowners we have a fiduciary responsibility to ourselves, our families, and our heirs to protect our assets. As a group we have protested loudly and clearly, in many venues, about the unfairness of the proposed Gardiner zoning law and its detrimental impact on our ability to fulfill our responsibilities. Some of us have privately asked the Mohonk Preserve about the unseemliness of their vocal support of the proposed zoning law which benefits them so greatly at our expense. They have failed to respond.

We respect the property rights and boundaries of the Mohonk Preserve. We now ask the Mohonk Preserve to publicly state their willingness to respect the property rights and boundaries of all of their neighbors. In the interest of an ongoing respectful and neighborly relationship we ask the Mohonk Preserve to disavow the use of quit claim deeds and adverse possession to wrest land from their neighbors. Further, we ask the Mohonk Preserve to publicly withdraw their support of the divisive Gardiner zoning law, which will bring disproportionate economic harm to so few, and instead work with us to find more equitable approaches to open space preservation along the ridge.

Respectfully,

Charlie Bales
Don Conklin
Bruce Keeping
Carol Ann Keeping
Mike Yucowicz
Kent Pierce
Pauline Alexander
William Connor
Michael Browne
Jonathon Gascoine
Richard Weaver
Mark Rollins
Helena Duda
Anita Gehrke
Nat Higgins
Rich Lapp
Pam Lapp
Chris Ullrich
Mike Fink
Howard Harder
Toby Stover
Charlie Majestic
Marybeth Majestic
Louise Haviland
Robert Lapp


Thanks, MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

Top
#59419 - 08/02/11 12:18 PM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: Advocacy group]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Oh and these as well.........


The following neighbors have added their signatures to the Open Letter to the Mohonk Preserve:

Thomas Borchert
Donald DeGraw
Susan Boice Wick


Thanks, MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

Top
#59428 - 08/03/11 12:33 AM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: Advocacy group]
cbmd Offline
stranger

Registered: 08/03/11
Posts: 4
I'm not nearly a good enough climber to post here but, having followed these boards for a fair while, I feel it reasonable to seek clarification.

AG/MPNA, why do you continue to agitate in these forums?

I mean this as a serious, genuine question. I can understand and appreciate your position as aggrieved landowners who feel set-upon by the Preserve and constrained by local building codes. Personally, I'm on the other side of the fence: in this day of rabid overdevelopment (see Red Rocks thread), I don't mind entities like the Preserve fighting like they mean it to fulfill their conservationist missions. But I certainly don't begrudge you your position and your right to advocate. However, I'm just really, really confused as to why you keep coming here to do it.

You obviously dedicate a fair amount of time and energy to posting here, albeit for an audience that's (apparently) totally dedicated to the opposing perspective. Wouldn't those considerable efforts be better placed elsewhere?

It just doesn't seem to make strategic sense to have such a strong presence here. In my opinion, your real target-market is those landowners whose properties view the ridge. They have an extremely strong interest in maintaining status-quo of ridgeline views (thus preserving their own property values).

I just don't see how you're expecting climbers--some local, many not--to join your fight in any kind of helpful way (especially when many here have repeatedly spoken to the contrary).

Look, I enjoy the Laurel and Hardy gig just as much as the next guy. And I'm sure you've got to enjoy rattling the cage here, if only to keep your sanity. But it seems to be a big waste of effort if you're truly dedicated to pushing your agenda forward.

This isn't a backhanded attempt to say, "Shut up, mofos!" I really do wonder why you keep stoking the fire here. I'm interested to hear your reply.

And apologies for the longwinded questioning: I know this is a heated issue and didn't want to misrepresent my intentions.

Top
#59434 - 08/03/11 10:20 AM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: cbmd]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5967
Loc: 212 land
You obviously dedicate a fair amount of time and energy to posting here, albeit for an audience that's (apparently) totally dedicated to the opposing perspective. Wouldn't those considerable efforts be better placed elsewhere?

There's nothing wrong with explanation of one's position to those who may oppose it.
_________________________

Top
#59438 - 08/03/11 01:55 PM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: cbmd]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: cbmd
I'm not nearly a good enough climber to post here but, having followed these boards for a fair while, I feel it reasonable to seek clarification.

AG/MPNA, why do you continue to agitate in these forums?


cbmd,

You have asked quite a few questions and stated incorrect MPNA positions. For instance you mention us feeling "Constrained by building codes", we are not opposed to any building codes and have never stated that. You also seem to insinuate that the Mohonk Preserve is anti development and we are Pro destruction of the ridge. Again this is untrue on both sides. As a side note, We find it interesting that the director of land protection for the Mohonk Preserve lives on a "ridge top" property. So it appears that the Mohonk Preserve is Pro ridge top development, just for themselves.
I regards to the Gunks.com user group, we know from PM's, posts and private in person meetings with our friends at Gunks.com that this user group is not "totally dedicated to the opposing perspective". We have chosen to post here because some of the Gunks.com user group supports us and it allows us to see our message through some of our harshest critics perspective. This opposing perspective has allowed us to hone our message and shape our organization.

Thanks, MPNA



Edited by webmaster (08/06/11 02:09 PM)
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

Top
#59444 - 08/03/11 04:49 PM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: Advocacy group]
retroscree Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
As a side note, We find it interesting that the director of land protection for the Mohonk Preserve lives on a "ridge top" property on in Cragsmor. So it appears that the Mohonk Preserve is Pro ridge top development, just for themselves.

You're equating a village with over 400 residents and its own post office that was first settled in the 1700's with new development of wild-lands?
That's just asinine.
And it's spelled Cragsmoor. If you're going to engage in hyperbolic character assassination, get your facts straight.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cragsmoor,_New_York


Edited by webmaster (08/06/11 02:37 PM)

Top
#59449 - 08/03/11 05:24 PM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: retroscree]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
As a side note, We find it interesting that the director of land protection for the Mohonk Preserve lives on a "ridge top" property in Cragsmor. So it appears that the Mohonk Preserve is Pro ridge top development, just for themselves.

You're equating a village with over 400 residents and its own post office that was first settled in the 1700's with new development of wild-lands?
That's just asinine.
And it's spelled Cragsmoor. If you're going to engage in hyperbolic character assassination, get your facts straight.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cragsmoor,_New_York


No we're saying that it's hypocritical for the director of land protection for the Mohonk Preserve to own a house on the top of the very ridge she is trying to protect.

Thanks, MPNA


Edited by webmaster (08/06/11 02:36 PM)
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

Top
#59461 - 08/04/11 12:42 AM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: Advocacy group]
retroscree Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group

You're equating a village with over 400 residents and its own post office that was first settled in the 1700's with new development of wild-lands?
That's just asinine.
And it's spelled Cragsmoor. If you're going to engage in hyperbolic character assassination, get your facts straight.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cragsmoor,_New_York


No we're saying that it's hypocritical for the director of land protection for the Mohonk Preserve to own a house on the top of the very ridge she is trying to protect.[/quote]
It's not hypocritical for her to live in a town on the National Historic Register that's been in existence for centuries before the Mohonk Preserve.


Edited by webmaster (08/06/11 02:10 PM)

Top
#59468 - 08/04/11 11:38 AM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: retroscree]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: retroscree

It's not hypocritical for her to live in a town on the National Historic Register that's been in existence for centuries before the Mohonk Preserve. You're just being an ass about it.


Retroscree,

We feel that the Director of land protection for the Mohonk Preserve has a responsibility to practice what she and the organization that she represents preaches. If you want to prevent development on the top of the ridge you shouldn't tell others how bad it is to develop those areas while living in that environment yourself. Hypocrisy unfortunately is rampant in many environmental groups. The Nature Conservancy, one of Mohonk Preserve's partners was exposed for selling environmentally sensitive land to their wealthiest donors and were publicly humiliated for their actions.

Thanks, MPNA


Edited by webmaster (08/06/11 02:11 PM)
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

Top
#59469 - 08/04/11 11:56 AM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: Advocacy group]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
New Paltz land deal draws concern
Published: Thursday, August 04, 2011

By WILLIAM J. KEMBLE
Correspondent

NEW PALTZ — The Town Board has been asked to review how much land would be taken off the local tax rolls and to consider potential boundary disputes under a request to subdivide a 1,362-acre parcel so that 874 acres can be sold to the Open Space Institute, which then would turn it over to the Mohonk Preserve.

Town resident Chris Ullrich told the board at a recent meeting that the matter needs to be taken seriously by officials charged with protecting taxpayers' interests.

Ullrich, who has a case pending in state Supreme Court over a boundary dispute brought by the Mohonk Preserve, said the town Open Space Commission does not have enough information on the impact of the application for the subdivision filed by Smiley Brothers Inc., which owns the Mohonk Mountain Hose resort.

Ullrich said the land transfer is "a great idea, but I think it's misguided to go into it blindly and to not really understand what the tax ramifications are."

Open Space Institute Vice President Bob Anderberg said on Wednesday said the amount of taxes involved is not one of the factors that town Planning Board members can use when voting on a subdivision request but that the organization is preparing a report that includes the information.

"We don't believe that the issue of real property taxes comes into play at this time, but we're happy to provide the analysis," Anderberg said.

Ullrich said one concern is a 630-foot overlap of private property along a section that abuts New York City's Catskill Aqueduct.

"That is definitely something that is of concern for the Mohonk Preserve Neighbors Association," he said.

Anderberg said the owner of that property already has voiced support for the subdivision plan.

Ullrich also said information about new structures on the site has been contradictory.

Anderberg said the goal of buying the 874 acres is to preserve open space and that studies would be done before any construction is proposed.

"We're going to take a look at recreational use, parking, trails, how to continue the extensive tradition of agriculture, how to preserve the historic buildings. This is a big task, and it's going to take some time," Anderberg said.
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

Top
#59476 - 08/04/11 04:54 PM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: Advocacy group]
retroscree Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group

No we're saying that it's hypocritical for the director of land protection for the Mohonk Preserve to own a house on the top of the very ridge she is trying to protect.

It's not hypocritical for her to live in a town on the National Historic Register that's been in existence for centuries before the Mohonk Preserve. You're just being an ass about it.


We feel that the Director of land protection for the Mohonk Preserve has a responsibility to practice what she and the organization that she represents preaches. If you want to prevent development on the top of the ridge you shouldn't tell others how bad it is to develop those areas while living in that environment yourself.

Nope - just don't see it. People have to live somewhere. What's more, she's living in an existing town hundreds of years old, not new development, that is protected (via listing on the National Historic Register). The development has already occurred long before the existence of the Preserve. The Preserve is working to prevent further and future private development. If anything, her living in Cragmoor is the embodiment of protecting the ridge. But since you see everything about the Preserve as being perversely evil ever since you were charged with trespass and cutting trees and wood on Preserve property....

Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
Hypocrisy unfortunately is rampant in many environmental groups. The Nature Conservancy, one of Mohonk Preserve's partners was exposed for selling environmentally sensitive land to their wealthiest donors and were publicly humiliated for their actions.

This is completely tangential and just clutters the argument.


Edited by webmaster (08/06/11 02:12 PM)

Top
#59497 - 08/05/11 03:17 AM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: retroscree]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: retroscree
Nope - just don't see it. People have to live somewhere. What's more, she's living in an existing town hundreds of years old, not new development, that is protected (via listing on the National Historic Register). The development has already occurred long before the existence of the Preserve. The Preserve is working to prevent further and future private development. If anything, her living in Cragmoor is the embodiment of protecting the ridge. But since you see everything about the Preserve as being perversely evil ever since you were charged with trespass and cutting trees and wood on Preserve property....

Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
Hypocrisy unfortunately is rampant in many environmental groups. The Nature Conservancy, one of Mohonk Preserve's partners was exposed for selling environmentally sensitive land to their wealthiest donors and were publicly humiliated for their actions.

This is completely tangential and just clutters the argument.


A quick google search revealed at least four houses for sale, one of them built in 2004 MLS#502328. So much for your protection argument. The old stone church in Cragsmoor which is a historic church was built in 1897 which is pretty recent for ulster county history. We agree that people have to "live somewhere" but it is ironic that the Director of Land Protection for the Mohonk Preserve owns a home and rents out rooms for weekend and weekly use on the very ridge she and the Mohonk Preserve are trying to protect. Her contact for this service is even listed as a Mohonk Preserve email.


Edited by webmaster (08/06/11 02:24 PM)
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

Top
#59501 - 08/05/11 11:47 AM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: retroscree]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Thanks for contributing Retroscree. Rest assured local residents care and the many newspaper reports are a testament to this.

Thanks, MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

Top
#59506 - 08/05/11 12:15 PM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: Advocacy group]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Advo, I appreciate that this thread is now in it's correct forum. First off, I do think it is both unethical and potentially dangerous to take it upon yourself to post personal information about other people without their consent. You could have stated The Ms. Garafolini lives in a ridgetop community without resorting to revealing the road she lives on. That goes over the line and I would respectfully request that you edit your post. I'm sure you wouldn't like people people posting exactly where you live and what your businesses name is, would you?

I do have a suggestion for you, in the spirit of having a constructive dialogue. I think many, if not all the people who visit this site would assume that you are looking for some measure of climbers support. If not, then why would you take so much time to continue to post on this site? Therefore, it would be in your best interest to befriend climbers, and not alienate them. Have you ever considered allowing climbers access to your land for climbing purposes? Allowing access to some historic and quality climbing would put you and your organization in a better light, and would also give you a platform to reach out to those climbers in a non threatening manner.

Having climbers arrested for supposedly trespassing on your land when in fact they were on the disputed Mohonk/Ulrich lands only sets up a huge rift between you and those you wish to gain support from. Shouting vauge threats up through the woods at people who, as far as they know by posted signs and access, are on Preserve land suggesting physical harm to those people is definitely not going to win you any support points.

Those are my suggestions. I hope we can discuss them in a constructive way, and keep peoples personal information off the site.

Top
#59518 - 08/05/11 06:30 PM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: Advocacy group]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Advo, you were a tool because you refused to put these posts in the proper forum, not because of your stance aginst the Preserve. I was upset that you were hijacking a climbing forum for your own needs. It's funny, and a little sad,that now that it is in the proper forum, and you have people who would like to discuss your issues on their mertis, all you can do is attack.

Ms. Garafolini may have done exactly what you said, but that still does not give you the right to disseminate her personal information for your own needs. Your point is just as effective by stating that she lives on top of the ridge. You gain no further benefit by stating which town and road she lives on. So why do you resort to those tactics? You've tried to do it with me as well, and at the same time you hide behind a veil of internet anonymity. I'm sure you wouldn't want your profession and your home address linked to this thread or this forum, would you? All I'm saying is that you would get a lot more people to listen to what you have to say if you changed your tactics a little.

Lastly, what does the Access fund have to do with me suggesting you make some friends instead of enemies in the climbing community? I don't think I was advocating trespassing on your land, was I?

Top
#59528 - 08/06/11 02:42 PM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: RangerRob]
webmaster Offline

veteran

Registered: 01/06/00
Posts: 1273
Loc: New Paltz (Kerhonkson, actuall...
Note: I've removed the references to personal information contained in this thread. The board guidelines clearly state:
Quote:
Don't reveal another user's identity or personal information in the forum.
_________________________
evan marks
webmaster@gunks.com
I wish I could read every post...

Top
#59623 - 08/14/11 02:06 PM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: RangerRob]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: RangerRob
Advo, I appreciate that this thread is now in it's correct forum. First off, I do think it is both unethical and potentially dangerous to take it upon yourself to post personal information about other people without their consent. You could have stated The Ms. Garafolini lives in a ridgetop community without resorting to revealing the road she lives on. That goes over the line and I would respectfully request that you edit your post. I'm sure you wouldn't like people people posting exactly where you live and what your businesses name is, would you?

I do have a suggestion for you, in the spirit of having a constructive dialogue. I think many, if not all the people who visit this site would assume that you are looking for some measure of climbers support. If not, then why would you take so much time to continue to post on this site? Therefore, it would be in your best interest to befriend climbers, and not alienate them. Have you ever considered allowing climbers access to your land for climbing purposes? Allowing access to some historic and quality climbing would put you and your organization in a better light, and would also give you a platform to reach out to those climbers in a non threatening manner.

Having climbers arrested for supposedly trespassing on your land when in fact they were on the disputed Mohonk/Ulrich lands only sets up a huge rift between you and those you wish to gain support from. Shouting vauge threats up through the woods at people who, as far as they know by posted signs and access, are on Preserve land suggesting physical harm to those people is definitely not going to win you any support points.

Those are my suggestions. I hope we can discuss them in a constructive way, and keep peoples personal information off the site.



RR, I don't think the following quotes follow Access Fund guidelines. These are prior quotes that you have made.

RangerRob: "You're a tool. Please please let what Talus claimed be true, so that I can stand out on the corner of Cragswood Road with a sign telling everyone who you are. I will also make a shit ton of loud man noises when I climb at the Sunbowl from now on"

RangerRob:" You sound arrogant now, the type of snooty, nose in the air landowner that owns a nice 5 acre lot bordering the preserve "

RangerRob:"Take your filed survey and stick it up your upper class nose."

RangerRob:"My basis for saying that it is currently acceptable to climb at Millbrook is based on the fact that many people do, no one stops them, it has been going on for a lot of years, and there are unportested guidebooks telling people they can climb there."

RangerRob:"I was told to cease and desist when I tried to derail this thread"

RangerRob:"I've said my peace. This whole issue does not deserve any more of my attention. The sooner it dissapears off this climbing website the better."

RangerRob:"I'm not stupid enough to accuse someone of illegal activities in a public forum AG."


And now You ask the following of The Mohonk Preserve Neighbors Association

"Have you ever considered allowing climbers access to your land for climbing purposes? Allowing access to some historic and quality climbing would put you and your organization in a better light, and would also give you a platform to reach out to those climbers in a non threatening manner."

Perhaps a rereading of the Access Fund guidelines is in order......
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

Top
#59624 - 08/14/11 02:15 PM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: Advocacy group]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
For neighbors who have not read the original MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation thread, it is located in the general climbing section (around page 19 or so). It has to date generated over 28,000 views and is currently locked so adding content is not possible. It does contain maps, newspaper articles and other documents that might be of interest to you.

Thanks, MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

Top
#59640 - 08/15/11 12:02 AM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: Advocacy group]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Advo, are you claiming that I now directly represent the Access Fund? What's your source?

Top
#59641 - 08/15/11 01:09 AM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: RangerRob]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
No, just that you consult Access Fund guidelines so that you don't ruin even more access for climbers.
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

Top
#59645 - 08/15/11 08:40 PM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: Advocacy group]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
What the heck are you talking about?? If I'mnot mistaken, I suggested that maybe you should try inviting some climbers onto your property. Even if I had anything to do with the Access Fund, what guideline is that violating?

Top
#59646 - 08/15/11 09:33 PM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: RangerRob]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Try looking at the chronology of events. You start off with an antagonistic attitude only to later suggest that land be opened. This goes against practiced and well established access fund guidelines for obtaining access to private lands.

MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

Top
#59647 - 08/15/11 10:32 PM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: Advocacy group]
Aya Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/18/04
Posts: 754
Loc: Climbing somewhere
goddamnit Rob you're ruining it for everyone. it's all your fault. everything.
_________________________
Gunks T-Shirts!

Top
#59666 - 08/16/11 07:27 PM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: Aya]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Advo...how does making a suggestion to you about allowing some climbers access go against Access Fund guidelines? Please explain that to me. I started off this discussion in thr appropriate forum wanting to open a dialogue with you. But you are avoiding the issues.

Top
#59740 - 08/23/11 03:56 PM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: Advocacy group]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Lets take a look at some of the Smiley legacy in the Shawangunk mountains.

1869 Mountain house purchased (40 guest total)

1879-1910 Mohonk mountain house expanded to 266 guest rooms.

1879 Cliff house hotel open at lake minnewaska

1881 Cliff house hotel expanded to accomodate 225 guests

1887 Wildmere hotel opens at lake Minnewaska

1907 Smiley bros gives easement to NYC ($25,000)for aqueduct allowing the blasting of a crag and the clear cutting, mining of and entire mountain.

1911 Wildmere hotel expanded to accomodate 350 guests

1921 Smiley memorial tower built (Skytop) along with three miles of paths.

1926 5 tennis courts, golf course, baseball diamond and hundreds of Gazebos built at Minnewaska

1998 New $2.8 million 9200 sq. ft. Visitor Center built.

2001 9375sq. ft. refrigerated ice rink opens at Mohonk

2005 30,000 sq. ft. spa opens at Mohonk

Of course this is only a partial list. Don't forget about the old visitor center, the many houses that surround the mountain house hotel, the trailer park, the various mining operations, 80 miles of roads, sewage and water use and cleaning agents associated with the day to day functioning of a hotel, the land sold for development, the mountain house golf course, the gas easements, the electrical easements that scar the ridge etc... Hardly pristine, hardly conservation minded, hardly occurring only in 1869!

MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

Top
#59745 - 08/23/11 05:02 PM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: Advocacy group]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
Lets take a look at some of the Smiley legacy in the Shawangunk mountains.

1869 Mountain house purchased (40 guest total)

1879-1910 Mohonk mountain house expanded to 266 guest rooms.

1879 Cliff house hotel open at lake minnewaska

1881 Cliff house hotel expanded to accomodate 225 guests

1887 Wildmere hotel opens at lake Minnewaska

1907 Smiley bros gives easement to NYC ($25,000)for aqueduct allowing the blasting of a crag and the clear cutting, mining of and entire mountain.

1911 Wildmere hotel expanded to accomodate 350 guests

1921 Smiley memorial tower built (Skytop) along with three miles of paths.

1926 5 tennis courts, golf course, baseball diamond and hundreds of Gazebos built at Minnewaska

1998 New $2.8 million 9200 sq. ft. Visitor Center built.

2001 9375sq. ft. refrigerated ice rink opens at Mohonk

2005 30,000 sq. ft. spa opens at Mohonk

Of course this is only a partial list. Don't forget about the old visitor center, the many houses that surround the mountain house hotel, the trailer park, the various mining operations, 80 miles of roads, sewage and water use and cleaning agents associated with the day to day functioning of a hotel, the land sold for development, the mountain house golf course, the gas easements, the electrical easements that scar the ridge etc... Hardly pristine, hardly conservation minded, hardly occurring only in 1869!

MPNA


[/img]

[/img]

[/img]


[/img]

Thanks, MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

Top
#59746 - 08/23/11 05:06 PM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: Advocacy group]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
That's some mighty fine conservation going on........
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

Top
#59748 - 08/23/11 05:16 PM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: Advocacy group]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
I wonder what the total parking lot footprint is? The one large parking lot that is north west of the hotel seems to have a footprint as large as the hotel. Can anyone figure out how many acres of roads the Smiley family has put in?

Thanks, MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

Top
#59757 - 08/23/11 06:54 PM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: Advocacy group]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
If you take the average of 85 miles of carriage roads at 12' wide (conservative), you would end up with about 124 acres of roadway. This of course does not take into account all of the paved roadway leading to the Mountain House or the many parking lots of both the Mountain House and Mohonk Preserve.
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

Top
#59765 - 08/23/11 10:01 PM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: Advocacy group]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
So, since 1960 they protected 7,000 acres and built on less than two.

That's what I take from what you've written.

Top
#59768 - 08/23/11 11:25 PM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: Mark Heyman]
retroscree Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Additionally, they built a beautiful hotel, lovely and quaint carriage roads and walking paths, and Japanese architecture inspired gazebos scattered about for rest, contemplation, and reflection with spectacular views of nature. They also had the foresight to build a small village to house both owners and employees, eliminating a lot of commuting from the surrounding countryside. The major recent developments mentioned - ice rink, spa, and visitor center - were all judiciously kept within the core developed area of the resort and didn't disturb additional land. All in all it seems pretty well thought out.

Compare that with what it could have been - hundreds of little sub-divided lots replete with logging, quarrying, farming (which rather radically disrupts the land), shacks, barns, little houses on up to McMansions, all with their own water, septic, electric, and access roads - kind of like a lot of the Walkill valley and where AG lives.

I can't think of a stronger and more forceful commitment to conservation. What's more, the majority was accomplished at a time when much of America did not care about conservation.

Top
#59771 - 08/24/11 03:04 AM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: retroscree]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Retro, what do you have against timber harvesting? I think most rational people have come to the conclusion that managing an ecosystem means more then just preserving it. If one just preserves, then one ultimately destroys. Responsible, and indeed traditional management of forests includes disturbance, (timber harvesting). This not only allows for propagation of desired species, but increases biodiversity as a whole.

Besides, we need something to wipe our asses with.

Top
#59779 - 08/24/11 12:08 PM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: RangerRob]
Rickster Online   content
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 845
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Originally Posted By: RangerRob
Retro, what do you have against timber harvesting? I think most rational people have come to the conclusion that managing an ecosystem means more then just preserving it. If one just preserves, then one ultimately destroys. Responsible, and indeed traditional management of forests includes disturbance, (timber harvesting). This not only allows for propagation of desired species, but increases biodiversity as a whole.

Besides, we need something to wipe our asses with.


RR, I think what comes to mind for many folks when they hear the words, timber harvesting or lumbering, are the great swaths of clear cuts we've seen from many a summit throughout the western states and northern Maine. Not, the well thought out, sustainably selective harvesting that you describe and that we now see more often.

Top
#59783 - 08/24/11 02:02 PM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: Rickster]
retroscree Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Exactly. I was talking about the scorched earth form of logging that leaves barren land in its wake.

Top
#59786 - 08/24/11 04:21 PM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: retroscree]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
I have to say - although I know they were installed before concerns about conservation and sustainability came into fashion, I'm particularly impressed with the carriage roads. Built to last!

Imagine how they'd be constructed today, or back in the 1970s .... asphalt, clear cutting to get the huge equipment in, and would need redone every 3 years, or somesuch.

Top
#59788 - 08/25/11 12:33 AM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: Julie]
Rickster Online   content
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 845
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Originally Posted By: Julie
I have to say - although I know they were installed before concerns about conservation and sustainability came into fashion, I'm particularly impressed with the carriage roads. Built to last!

Imagine how they'd be constructed today, or back in the 1970s .... asphalt, clear cutting to get the huge equipment in, and would need redone every 3 years, or somesuch.


Just to be fair, they used some big ass steam driven machines to construct some of those carriage roads. However, you are right. If this was done new today, buy any public park entity, it'd be paved in some way. Probably a one way drive loop with multiple parking at the scenic overlooks.


Edited by Rickster (08/25/11 12:33 AM)

Top
#59794 - 08/25/11 03:47 AM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: Advocacy group]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Lets take a look at some of the Smiley legacy in the Shawangunk mountains.

1869 Mountain house purchased (40 guest total)

1879-1910 Mohonk mountain house expanded to 266 guest rooms.

1879 Cliff house hotel open at lake minnewaska

1881 Cliff house hotel expanded to accomodate 225 guests

1887 Wildmere hotel opens at lake Minnewaska

1907 Smiley bros gives easement to NYC ($25,000)for aqueduct allowing the blasting of a crag and the clear cutting, mining of and entire mountain.

1911 Wildmere hotel expanded to accomodate 350 guests

1921 Smiley memorial tower built (Skytop) along with three miles of paths.

1926 5 tennis courts, golf course, baseball diamond and hundreds of Gazebos built at Minnewaska

1998 New $2.8 million 9200 sq. ft. Visitor Center built.

2001 9375sq. ft. refrigerated ice rink opens at Mohonk

2005 30,000 sq. ft. spa opens at Mohonk

2011 Ridge top Bridge across Mt Rest road.


Of course this is only a partial list. Don't forget about the old visitor center, the many houses that surround the mountain house hotel, the trailer park, the various mining operations, 80 miles of roads, sewage and water use and cleaning agents associated with the day to day functioning of a hotel, the land sold for development, the mountain house golf course, the gas easements, the electrical easements that scar the ridge etc... Hardly pristine, hardly conservation minded, hardly occurring only in 1869!

MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

Top
#59795 - 08/25/11 03:54 AM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: Advocacy group]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
From Mohonk Website:

"Mohonk Mountain House has been family owned since 1869 when Albert Smiley made his original purchase of 280 acres and a ten-room inn. Over a century later, in 1986, Mohonk Mountain House was named a National Historic Landmark. This designation was unique in that it encompassed not only the Mountain House but also 83 other Mohonk buildings"
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

Top
#59797 - 08/25/11 12:31 PM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: Advocacy group]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
Lets take a look at some of the Smiley legacy in the Shawangunk mountains.

1869 Mountain house purchased (40 guest total)

1879-1910 Mohonk mountain house expanded to 266 guest rooms.

1879 Cliff house hotel open at lake minnewaska

1881 Cliff house hotel expanded to accomodate 225 guests

1887 Wildmere hotel opens at lake Minnewaska

1907 Smiley bros gives easement to NYC ($25,000)for aqueduct allowing the blasting of a crag and the clear cutting, mining of and entire mountain.

1911 Wildmere hotel expanded to accomodate 350 guests

1921 Smiley memorial tower built (Skytop) along with three miles of paths.

1926 5 tennis courts, golf course, baseball diamond and hundreds of Gazebos built at Minnewaska

1998 New $2.8 million 9200 sq. ft. Visitor Center built.

2001 9375sq. ft. refrigerated ice rink opens at Mohonk

2005 30,000 sq. ft. spa opens at Mohonk

2011 Ridge top Bridge across Mt Rest road.


Of course this is only a partial list. Don't forget about the old visitor center, the many houses that surround the mountain house hotel, the trailer park, the various mining operations, 80 miles of roads, sewage and water use and cleaning agents associated with the day to day functioning of a hotel, the land sold for development, the mountain house golf course, the gas easements, the electrical easements that scar the ridge etc... Hardly pristine, hardly conservation minded, hardly occurring only in 1869!

MPNA




Undercliff road was built in 1903 and Overcliff road in 1929 and each had to cut across a cliff face and boulder field to create the cross-slope carriage roads.
So here is an updated list.


1869 Mountain house purchased (40 guest total)

1879-1910 Mohonk mountain house expanded to 266 guest rooms.

1879 Cliff house hotel open at lake minnewaska

1881 Cliff house hotel expanded to accomodate 225 guests

1887 Wildmere hotel opens at lake Minnewaska

1903 Undercliff Road construction

1907 Smiley bros gives easement to NYC ($25,000)for aqueduct allowing the blasting of a crag and the clear cutting, mining of and entire mountain.

1911 Wildmere hotel expanded to accomodate 350 guests

1921 Smiley memorial tower built (Skytop) along with three miles of paths.

1926 5 tennis courts, golf course, baseball diamond and hundreds of Gazebos built at Minnewaska

1929 Overcliff Road Constructed

1998 New $2.8 million 9200 sq. ft. Visitor Center built.

2001 9375sq. ft. refrigerated ice rink opens at Mohonk

2005 30,000 sq. ft. spa opens at Mohonk

2011 Ridge top Bridge across Mt Rest road.
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

Top
#59817 - 08/26/11 03:23 PM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: Advocacy group]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Hey AG, can you post that chronology of MMH construction again? I don't think I got the message the first 5 times it appeared in this thread.

Top
#59818 - 08/26/11 05:11 PM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: Mike Rawdon]
retroscree Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: Mike Rawdon
Hey AG, can you post that chronology of MMH construction again? I don't think I got the message the first 5 times it appeared in this thread.

He either thinks he's making some kind of point or he's just talking to himself after no one agreed with him.

Top
#59819 - 08/26/11 06:08 PM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: Mike Rawdon]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: Mike Rawdon
Hey AG, can you post that chronology of MMH construction again? I don't think I got the message the first 5 times it appeared in this thread.


Here it is, hope this helps....


1869 Mountain house purchased (40 guest total)

1879-1910 Mohonk mountain house expanded to 266 guest rooms.

1879 Cliff house hotel open at lake minnewaska

1881 Cliff house hotel expanded to accomodate 225 guests

1887 Wildmere hotel opens at lake Minnewaska

1903 Undercliff Road construction

1907 Smiley bros gives easement to NYC ($25,000)for aqueduct allowing the blasting of a crag and the clear cutting, mining of and entire mountain.

1911 Wildmere hotel expanded to accomodate 350 guests

1921 Smiley memorial tower built (Skytop) along with three miles of paths.

1926 5 tennis courts, golf course, baseball diamond and hundreds of Gazebos built at Minnewaska

1929 Overcliff Road Constructed

1998 New $2.8 million 9200 sq. ft. Visitor Center built.

2001 9375sq. ft. refrigerated ice rink opens at Mohonk

2005 30,000 sq. ft. spa opens at Mohonk

2011 Ridge top Bridge across Mt Rest road.


Thanks, MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

Top
#59829 - 08/27/11 06:34 PM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: Advocacy group]
cbmd Offline
stranger

Registered: 08/03/11
Posts: 4
MPNA/AG, thanks for your initial reply earlier to my questions. I've been away/busy climbing and working, so out of the forum loops...

I never intended or tried to misrepresent the positions or intentions of your group and apologies if my query did so. Kent was kind enough to PM with his personal thoughts, which shed more light on the context. I still think your current efforts are misplaced and unproductive here but that's just one guy's outside view.

More specifically, and especially in light of this thread, I feel that the tone, content, and often juvenile approach to much of the AG/MPNA posts seems completely contradictory to your purpose. As a change-oriented group representing a specific position with the intent of educating (and, I'm assuming, swaying opinion) towards that perspective, you are held to a higher standard of public discourse then the rest of the unwashed masses, like it or not, fair or not. Frankly, were I a landowner who'd signed on to the MPNA, I'd be appalled and disgusted by the conduct of the mouthpiece to which I'd attached my name. And I'd disassociate myself immediately. I truly wonder how many of your members read and approve of the postings...

I strongly believe that alternative and even opposing perspectives are important, even in sparsely populated forums like these. If you want people (especially casual/non-participatory readers) to take you seriously, I'd suggest dramatically altering the tone to a more professional, impersonal tack. The 'dick vs. dick show' is old news on the interwebs (though always somewhat satisfying, true) so I guarantee you'll garner more interest and sympathy with a detached, impersonal approach. Not as much fun but definitely more productive.

Good luck and think on it.

Top
#59864 - 08/29/11 02:22 PM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: cbmd]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
From one of those unwashed masses (literally right now)....WORD!

Top
#59865 - 08/29/11 02:45 PM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: RangerRob]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Thanks cbmd for your constructive critique of our tactics. You state " in light of this thread, I feel that the tone, content, and often juvenile approach to much of the AG/MPNA posts seems completely contradictory to your purpose." could you please give some examples? Also for those neighbors that have not viewed the original MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation thread, it is in general climbing and is just shy of 30,000 views. Please take a look.

Thanks, MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

Top
#60188 - 09/15/11 11:38 PM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: Advocacy group]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1530
Loc: New Jersey
Hello, I do not know anything about these arguments, and the more I read the more questions I have. However having said that I would like to say something as one who has used the Preserve properties for years.

I like to rockclimb, and from the way I see it, if these properties were owned privately there would be no rockclimbing at all ever, period. It is hard enough to climb on state land, and private property owners here are for the most part very difficult to talk to. They have no concern for these things at all, they are unsympathetic in understanding them in anyway. You do not want to be on their property or bother them if you can help it. This may have something to do in part with the way the legal system is set up for accidents and property issues in New York.

That being said, I hope you can understand that as far as I am concerned the Mohonk Preserve is ordained by God so that people like myself can get out of the city and explore God's creation and understand Him better (I really believe this). This was the very reason for why the Preserve was created by the Smileys in the first place, rather than become a race track, and maybe the cliffs turned into a quarry. So for this reason I really have a hard time sympathizing with private property owners who want to argue with the Preserve under any circumstances. For the same reasons I am going to fight for this country, even with all its inconsistencies, is the same reason I would fight for the Preserve, inconsistencies or not. The Preserve and the Smileys have done humanity a great and enormous unrepayable service. And for this we should all be overflowingly and eternally grateful. Those who seek to hinder that work set forth by the Smileys should be eternally ashamed of themselves. If everyone had the same kind of charity and vision for making the world a better place as the Smileys have there would be no fighting. The Smileys have not only helped themselves, their families and their heirs but they have also never forgotten us in that process. I am more than happy to will my property to them, and if they want anything of mine I am more than happy to share it with them, whatever it is.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

Top
#60197 - 09/16/11 01:59 PM Re: MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation Redux [Re: donald perry]
retroscree Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: donald perry
Hello, I do not know anything about these arguments, and the more I read the more questions I have. However having said that I would like to say something as one who has used the Preserve properties for years.

I like to rockclimb, and from the way I see it, if these properties were owned privately there would be no rockclimbing at all ever, period. It is hard enough to climb on state land, and private property owners here are for the most part very difficult to talk to. They have no concern for these things at all, they are unsympathetic in understanding them in anyway. You do not want to be on their property or bother them if you can help it. This may have something to do in part with the way the legal system is set up for accidents and property issues in New York.

That being said, I hope you can understand that as far as I am concerned the Mohonk Preserve is ordained by God so that people like myself can get out of the city and explore God's creation and understand Him better (I really believe this). This was the very reason for why the Preserve was created by the Smileys in the first place, rather than become a race track, and maybe the cliffs turned into a quarry. So for this reason I really have a hard time sympathizing with private property owners who want to argue with the Preserve under any circumstances. For the same reasons I am going to fight for this country, even with all its inconsistencies, is the same reason I would fight for the Preserve, inconsistencies or not. The Preserve and the Smileys have done humanity a great and enormous unrepayable service. And for this we should all be overflowingly and eternally grateful. Those who seek to hinder that work set forth by the Smileys should be eternally ashamed of themselves. If everyone had the same kind of charity and vision for making the world a better place as the Smileys have there would be no fighting. The Smileys have not only helped themselves, their families and their heirs but they have also never forgotten us in that process. I am more than happy to will my property to them, and if they want anything of mine I am more than happy to share it with them, whatever it is.

Quoted to prevent deletion.

Top
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5 >


Moderator:  webmaster 
Sponsored